Sampson Post & Capstan

I've looked at a lot of commercial purse seiners and combination boats in our marina and none of them use the bow eye method as none of them have bow eyes.

"What do the commercial guys do?"

We use adequate scope and all chain. Some small boats use wire and chain but scope and enough weight to form a catenary to absorb shock is what it is all about. Everything else is an attempt to make up for inadequate ground tackle.

True WIlly, but some*have pleasure vessels that approach or exceed the size of "commercial." I'd rather mimic a commercial vessel when it comes to anchoring and ground tackle. The wind blows and the waves wave equal for both.

"The wind blows and the waves wave equal for both."

But recreational boats will Chose to anchor out .

Most of the commercials like tugs or tankers anchor to wait for a berth or a similar operation reason.There manned and a watch is kept.

The salvage platforms , and rig anchor boats use totally different gear , for operational reasons.

No question many, if not most rec boats are under sized in the anchoring selection , but it seems to work fine , even in Stoopid situations.

I have seen 12 -20 boats tied up in a raft ( 35 to 50loa) with only a single anchor holding the lot ! When a thunderstorm calls an end boat may drop a second anchor (watch farb size) to stop the swing.

Amazing !!!

the problem with half hitches, is getting them lose if there is anything pulling on them! in my youth, fishing on my dad`s troller is se alaska, i was never allowed to use half hitches...my orders were to wrap the line around the cleat one complete time, until it was binding on itself, then a couple of figure eights...if the wind was blowing, 3 figure eights! and i was always told when i asked abt the use of*half hitches, that if we went to mexico for a month, i could add a half hitch! some things one does`nt forget!
another thing...commercial fisherman never use what we call 'yachty talk', or 'salty talk'*in conversations...terms like 'anchor rode', chain rode, gypsy, capstan, anchor windless, and so on. on commercial boats, we had an anchor winch, anchor rope/line,*chain, anchor chain is just 'chain', the pilot house is*refered to as the wheelhouse. the guy that runs the boat is called the 'skipper, and that*thing we usually towed behind us, was called a 'skiff', and so on...when i was in grade school in se alaska, i read all kinds of books abt rescues at sea, coast guard epics abt what they did way out there, salty books abt the sailing ships hundreds of yrs ago, etc, so i learned all the terms! if one were to use term/words like those mentioned, on a commercial boat, i think your name would be changed to 'greenhorn' real quick!' kinda like using the correct words for everything on a sail boat! i have some friends that use all the wrong words just to bug the*nautically correct sailboat guys! i enjoy reading all the letters/problems, and sometimes reply...seems sometimes problems get hashed over so many times, it`s crazy, but entertaining...c**

-- Edited by clyde on Wednesday 8th of April 2009 11:49:52 PM

Don't go out on a sailboat until you learn what that "salty talk" like

GYBE HO

means!!

You could end up very DEAD!

FF

Hey Willy,
I love your Northhill anchor. I've never been able to find one to buy. I think they were designed specifically for flying boats. I wouldn't be surprised if the designer was given the task to make it lighter than a Danforth. I think it is and also I think it will set quickly and not bury itself. Whats your experience Willy?

Eric Henning

So that's what that anchor is called.. I have two of them, one very large which I plan to use as a storm anchor and one small, smaller than the one in Willys photo, for day use.

I think they were designed specifically for flying boats.

No Northhil's were cast steel in some versions , and stamped in others.

The flying anchors are all non magnetic SS , to not screw with the boats compass or Auto pilot.

They fold for EZ stowage inside the aircraft.

FF

Many fishermen weld or have welded Northill anchors here in Alaska.
I saw an anchor rode storage system the other day I've never seen before. The boat had 2 tall samson posts transversly accros the fore deck about 2 1/2 feet apart. The mostly nylon anchor rode was wraped around the 2 posts. It looked a bit like a mess on the deck and I can imagine it being not too handy at times. Every time the rain stopped it would dry out and that may be some or most of the reason such a system was employed.
Larry,* Whats been your experience w the Northill anchor?

