Boat selection opinions

I started a thread 2 weeks ago seeking your opinions about trawlers in the 34 to 36 ft range and got many replies. After doing some research and reading and digesting your replies here is what I've come up with.

In the order I consider most important:
<ul>[*]34 to 36 ft seems to fit my comfort range and price range: One couple on possible extended cruises (big loop) in the under $75,000 range.[*]Popular boat and configuration, easy to turn over[*]Single diesel engine[*]Generator with AC[*]Little or no exterior teak[*]Walk through transom[*]Island bed configuration in the master stateroom.[/list]Keeping the above in mind as much as possible the #1 boat that probably best fits all the criteria is the 34' Mainship. It does not have the island bed but rather a V berth which I hate, but buying a boat is a compromise. There are many to choose from and they were built in 3 configurations, the only difference being the size of the main saloon and cockpit area.

Another boat that closely meets the above criteria, is slightly larger and more expensive is the 36ft Marine Trader Sundeck. It's unique in that its the only Marine Trander without lots of exterior teak and teak decks. It has no walk through transome but does meet all the other critera nicely and is a little bigger. It is however more difficult to find and is probably the least common of the 36ft Marine Traders. I could find only 3 listed on the east coast, all well north of FL. I have read of some quality issues with Marine Traders, especially the early ones with teak decks so a good marine survey would be a must.

3 other boats that are close in configuration to the 36' Marine Trader Sundeck are the 35' Present Sundeck, 35' Senator Futura Sundeck and the 35 ft Chien HWA aft cabin. These last 3 boats are not common on the west coast of FL and could be a resale issue.

Anybody care to comment

Tim

Why not a Marine Trader 36 sedan that has had the teak decks removed? The exterior teak can be painted over and eliminated from the maintenance headache. Otherwise it has all of your other specs except the island queen.

Yes the Marine Trader 36 Sedan would work nicely, but trying to find one with the teak decks removed would not be easy. And I still have all the other teak to maintain. The MT 34 Sedan would work as well, but again finding one with the teak deck removed would be difficult.

Interestingly Jack Hornor a marine surveyor who contributes articles about various used boats to boat US magazine in reviewing the MT 34 mentioned the exact same problems with the MT that I mentioned in a previous post. In that post, a local marine repair facility I have used in the past mentioned the problems with MT and their teak decks as well as their fuel tanks.

The MT 34 and 36 Sedans seem to be common in FL and perhaps one with the teak decks removed will pop up. I could find no MT 36 Sun Decks, which has everything I want except the walk through transome, listed in FL and only 3 on the whole east coast. Is the 36 sun deck so good nobody wants to sell them or did MT not produce very many? My guess is the latter.

Tim

Defever is out of my price range. Tollycraft don't seem to be very common on the east coast.
Tim

You might look at a Monk 36, or if you can find the earliest version, a MMC 36. The MMC was originally made in taiwan. When it went out of production, the molds were purchased and moved to Canada, where they are made today.

Our first powerboat, after 25 years in sailboats was a MMC 36. Wonderful boat, very seaworthy, island bed aft with v berth forward, nice flying bridge. Very economical Perkins 6 cyl diesel. (about 2 gal/hr as I recall at hull speed).

The only downside was the lavish use of teak on the exterior - handrails, window trim, etc. We had ours in absolute bristol condition after taking it down to bare wood and refinishing it, but that was a lot of work. One thing that could be done on these boats is what the Grand Banks do - simply paint the trim.

Sloboat mentioned the Ocean Alexander 38 and your link shows a beautiful boat indeed. I don't know anything about the Ocean Alexander but from I was able to see from Yacht World it seems like a quality boat if price is any indicator.

