Tranny fluid as fuel additive

Speaking of "stupid boating tricks" How about thye suggestion I've seen from some people to add a few gallons of gasoline to diesel fuel for quicker starts and better performance?

Fuel ( gas or diesel) is a commodity that comes out of a pipeline with specifications that meet a minimum for sale.

The distribution terminal is "supposed" to add whatever it required for future use,and remove the entrapped water.

Taking a precaution , from a BAJA filter as it is taken aboard, killing bugs , adding lubricity or secondary water/crud filtering is for the fuel user to do.

Hope springs eternal , but the boat stops with bad fuel.

Sam said:

It was explained to me this way, and it makes some sense: We all have used diesel to clean various engine parts, right. Why? Because it excellent at removing grease and oil. From what I understand, high sulfur diesel had lubricating properties where the LS diesel does NOT (or not much anyway). Without the HS diesel, the rods within each injector and the distribution pump components will wear much faster. Also, if an injector is NOT atomizing well, the LS diesel can wash the cylinder wall clean of the film of oil and cylinder wall will become scored.

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You were delivered an explanation by someone who has not learned anything about diesel fuel since the 1980s.

One of the best cleaners to remove grease and carbon and crud from your hands is clean lube oil. Does that mean it doesn't do a good job of lubrication?

You can believe any mythology you want but please, don't post it here as if it is factual information. Your source is so unreliable and uninformed that I wouldn't take his word for it if I asked what time it was.

rwidman said:

Speaking of "stupid boating tricks" How about thye suggestion I've seen from some people to add a few gallons of gasoline to diesel fuel for quicker starts and better performance?

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Well just so you know, adding gasoline to the diesel was in the owner's manual for my old 1981 VW diesel Rabbit. It was used as an anti-gel and I believe it said 3 gallons of gas in the 15 gallon diesel tank for winter.
This was the manufacturer's recommendation.
So don't be so quick to judge.

The reason I won't put tranny fluid in my diesel is because I worked with bearing design engineers for many years and they all cringed when they had to design or apply bearings that were lubricated with tranny fluid. It was not the greatest lubricant and reduced bearing life.

My '68 Mercedes 220 diesel also called for a gallon of gasoline per tankful in climates where temperatures could fall below 0'F. I regularly did this when traveling northern New England in winter not knowing if that night's motel allowed plugging in block heaters.

Sam said:

From what I understand, high sulfur diesel had lubricating properties where the LS diesel does NOT sam

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Your understanding is incorrect. I have purchased millions of gallons of low sulfur fuel for old and new diesels alike. The "new" diesel fuels do just fine and meet the most rigorous of engine builders specs and related warranties - without aftermaket additives.

Back in the day when engine vacuum was used to down shift an auto trans the rubber diaphragm would sometime get a pin hole which would allow ATF to get into the fuel by way of the Carb intake. At first it was unnoticeable but as time went on a couple of things would happen. First was that the trans needed a quart of oil every one and w while but there were no leaks. Then not long after that the hole would get a little bigger and the engine would trail a bit of smoke. Then the trans would not down shift even if it was full of ATF. Then the smoke out the tail pipe looked like a Mosquito Control Truck spraying the neighborhood. Then someone figured out what was wrong and replaced the vacuum switch on the front of the Transmission pan and all was well. But not really, from that point on depending on how much ATF went through that engine the engined burned oil. The cause was that ATF had glazed the cylinder walls. Only a complete tear down and deglazing cured the problem.

Moral of the story ATF belongs in the Transmission not the fuel supply.

And yes we did use 30 wt non detergent oil in the old Lawn Boy but that was because no one wanted to spend $.50 for a small can (6 or 8 oz) of 2 cycle oil when a quart of 30 W cost $.35. Not because it was good for the engine but because it was cheap and it was only a lawn mower.

One other interesting thing with the old 2 cycles is that Saab and DKW had 2 cycle engines in their cars as well as several other companies. Both had oil tanks that fed the carburetor through a metered jet at the throttle base of the carb. Couple of things. Folks here in the US didn't like the light coming on that said you were low on oil so they just ignored it and the other was that the orifice in the jet would get clogged because some folks were creative (sound familiar) and used old drain oil in the tanks instead of clean new oil. Both resulted in an over heated frozen engine.