Eric Henning

clyde wrote:

another thing...commercial fisherman never use what we call 'yachty talk', or 'salty talk'*in conversations...terms like 'anchor rode', chain rode, gypsy, capstan, anchor windless, and so on. on commercial boats, we had an anchor winch, anchor rope/line,*chain, anchor chain is just 'chain', the pilot house is*refered to as the wheelhouse. the guy that runs the boat is called the 'skipper, and that*thing we usually towed behind us, was called a 'skiff', and so on...when i was in grade school in se alaska, i read all kinds of books abt rescues at sea, coast guard epics abt what they did way out there, salty books abt the sailing ships hundreds of yrs ago, etc, so i learned all the terms! if one were to use term/words like those mentioned, on a commercial boat, i think your name would be changed to 'greenhorn' real quick!' kinda like using the correct words for everything on a sail boat! i have some friends that use all the wrong words just to bug the*nautically correct sailboat guys! i enjoy reading all the letters/problems, and sometimes reply...seems sometimes problems get hashed over so many times, it`s crazy, but entertaining...c**

-- Edited by clyde on Wednesday 8th of April 2009 11:49:52 PM

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Yeah, those nautical terms get me some weird looks from family & friends. I spent the best part of my younger days on Highland Bayou (Gulf Freeway & Highway 6, near Hitchcock Texas) at my Grandfather's camp. First boat was a sunk then bailed out wood skiff & 5 horse Elgin that Uncle Walter gave to me & my brother. Only stuff we had was ropes, winches (on boat trailers), oars, and regular gas. No capstans, gypsies, rode etc ad nauseum. Now that I'm a big time trawler owner I've started w/ the nautical terms; hence the odd looks from those who've known me from my skiff days. Maybe its best to go back to the old speak that my nautically uneducated crew can understand.
Mike
Baton Rouge

PS: Keith, if you're ever down that way, and its not far from you, check out Louie's Fish Camp, one of the old line bar/lounge/bait stands from the old days. Louis Fish Camp, Hwy 6 near I-45.

*

I'll look it up. I'm guessing you mean hwy 3, parallels I-45? Is it still there after hurricane Ike?

Hwy 6 meets the Gulf Freeway (I-45?) about 10 miles or so north of Galveston, not parallel to 45. Hwy 6 also runs up to College Station, home of the big one, my alma mater, Texas A&M. Things may have changed somewhat in 26 or so years since Hurricane Alicia blew away the camp, but I think Louie's is still there, at least according to my sister.

-- Edited by Gulf Comanche on Saturday 11th of April 2009 10:04:38 PM

Found it on maps.google.com. I'll check it out next time I'm down that way. Should be easy to get to, right under the Gulf Freeway from Hwy 3 which is how I'll head down there. Thanks for the tip!

Eric, Just as I said. I plan to use the large one for a storm anchor, 50 lb, and the small one for short stops. I haven't used them yet. I need to devise a better way to deploy them off the boat. At present I don't have an anchor roller on the bow to hold it. You would think that after 35 years a boat would have that but seems to have been overlooked over the years. It's on my to do list, which is rather long, and I'll get to it soon.

Getting the deal off the bottom can be the issue

Not an issue with a simple trip line , that also helps other boaters anchor in your area.

"I can do circles all day and night and not loose the hook up."

Interesting since a fluke sticks out of the bottom at all times that you haven't pulled it out yet.

Or perhaps the anchorage is big enough that you can drift and reset and never notice it?

FF

If you do circles all day and put a strain on the rode you will become unhooked but most good anchors will reset again in the new direction w strain** ..* or a load on the rode. I agree w the last sentence FF but " interesting since a fluke sticks out of the bottom at all times that you haven't pulled it out yet." What in God's green earth does that mean ??
Willy, That seems odd to me as when the upper fluke descends to the bottom it would seem that the upper fluke would prevent further descent because of it's attitude. Mud could make a difference. If one pulled it slowly even an extra heavy rock would descend into mud. I agree w FF that a tag line would be a good move but as per Willy I don't ever recall seeing one deployed here in the PNW. If one anchors here in Thorne Bay a tag line would be a VERY good move as there has been extensive logging for decades. I know people that know where there are several machines the size of a large dump truck on the bottom here. Other than that and at least a dozen float planes a day it's a perfect anchorage for about 100 boats.

Eric Henning

Eric----

I assume FF meant that with the Northill if one fluke buries itself more or less straight down until the anchor is resting on the cross-bar or whatever it's called, the other fluke will be sticking more or less straight up and thus out of the bottom.* So as the boat moves around it the rode could catch on the exposed fluke and lever the anchor out of the bottom.* Whether or not this actually happens I have no idea but I can see how it could in theory.

