Who Pays?

When buying a boat from a broker, who pays for the haul out for the survey?

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

When buying a boat from a broker, who pays for the haul out for the survey?

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The prospective buyer.

I have always been under the impression that the buyer pays for both the haul and survey, I know we did when we bought our boat and when we sold our sailboat the purchaser paid for both.

Every boat we've bought, we as buyer paid.

Pineapple Girl said:

Every boat we've bought, we as buyer paid.

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Ditto!

Same here.

[FONT=&quot]Different here, I took a shot in the dark and asked my seller to provide it as part of the deal with one of the reputable surveyors in the area. He did - no cost to me. Survey value came in at $179K. I then got another surveyor ( a fellow that I knew and who I was going to get if the seller said no ) to do an unofficial survey ( more so out of curiosity ) to compare the official one. The second guy never had any indication of what was identified on the first survey and he valued it at $149K. I paid $92K and seller delivered my boat to our Marina ( 19hr steam time ) again no cost to me - I was happy![/FONT]

We (buyer) paid with our first boat. The second time we will not. I refuse to pay for the seller to get a free bottom wash. However, I will probably pay for the survey (or offer a split).

And in my experience the survey belongs to the person who paid for it, usually the buyer. In other words if the buyer does not buy, the surveyor can't give a copy to the seller, or another prospect, without the buyers permission.
Steve W

Thanks all. I will be paying for the surveys, but will try to negotiate the haul out. I am told the haul out is normally paid by the buyer, while the sea trail is on the seller....

The boat I have bid on is on the hard, so I launch and recover to do the sea trial for the survey. The owner wanted me to pay to have it prepped for the survey, plus pay to have every "system" prepped if I wanted to see whether the water heater, pressure system, and toilet worked. On the WEST coast, it expected that the owner will prepare the vessel for survey unless advertised "as is". We compromised at my being willing to re-winterize the engine if I do not purchase, and re-imbursing for "top" quality batteries and fuel polishing if necessary. When the negotiating gets gritty, you know you are getting close to the right price. Everything is negotiable until you get close...

When negotiating for a boat in these times, everything is negotiable. However, the norm is for the buyer to pay all survey costs for the out of water/hull survey and mechanical survey. The seller covers the cost of the sea trial, which normally consists of the seller, broker, and purchaser's time, plus the fuel used.

On the boat I'm potentially closing on, the seller has paid for the mechanical and 50% of the out of water/hull survey, although I am 100% covering the haulout and power washing costs plus the genset mechanical survey.

In today's market everything is negotiable.

Conrad said:

In today's market everything is negotiable.

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1+

You don't know what a seller may be willing to do if you don't ask.

Ted

In an ideal world I would think the seller would pay for the survey to show to all potential buyers what they need to know to make a decision on their boat. The buyer would feel comfortable not having to worry about all the unknown things that could bring him all kinds of grief later.

BUT ...... Who's to say the survey's complete and honest? No telling so for that reason the buyer must find a surveyor that is looking out for HIM. Who represents who here is the reason the buyer must pay for and have the survey done.

But as Conrad suggests everything's negotiable. But w a really difficult boat to sell a seller may opt to pay for the surveyor of choice for the buyer. But that would mean the price is too high or the seller wouldn't make that offer. He would instead be just as willing to lower the price the same amount as the survey.

I purchased my boat with a handshake and no survey or written contract. Had the boat surveyed after the sale for insurance purposes that found a few small issues. When the seller found out about the issues he paid a mechanic friend to fix the issues at his expense without my asking or expecting it.

He said, "I sold you a boat with no issues and meant it". Naive to some folks in this day and age I'm sure, however men of integrity still exist in this world. I would do no less for whomever I sell a boat to.

I paid for my own survey as the surveyor works for me. Haul out should be negotiated IMO.

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Time was the buyer paid for hauling provided he bought, if not the seller paid. But now I think it is all on the buyer. The seller can say where he wants it hauled,fair enough as he owns it and does not want it dropped, but I guess it has to be somewhere reasonable, both location and cost.
There survey belongs to the buyer, who pays for it. It is up to the buyer whether he releases it to the seller, if he won`t but wants money off for defects, the seller might wonder.

CPseudonym said:

I purchased my boat with a handshake and no survey or written contract. Had the boat surveyed after the sale for insurance purposes that found a few small issues. When the seller found out about the issues he paid a mechanic friend to fix the issues at his expense without my asking or expecting it.

He said, "I sold you a boat with no issues and meant it". Naive to some folks in this day and age I'm sure, however men of integrity still exist in this world. I would do no less for whomever I sell a boat to.

I paid for my own survey as the surveyor works for me. Haul out should be negotiated IMO.

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Thanks everyone. When I get ready I may push the envelope a little.