Brooksie said:

My '68 Mercedes 220 diesel also called for a gallon of gasoline per tankful in climates where temperatures could fall below 0'F.

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That was to help prevent the fuel from gelling, it also reduced the lubricity considerably but since it was just an occasional thing the increased wear probably never showed up.

One thought. Adding ATF to your truck or car that runs on diesel can run the risk of heavy fines by DOT. Makes the diesel look like off road stuff....

RickB said:

That was to help prevent the fuel from gelling, it also reduced the lubricity considerably but since it was just an occasional thing the increased wear probably never showed up.

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The TDI VW's have had an issue with their fuel delivery system in the last several years. The early TDI's have had several pump failures. These are real expensive repairs because when it finally fails it has been failing for quit some time by destroying itself. So by the time it does fail little metal filings have been through the system including the injectors and into the cylinders of the engine. Cost is some where around $5-7 k for the repair.

I mention this because folks jumped on VW as the culprit due to low lubricity not being taken into account when the fuel pumps were built. So there was a big push from some of the VW blogs to add an additive. Yes there are at least two revised fuel injection pumps since the first failure so this didn't help VW. But it turns out the real problem each and every time has been that some where some how gasoline has been introduced into the system by mistake. Either at the station where the diesel was bought or by the attendant at the station or by the owner or someone that borrowed the car from the owner. In the case of the service stations it was just negligence on either the driver of the delivery truck or at the terminal. It seems that in this country some terminals have only one pipe that goes from the big tanks to the trucks and the selection is made between grades of gas and diesel up stream from the end of the pipe. So anything lingering in the pipe is sent on with the next product. In gas it isn't' a problem high test to reg or mid range all mix OK. Diesel into gas is not a problem but some time gas into diesel can be. Just depends on how much is there.

I check the fuel filter on every fuel filter change to see if there is any hint of metal. Replacing the pump with a new one is under $1k before hand. Beats the hell out of $7k after. So far 70k and no silver lining in the filter.

JD said:

But it turns out the real problem each and every time has been that some where some how gasoline has been introduced into the system by mistake.

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That is a fascinating story.

I had one of the first TDIs and ran it till it literally wore out after over a quarter million miles of Montana, Idaho, and Washington driving. It still had the original turbo and fuel pump ... but to be honest the turbo was beyond contributing much when it finally went to the junkyard.

I burned over a thousand gallons of Jet-A in that thing too without any problem. I just didn't burn it exclusively so lack of lubricity was never a factor. But, no matter how cold it got - and the Bitterroot Valley got really cold - I never considered adding gasoline, or any other magic sauce - it just isn't necessary.

Greetings,
Mr. Rick B. Shouldn't you be burning Jet-A in a Jetta?

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. Rick B. Shouldn't you be burning Jet-A in a Jetta?

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I thought that was why they put that sticker on it ... I just couldn't figure out why they put 2 Ts in Jet ...

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. Rick B. Shouldn't you be burning Jet-A in a Jetta?

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We do you caught me.

Just kidding. I don't need the NCHP at my door.

no matter how cold it got - and the Bitterroot Valley got really cold - I never considered adding gasoline, or any other magic sauce - it just isn't necessary.

However Da Book on my 82 Diesel Rabbit explained the use of up to 10% gasoline to assist in cold weather.

Just a glow plug mechanical engine, nothing fancy.

FF said:

However Da Book on my 82 Diesel Rabbit explained the use of up to 10% gasoline to assist in cold weather..

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Some people assume that that advice would automatically carry over to a marine diesel engine of a different brand. That's how some of the "stupid boating tricks" get started.

FF said:

no matter how cold it got - and the Bitterroot Valley got really cold - I never considered adding gasoline, or any other magic sauce - it just isn't necessary.

However Da Book on my 82 Diesel Rabbit explained the use of up to 10% gasoline to assist in cold weather.

Just a glow plug mechanical engine, nothing fancy.