I know a number of people who use tag lines in the "lower PNW." We do, and I saw a quite a few people using them in some of the anchorages in Desolation Sound last fall, particularly those with a history of logging operations.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 16th of April 2009 07:33:05 PM

" So as the boat moves around it the rode could catch on the exposed fluke and lever the anchor out of the bottom. "

And with the extra large area of the exposed fluke , a slight chain wrap would be really secure.

I would treat a Northill just like a Danforth , use a stern anchor 100% of the time .

But that's how we anchor 99% of the O-nites anyway.

oldfishboat wrote:

I do not belive anchors make the turn. They pull out and dive again when setting after a 180 turn.


I dont buy into the "tag" line thoughts I just dont. Could be the on deck set up I have. Or that I do not want another line in the water attached to the bottom.

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I believe you are right with regards to what happens when the wind or current sends the boat in another direction.* If the wind or current are strong enough, the changed angle of pull will lever the anchor out, which is why many manufacturers make a big whoop about how fast their anchors will reset.*

This is the major claim of the Bruce--- that it sets again very fast if it's been pulled out.* And it does.* Unfortunately its holding power is extremely low compared to most other anchor configurations.* So it doesn't mean much that it resets fast if it's then pulled out again because of its low holding power.* And the Bruce has a nasty tendency to hop as the pulling force increases.* This is clearly demonstrated in the video on the Rocna website.* I was a big fan of the Bruce until its lack of holding power let us down a few times, one of them potentially boat-destroying.

As to your point about trip lines, if you have a heavy-duty windlass or winch that can haul up the rode, the anchor, and the submerged log or old logging cable the anchor has snagged on without ripping itself out of the deck or snapping off the bow pulpit then I agree, a trip line is not necessary.* But if you have a more "normal" recreational windlass, it will not have the power, and maybe not the mounting strength, to suck everything off the bottom with brute force.* So your choices are to*(1)*dive on the anchor in an attempt to free it, not something most boaters are prepared to do in our cold,*deep, and dark-water*anchorages* (2) try to maneuver the boat around to pull on the anchor the other way, which can be a pain if wind, currents, or lack of maneuvering room make this a tough task, plus there's a good chance it won't work anyway, (3) abandon the effort altogether and cut the rode, or (4) use a trip line to back the anchor out.

We practiced using our buoyed trip line when we first put it together and it's a pretty effortless process.* And given the cost of our anchor, I'd really prefer not to leave it down there to become a ling cod hangout.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 17th of April 2009 05:56:29 PM

Moderator Marin,
Thanks for helping me out w FFs strange sentence structure. As you all know my literary skills aren't at oxygen depleted altitudes either. I think your'e too hard on the Bruce Marin. The shank, flukes and arms all are parallel to the direction of strain (pull) so there is really hardly any resistance to the rode and hence they drag quite well or bad depending on how one looks at it. Occasionaly I think of useing a small Bruce w several large (3-4" dia) rings to create drag. I think the Danforth doesn't set well as the angle of the flukes is very shallow and on short scope it tends to pull out. I think the Delta could be good if it sets dependably* ..* it obviously has much more holding power than the Bruce.
Willy,
I have a small Northill (6 or 7lbs) but havn't tried it. It's for my 19' outboard and I have yet to anchor it. On my Willard I use a Danforth because it works fairly well, it's cheap and I have it. If I need more holding power I launch my XTZ Extreem. When that anchor sets it does so abruptly. While backing down, When I pull up on the rode between the sampson post and the bow roller it gets very tight very quickly and I feel no modulations or variations in the strain. I have almost total faith in it after it's set but sometimes I have trouble getting it to set.
The Northill is really a modified Kedge, the big difference being that the stock is at the fluke/arm end rather than at the end of the stock where the rode ataches. The stock being at the busniness end adds greatly to the holding power of the anchor as it is burried with at least one fluke. Anyway Willy I'm glad to hear the Northill works very well .. as I thought it would. Thanks for the imput.
Marin, If you see an excellent forged Northill about 15 to 18 lbs please let me know. I say that to you because you have that wonderful 2nd hand store in Bellingham.
Eric Henning

"FF how many times have you pulled up the danforth and found a job in clearing the thing."


Once or twice , 1 1/4 cable off the Hooligan Navy site in Cape May NJ, where they use the harbor bottom astheir garbage can.

"What do you belive is the reaction of that anchor while trying to hook up on the bottom after a wind or current change.

I do not believe anchors make the turn."

Guess you too must of read Ogg's book (the inventor of the lightweight Danforth style)where he never recommends a Danforth (except for a Landing Craft in war manuvers) .