RED mentioned the Monk 36 and I think Monk which designed Ocean Alexander are one and the same boats. In any event I like the 36 for it does meet more of my criteria by having a single diesel rather than the twin of the 38. However I don't think these are common boats and may be hard to find so I may have to bend the criteria scale a little if this boat is to be the one. I did notice the 38 has rather small twin diesels which probably would be within 15 to 20% of the fuel burn of the single, maybe even less. But the twin still would have twice the maintenance costs of the single which would include not just the engine but the transmission, props, shafts, cutlass bearings, etc.

Interesting the Monk 36 has a stern thruster. Can someone explain how this works. I know the obvious in that it probably makes it much easier to maneuver this single engine boat in tight quarters, but why a stern thruster instead of a bow thruster? Are there 2, one on the port and one on the starboard side? Is it electric and reliable?

Tim

I recently purchased a 2003 Monk 36 with bow thruster. The standard boat is made without bow or stern thruster, either of these can be added by the owner. I have found most of them have a bow thruster but very few that I know of have a stern thruster. The stern thruster looks much easier to install as it is attached just under the swim platform and doesn't require cutting into the hull for the tunnel as on a bow thruster. I haven't operated*a stern thruster*but I believe the bow thruster*is* more effective. The Monk has quite a large rudder and when turned fully to either side can push the stern around very effectively.
good luck,
Steve Willett
Thibodaux, Louisiana


-- Edited by Steve on Tuesday 21st of April 2009 09:38:20 PM

RED wrote:

One thing that could be done on these boats is what the Grand Banks do - simply paint the trim.

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Actually, very few GB owners paint the teak trim on their boats (as much as some of them would probably like to).* Besides altering the look of the boat it also reduces the value.* Teak that's been painted cannot be un-painted as the primer and paint gets down into the grain.* Sanding the teak down*enough to remove all traces of the primer and paint reduces the size of the wood to the point where it doesn't fit*properly anymore. (I know this from experience.)*

Likewise, removing the teak decks from a GB also reduces its value to 90+ percent of potential buyers.* Most GB buyers put a lot of value (not monetary) in features that make a GB a GB, and teak, or at least some teak, is one of them.* A few years ago there was a GB for sale in our marina that had had its teak deck removed and redone in fiberglass with a very high-quality job.* The boat was for sale for the better part of a year (this was long before the current economic situation) and it finally sold when a buyer said he would buy the boat if the seller reduced the price by the amount it would take*to*install a new teak deck (some $20k at the time).** The seller agreed and the boat had a new deck (from TDS) installed.

I suspect this is a fairly unique situation to Grand Banks.* And there are a few*buyers out there who would put a premium on not having a teak deck on a GB.**Replacing a teak deck can often improve the saleability of many other brands of boats that were built with teak decks.* But it doesn't seem to be the case for GB, at least not from what I've observed and read on the GB owners forums.

-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 22nd of April 2009 10:33:47 AM

timjet wrote:


Interesting the Monk 36 has a stern thruster. Can someone explain how this works.

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If you can afford only*one, a bow thruster is far more useful than a stern thruster.* For all practical purposes, every boat already has a stern thruster in the form of their prop(s) and rudder(s).**Used correctly, they will move the stern either direction you want very briskly.

*A stern thruster by itself would not be of much value to my way of thinking unless you frequently encounterd docking situations where you had very*little*for and aft maneuvering*room and needed to move the stern straight sideways. Of course moving the stern sideways still leaves the bow out there on its own, so you still*have to have some way of getting it up to the dock.

Stern thrusters*can be electric or hydraulic.* They are usually a bolt-on unit*consisting of one or two*propellers protected by a guard--- a tube,*cage, etc.* One manufacturer--- Cap Sante--- make*a stern thruster designed*specifically for*trawlers with semi-planing hulls like GB, CHB,*etc which have very shallow*draft sterns.

Personally I*would not find the presence of*just a*stern thruster anything to*get excited about in a boat I was potentially interested in.* A bow thruster, yes.* A stern thruster, no, since boat already has one*in*the presence of a rudder.