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But that engine had a mechanical fuel injection pump not an electrical high pressure pump like the TDI. Also the pump is not the same on early TDIs. This just started since the 2009 version TDI that meets the new EPA specs. The problem was thought to be the material used in the high pressure pumps so Bosch jumped up with several mods. But when the dust settled it was gas that had been introduced into the fuel and that is what caused the problem.

Jet A in a Jetta .. I love that and several of JDs posts (especially #37) has been very interesting. #37 took me WAY back w the Saab and DKW 2 stroke cars. JD do you remember the Javelin Jupiter? Sure glad somebody started this thread.

In the old days common sense usually was able to keep you on track but now things are so complicated more often look'in at da book has better advice. But common sense should tell us that the diesel fuel available at the pump should be just fine and not need ATF or any other additives to perform well in our engines. I've never put anything but BioBore and StaBill in my diesel and to my knowledge never had a problem.

JD said:

But that engine had a mechanical fuel injection pump not an electrical high pressure pump like the TDI. Also the pump is not the same on early TDIs. This just started since the 2009 version TDI that meets the new EPA specs. The problem was thought to be the material used in the high pressure pumps so Bosch jumped up with several mods. But when the dust settled it was gas that had been introduced into the fuel and that is what caused the problem.

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Those were Bosch "VE" style injection pumps. Those pumps were also used on some of the early Volvo marine diesels. They were also used on the 89-93 Dodge Cummins trucks.

"So anything lingering in the pipe is sent on with the next product. In gas it isn't' a problem high test to reg or mid range all mix OK. Diesel into gas is not a problem but some time gas into diesel can be. Just depends on how much is there. Vinny"

Years ago, while representing a fuel supplier in court I was shocked to learn that the allowable tolerance for cross-contamination in the tanks was 10%. That was not for the various grades of gasoline, but for diesel - gas.

And lest anyone forget Diesel Power 101, lesson #1; Diesel fuel is rated by its ability to rapidly "self ignite" in the combustion chamber. That characteristic is called "ignition delay." It is a measure of the length of time between start of injection and start of combustion. That characteristic is described by its "cetane rating." A high cetane rating equates to a rapid onset of combustion. Good diesel fuel ignites very quickly.

Gasoline is by design really hard to ignite in the conditions found in the combustion chamber of a diesel engine. Octane and cetane ratings are diametric opposites ... we want diesel to ignite rapidly in hot compressed air, we do not want gasoline to do that. A high octane rating means the gasoline is highly resistant to igniting from heat of compression alone.

So, gasoline is there to thin out the diesel when its cold - thin diesel in a hot pump isn't a good thing.

Another issue, which should interest those with a strong aversion to gasoliine powered inboards because of the fire and explosion risks, is the fact that mixing gasoline with diesel in a 1 percent mix (1 gallon of gas in 100 gallons of diesel) will lower the flashpoint from 100F (for onroad diesel that most recreational marinas sell) to 68F. That makes the diesel just as fire and explosion prone as gasoline in your non ignition protected and non bilge vented diesel engine room. Think about that one for a while.

koliver said:

"So anything lingering in the pipe is sent on with the next product. In gas it isn't' a problem high test to reg or mid range all mix OK. Diesel into gas is not a problem but some time gas into diesel can be. Just depends on how much is there. Vinny"

Years ago, while representing a fuel supplier in court I was shocked to learn that the allowable tolerance for cross-contamination in the tanks was 10%. That was not for the various grades of gasoline, but for diesel - gas.

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I read someplace when researching this particular problem that this is not the case in Europe. VW said that the lines from the various tanks run down to the pump directly from each tank and the pump is right at the tank car / truck fill. So in effect the cross contamination is non existent in Europe. But it turned out to be contamination in this country plain and simple. There was one case where the truck driver had dumped a 500 Gal compartment of gas into the service stations diesel tanks by accident.

Brooksie said:

Many fleets & farmers have been adding filtered waste engine oil to their fuel for decades with no ill effects. I would not be so sure this is a bad idea.

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Many people did that in the past with the old mechanical engines. It was a simple method of "disposing" of the used oil..... Nowadays, I don't think it would be wise to get caught doing so... EPA would freak out over it. If you are running one of the newer engines with an ECM....you could very well damage the engine...or at a minimum cause a complete protective shutdown, then you have a mess on your hands emptying a fuel tank and everything up the injectors and sensors....