He does recommend 2 -3 -4 -5 -7 , but NEVER one except, operationally..Didnt see a need for a chain lead either , till 1970's.

So as usual we follow DA BOOK, and always use paired* Danforths,
35H bow* stern* & 12H stern on the 33ft --
60H bow 90/90 with* a 20H on the NAVY 50 ,Lobster Cruiser.

OR a CQR or Bruce on the bow with the same stern gear.



-- Edited by FF on Saturday 18th of April 2009 05:33:43 AM

Hey FF,
Awful traditional stuff Fred. You need to get out more. It sounds like you use two anchors** ..* why is one not good enough? How do you set two anchors? What is "da book".
Marin,
It seems we may not need to trip over trip lines anymore. I see anchor retrieval "rings". They are a metal ring shaped like an egg w an eye at one end. It looks like you tie a line on it and slip it over the rode all the way down and over the shank to the far end of the anchor. Then I suppose one pulls the anchor out w the new jury-rigged trip line. I can see that slight tension (from perhaps a powered dinghy?) on the rode may help " get er done" while the boat pulls the anchor out w the trip line. It looks to be one of those things that look easy and obvious but seldom work in the real world. Anyone tried this?

Eric Henning

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 18th of April 2009 01:12:31 PM

For what it's worth, the few times I have had our anchor foul up it was due to very large logging cables that had been dumped in the bay/whatever.
The first time I used the brute power of our anchor drum winch to force the cable and anchor up until I could get a line on the cable and then drop the anchor a bit thereby freeing it from the cable. The last couple of times, thinking that I was going to be prepared, I attempted to use a shackle and line dropped down the anchor cable to pull from the other direction. I ended up breaking 3/8 nylon line and not freeing the anchor so went back to my good old drum winch and power from the boat to free it up.
Mind you our anchor is an 85 lb. "Naval" anchor and we were using 3/8 wire rope for the rode so it had lots of strength but it still was a bit of a pain.
Last time we fouled was in Shoal Bay and before I noticed what was happening I had pulled a float home out from shore darn near into the center of the bay. No harm done but I guess it was a bit of a shock for the resident to find himself "relocated"

John Tones MV Penta
Sidney, BC

nomadwilly wrote:Marin, If you see an excellent forged Northill about 15 to 18 lbs please let me know. I say that to you because you have that wonderful 2nd hand store in Bellingham.

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I'll keep an eye out.* You might also check the website or call Dunato's Second Wave in Seattle.* Same kind of store as Pacific Marine Exchange in Bellingham.** I don't get to Second Wave very often because it's quite aways from where I work, so I'm not very "up" on what they have in stock.

*

oldfishboat wrote:

Marin

So here we are full circle IMO. "Sampson Post & Capstan" . This stuff should not be the weak point in the ground tackle system.

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I agree with you, but the reality is that in production recreational boats like the ones most of us have, be they Grand Banks, Mainships, or Bayliners, their windlasses and pulpits are a far cry in terms of strength, mounting, and power that you get on a true working boat.

nomadwilly wrote:


Marin,
It seems we may not need to trip over trip lines anymore. I see anchor retrieval "rings".

Click to expand...

Eric---* We have one, we've tried it, and it didn't work as advertised.* With the type of anchor we have the ring will not end up where it needs to be on the shank to have an effective backwards pull.* Instead you end up pulling mostly against the full width of the fluke, not sliding it out backwards.* But a trip line fastened to a shackle in the hole at the back (wide) end of the fluke slides this particular anchor backwards very nicely.

I suspect the ring works much more successfully on an anchor like a Bruce, Danforth, and maybe a CQR where the ring will end up in a position for an effective backwards pull.

Also, with the trip line, we don't have to deal with trying to change the direction of pull in an attempt to back the anchor out.* We don't have to go out in the dinghy and try to pull the anchor backwards, for example.* Since the line is attached to the very back of the fluke, pulling straight up on it with the boat's windlass backs the fluke right out with very little effort.* At least that's what's happened so far.

The effectiveness of a ring or a trip line will vary with the configuration of the anchor.* In the case of our anchor, the ring doesn't work but the trip line does.

They call it a wildcat because it will bite you.

Ask me how I know.

One of the most useful functions of the sampson post hasn't been mentioned. It is used to fairlead
a line from another direction so it can be lead to the capstan/gypsyhead. This will effectively make your capstan a workhorse for all kinds of jobs other than just anchor pulling