There is an advantage to having BOTH a*bow and stern*thruster in that this configuration allows the boat to be moved straight sideways*up to or away from a dock.*

The stern thrusters seem to get installed because people "just gotta have" a thruster, but don't want the expense of hauling and having the bow thruster installed.* Some of the stern thruster kits just take a couple of holes through the transom above the WL, so they can be installed in the water by the owners.

But as Marin says, you already have a stern thruster - it's the prop and rudder.* You can already make the stern move sideways.* But the bow pretty much stays put unless you have that hole cut through the hull up in the bow.

Sounds like the stern thruster is a less than an optimal way to move the boat around.
Thanks for the info.

Tim

** *** * Although not a true trawler, if I were looking for a boat on the E. Coast, I would look into the plethora of lobster boats. They are usually powered to run at a less economical 12-15 knots, but can run all day at eight knots at about 4gph, with the option to get up and run when you like. You will find them in many configurations, as most are custom, and you should find many in your price range. Just another thought.** * * * * * Carey

Although I've never seen an ugly boat in my life, I have to vote heavily with Cary on this one. To my eye, lobster boats have the classic lines, not to mention they will perform all kinds of missions. Carey is right on with the speed statement. Run all day at 8 knots or against the tide and current at 12/15+. they truly are a great boat!

I'll keep an eye out for the lobster boats but in Tampa I doubt I'll find many. One very important issue for me is the ease of resale. This may be a problem with a custom made boat without a well known name ever though it may be superior in many respects.

Tim

timjet wrote:

Yes the Marine Trader 36 Sedan would work nicely, but trying to find one with the teak decks removed would not be easy. And I still have all the other teak to maintain. The MT 34 Sedan would work as well, but again finding one with the teak deck removed would be difficult.

Interestingly Jack Hornor a marine surveyor who contributes articles about various used boats to boat US magazine in reviewing the MT 34 mentioned the exact same problems with the MT that I mentioned in a previous post. In that post, a local marine repair facility I have used in the past mentioned the problems with MT and their teak decks as well as their fuel tanks.

The MT 34 and 36 Sedans seem to be common in FL and perhaps one with the teak decks removed will pop up. I could find no MT 36 Sun Decks, which has everything I want except the walk through transome, listed in FL and only 3 on the whole east coast. Is the 36 sun deck so good nobody wants to sell them or did MT not produce very many? My guess is the latter.

Tim

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Why do the decks need to be removed already? You could buy the boat and have any yard remove the decks and have the brightwork painted if that's what you wanted. I have painted over the brightwork on my windows and have left the cap rails and doors in varnish as well as the hatches but they are normally covered with weather cloth so no maintenance there. Keep in mind many boats that have the teak decks don't have leaks. The nice thing about the covered side deck sedans is that the only exposed decking is forward and really is the only area that normally needs to be dealt with. The best feature to us is the fact that we can leave the windows open in bad weather.

I believe the style of trawler you have is called the Europa and Marine Trader made a bunch. There are several for sale in the FL area. I am in the preliminary stages of searching for a boat so I am trying to create in my mind the perfect boat. That perfect boat would have no teak because in FL it's just too much work to keep up. Painting over the teak is an option and it sounds like you have selectively painted certain areas. Teak decks are nice looking and feel good under foot and as long as there is no leaks or maintenance issues then I would be OK with this. However, MT has a known issue with leaks in their teak decks and since I am in the preliminary stages I am looking elsewhere. I'm not sure the cost associated with replacing a teak deck is worth it unless I factor that in the purchase price. In the end a 34 or 36 Europa MT may be what I end up with because they satisfy many of my requirements. And they look good.

Tim

Tim, I would say your short list is a good one and very realistic. To really get the boat your want, you may have to travel for it and you may have a long trip to bring it home. I live on the Texas Gulf Coast. If I found a boat I really liked in Maine(Which there happens to be a very nice MT36 Sundeck there), I would buy it and bring it down. You have the "luxury" of being in FLorida and "looking in both directions".