Personally....the only thing I will put in my diesel tank is "diesel"....unless its an approved formula that will improve the engine's performance or protect the fuel....from bugs, etc...

manyboats said:

Jet A in a Jetta .. I love that and several of JDs posts (especially #37) has been very interesting. #37 took me WAY back w the Saab and DKW 2 stroke cars. JD do you remember the Javelin Jupiter? Sure glad somebody started this thread.

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Sorry to say I missed ever seeing or working on that car. I went on line to see some of the pictures and in ti's race pictures it looks like it cornered like a TR-2. The car looks a bit like a TR. But a boxer engine. I never knew the Brits to have such leanings and water cooled at that.

I did have a DKW Junior Wagon. Had it as a winter driver so that my Porsche could stay in the garage when there was ice and snow on the road. Loved the roller bearing cranks in these engines. The early Porsche race engines as in the 1300 Spider Super and the 1600 Spider Super had roller bearing cranks as well. The only thing that kept these engines from turning 9 - 10k was they couldn't get the valve springs to close the valves fast enough. Hemi heads with valve cut outs in the tops of the pistons back in the 50's.

JD said:

I read someplace when researching this particular problem that this is not the case in Europe. VW said that the lines from the various tanks run down to the pump directly from each tank and the pump is right at the tank car / truck fill. So in effect the cross contamination is non existent in Europe. But it turned out to be contamination in this country plain and simple. There was one case where the truck driver had dumped a 500 Gal compartment of gas into the service stations diesel tanks by accident.

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Not sure... but I think the term "pipe" was meant to mean "pipeline" from refinery to whereever...not at gas stations...although there could be sone comingling there too

When I took a tour of a refinery...they showed large inflatable balls sent through pipeline to separate the different grades of gas/diesel. When asked was there sloshing around the balls and mixing...the tour guide said "yup"....

JD said:

............. There was one case where the truck driver had dumped a 500 Gal compartment of gas into the service stations diesel tanks by accident.

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They did that where I worked once but the other way around. Diesel in the gasoline tank. Every truck (small trucks, vans and pickups) that took on fuel that day smoked and stalled a few miles down the road.

psneeld said:

Not sure... but I think the term "pipe" was meant to mean "pipeline" from refinery to whereever...not at gas stations...although there could be sone comingling there too

When I took a tour of a refinery...they showed large inflatable balls sent through pipeline to separate the different grades of gas/diesel. When asked was there sloshing around the balls and mixing...the tour guide said "yup"....

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I was talking at the storage tanks that the oil companies use. For instance Sun Oil or Exon has a depot from which it sends its trucks to all of the service stations within a certain district. I was referring to the filling of those trucks. They carry somewhere about 7,500 gallons in them. It is compartmentalized by smaller amounts. That is controlled by the pipes that come to the bottom of the truck and connect by way of valves to the main drain that is connected to the tops of the underground tanks in those big covers we see at the side of the drive way. All compartments can be routed through the meter that is there as well. So if the gas station getting the fuel may or may not be able to take all 5,000 gallons into its tanks the driver would dump a 3,000 compartment and then meter out of a 2,000 compartment for about 1,000 gallons then stick the tanks to see where they were at. He may then decide to dump the rest of the 2k or meter out 500 gallons and re stick the tanks. I worked at my father gas station for a long time as a kid and checking the trucks when they got there was my job. You check that the driver hasn't stopped off at a friends and is shorting you 500 gallons. Then checking to see if they were empty was another job. You didn't want them leaving with 500 gallons that you paid for. Not the best job when it was 20* and snowing. But as a kid it was cool to be allowed up on the top of the tanker truck and open the hatches to look inside.

The pumps at a gas station are connected directly to the underground system of tanks. There is no way to cross feed from one tank to the other. That is either done by putting the incorrect product into the the tank or by using a pump to transfer the product from one to another like a bilge pump is used.

We had 16k of gas under the ground and we kept them close to full. So when we sold 6k we would order a load for the next day.