WIth all that said, my short list of boats is the same as yours as my requirements are the same as yours. The Island berth is not that important to me as I lived on a boat with a V-berth for 5 years and it was quite comfy. If the boat is a sedan/Europa in that size range, you are sacraficing space for the island berth.

My perfect boat....The Heritage West Indian 36. The link below is the only one on Yachtworld. It seems a little rough on the outside but the inside looks pretty good and that engine is not original issue and is "newer" all for a VERY good price. They only made something like 60 of these. Anyway, they seem to be roomy and damn good looking. ANd if it means anything, coming from a sailing background they were designed by Charlie Morgan.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=2056841&ybw=&units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=59909&url=

I also notice they are calling it a 39.* It is a 36.* Maybe the broker added the swim platform or the bowsprit to the length.

-- Edited by Baker on Monday 27th of April 2009 11:43:09 AM

John:

That Indian has a published cruise of 4 kts and a WOT of 6 kts. I'd get sick of watching all the kayaks passing me. Looks pretty rough to me.

Europa is a term specific to Grand Banks but is widely misused to describe the extended flybridge sedans of other makes. Keep in mind the huge difference between the 34 and the 36 is the second stateroom. The prices I've seen for forward deck removal and glass work is about 5k.

My 36 will be on the market sometime this year. My crew is getting larger and the boat isn't so it will be time to up-size soon. My next boat will be another extended flybridge sedan though.

It's a FL boat, the teak always looks rough.

Walt, that is just ignorant broker listing BS. There is a lot of mistakes in that listing.

Daddyo, Europa might have been "coined" by GB, but it has become a general term to describe a style of sedan. Just like Crescent wrench....Crescent is a brand.....it is really just an "adjustable wrench.

Tim, I called on the boat. The broker is under the impression that the boat will be taken off the market by the owner. I didn't ask why as I didn't feel it was my business. But that boat would be a steal at that price. I also googled Heritage west indian and noted he had listed it "by owner" for a price of $25k!!! Anyway, I don't think it will matter as it doesn't appear it will be for sale anymore.

" noted he had listed it "by owner" for a price of $25k!!!"

Lots of boats in FL are $25K, the question is how much do you value hundreds (perhaps athousand) of hours of your time , and how versed in vessel rebuilding are you?

Daddyo wrote:

Europa is a term specific to Grand Banks but is widely misused to describe the extended flybridge sedans of other makes. Keep in mind the huge difference between the 34 and the 36 is the second stateroom. The prices I've seen for forward deck removal and glass work is about 5k.

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The "Europa" style has been a deal breaker for me because you need to go up a ladder to get to the fly bridge.* On a sundeck or trunk cabin you typically go up two steps to the sundeck and two or three to the fly bridge.* With a Europa there is a ladder and sometimes a hatch or hole to get through.* It is a deal breaker because I can't bring two cocktails and a plate of crackers and sardines to The Admiral up a ladder, and I can do it easily via steps w/ railings.

Also, Marine Trader isn't considered to be built as well as some other boats like GB etc.* Blown on matting or core below the waterline, I'm not sure.* But considered sub-standard my some surveyors.

*

Egregious wrote:

The "Europa" style has been a deal breaker for me because you need to go up a ladder to get to the fly bridge.*

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Depends on the size and make*of the boat.* On larger Europa (or Europa-style if you prefer) boats it's not uncommon to have a companionway up to the boat deck.* But in the 36'- 42'*range, yes, a ladder is pretty typical.* However I have seen some that have a sort of a stairway-ladder.* The slant and tread size is such that you can walk up it like a set of stairs even though the construction is not as bulky and space-demanding as a proper companionway.* On the ones I've seen you could certainly go up top with both hands full unless the water was rough.

*

Marin wrote:


Egregious wrote:

The "Europa" style has been a deal breaker for me because you need to go up a ladder to get to the fly bridge.*

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Depends on the size and make*of the boat.* On larger Europa (or Europa-style if you prefer) boats it's not uncommon to have a companionway up to the boat deck.* But in the 36'- 42'*range, yes, a ladder is pretty typical.* However I have seen some that have a sort of a stairway-ladder.* The slant and tread size is such that you can walk up it like a set of stairs even though the construction is not as bulky and space-demanding as a proper companionway.* On the ones I've seen you could certainly go up top with both hands full unless the water was rough.

*

The one we chartered was a 36' GB*Europa.* Great for a couple, but getting up and down from the fly bridge was a major pain.* The sucker was heavy and handled well in heavy seas, but not so much in a following sea probably because of my refusal to slow down...

*

Egregious wrote:

The sucker was heavy and handled well in heavy seas, but not so much in a following sea probably because of my refusal to slow down...

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Your speed had nothing to do with it (unless you could have added enough power to semi-plane your way faster than the waves).* Slaba*sed boats like the GB get shoved all over the place in a following sea--- it's the nature of the beast.* The slower you go the worse it gets.*

For rough water work it's not the kind of boat you want (nor is any flat-transomed boat).* Which is why boats like GBs, CHBs, etc. are*coastal cruisers, not open-ocean boats.** For that you want a double-ender or at least something with a rounded stern like a Willard, Krogen, Nordhavn, etc.

*

I haven't had the pleasure of a round stern in a following sea, so I don't know how much better they are than a square stern. I have been in the biggest following seas the Georgia Strait can build up in my squared off trawler without any of what Marin describes, so I presume that would only occur offshore where the seas can get really big. For coastal cruising, where you get to wait out really bad weather and its accompanying big seas, the choice of stern configuration is usually made for other reasons. If you want a vessel for serious offshore work, then consider the possibility of better handling with a rounded stern. I really don't think it would be a priority for most. Iwould want a sail boat for serious offshore work in any event.

Everyone I know with a flat-butt trawler-type boat--- GB, CHB, you name it, single or twin--- bitches heavily about coming back into Bellingham Bay on a windy day in a following sea, and the Georgia Strait can make Bellingham Bay on a bad day look like a millpond. So I don't know why your boat--- which looks like it has the same flat, broad-a*s transom as all these others--- should be any different. Maybe you go fast enough to outrun the waves.....? Or maybe it weighs so much that the seas can't push it around much?

Our GB36 weighs almost 28,000 pounds fully loaded but four to six foot following or quartering waves in Bellingham Bay keep me busy as hell at the wheel as they seem to do everyone else with this configuration of boat.* People I know with autopilots say they have to turn them off and steer by hand because the autopilot can't*keep up with*what the following waves are doing to the boat.* Perhaps one difference is that the waves in Bellingham Bay are extremely close together and very steep regardless of their height.* Maybe they're much*more rolling out on the Strait and so don't push a boat around as much--- I've only been on the Strait on relatively nice days.

On the other hand, people like Carey with his lobsterboat simply have to add power and get on up to 12 to 15 knots or more*and they have no real problems at all.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of June 2010 11:16:19 PM

Marin:
Probably weight and speed combined, 7.5 to 8kn, 44000 lbs.
I have a great set of pictures taken when I was single handing going up past Texada in a 40kn SE blow. Put the autopilot on and went to the stern where my inflatable on a short tether was trying to surf up beside the boat on 7 ft waves. No slewing that the autopilot couldn't handle, no burying of the transom. the waterline across the stern is at the swimgrid in calm conditions. In rough, it was moving up and down another 6 inches max. So if I have to go out in a blow like that I much prefer going downwind. Going a rt angles to it is impossible. All the furniture wants to slide side to side, all the lockers want to empty onto the floor, and the dog gets sick. Pounding into it takes a lot of energy. Last Sept, tried to get to Victoria from Sidney Island agaist a 40 kn blow for the Labour Day Wooden Boat thing. I could take it, the boat could, but neither wife nor dog could as the waves were very steep and close together. Turning around was a challenge, but once we got it on the stern the crew and the boat were much happier.