I agree with you Craig. This is the way I am handling the purchase of my dock, but the handshake was with an elderly gentleman. I doubt there would be the same respect from the younger generation as a whole. There could still be some honest younger kids out there, I still hoping anyway. (but that is for a different thread)

Hi Tom,

Are you getting close to buying? I'd negotiate. See you soon.

sam

Tom.B said:

We (buyer) paid with our first boat. The second time we will not. I refuse to pay for the seller to get a free bottom wash. However, I will probably pay for the survey (or offer a split).

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The second time you would rather not. The haul out and survey is for your benefit and peace of mind, not the seller's. He or she could care less if you have a survey. And since you are paying for the survey (the boat must be hauled out as part of the survey), the surveyor is working for you, not the seller. It's his/her obligation to disclose any problems to you.

If you can convince the seller to pay for the haul out, fine. I suspect you will not be able to unless the seller is figuring extra expenses into his selling price.

I have never come across a boat surveyor I thought was worth employing, regardless of who was paying him or her.

While I am not now, or likely ever again to be in the boat buying market, I surveyed the little DeFever myself before making a offer to the seller.

I spoke with the underwriters at BoatUS, a managing general agency For CIGNA, and they issued port risk insurance.

3 years later I submitted 40,000 USD of invoices for materials I had bought, and they issued a full all risk yacht policy from Brownsville TX to Eastport ME, with normal berthing behind our house in Central Fl. No surveyor involved.

Flame away.

Mike

Were we buying a boat we would not accept a seller-provided survey. Were we selling a boat we would not pay for a buyer's survey.

All the risk of buying a boat is on the buyer. None is on the seller. As a seller, if a potential buyer is fool enough not to have the boat checked out by competent hull and engine surveyors that's not my problem nor my responsibility.

If a potential buyer cannot afford the cost of a haulout and survey(s) then he probably cannot afford the boat at which point we would have no more interest in dealing with him.

To Mike's point, if a buyer feels surveyors are not worth hiring and wants to do his own survey, that's fine. But it doesn't change anything. As the seller I would feel no obligation to pay anything toward that person's inspection. All costs associated with the potential buyer's "survey" or inspection-- haulout, pressure wash, you name it--- would be borne by the potential buyer.

We paid for the hull and engine surveys and the haulout for the GB we ultimately bought. We did this because we wanted no influence or involvement whatsoever on the part of the seller on who we chose for our surveyors, how we did the inspections, or where we had the boat hauled.

Marin said:

Were we buying a boat we would not accept a seller-provided survey. Were we selling a boat we would not pay for a buyer's survey.

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I have taken the above position when selling my last 7 boats. Although it has a "hard ass" ring to it, if you want to protect yourself, as a seller, it's the only prudent position to take.

Good points Marin and Walt. I have had some folks say I don't need surveys, but if I want to protect myself as a buyer, then I get the surveys done.

rwidman said:

The second time you would rather not. The haul out and survey is for your benefit and peace of mind, not the seller's. He or she could care less if you have a survey. And since you are paying for the survey (the boat must be hauled out as part of the survey), the surveyor is working for you, not the seller. It's his/her obligation to disclose any problems to you.

If you can convince the seller to pay for the haul out, fine. I suspect you will not be able to unless the seller is figuring extra expenses into his selling price.

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If they want to sluff-off a perspective buyer, that's fine. But let's be realistic, what seller has EVER price their boat, house, or car at what they want to get for it? There is room in the price for getting a haul-n-wash. The next time I buy a boat, the condition of the bottom and running gear is way down the list. I'll get a diver to look at it for way less money. What I am going to look for next time are things like fuel tank status and filter capacity and paint condition.

Tom.B said:

If they want to sluff-off a perspective buyer, that's fine. But let's be realistic, what seller has EVER price their boat, house, or car at what they want to get for it? There is room in the price for getting a haul-n-wash. The next time I buy a boat, the condition of the bottom and running gear is way down the list. I'll get a diver to look at it for way less money. What I am going to look for next time are things like fuel tank status and filter capacity and paint condition.

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Pay for an in water survey. Then if all is fine do the out of water survey to satisfy the insurance company and bank. Saves a lot of time and most surveyors won't charge a big difference in price.

My money is on you paying for all of it. Haul out, pressure wash and Survey.

So say in the Seattle area, what would be a standard price for hauling a boat, power wash, then slipping it back in?

Sam said:

Hi Tom,

Are you getting close to buying? I'd negotiate. See you soon.

sam

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Still looking and waiting on the farm to sell. Making sure I have all my ducks in a row. I tend to research stuff to death so I am informed.

As a member of the Florida Yacht Brokers Association I use the standard Purchase and Sale Agreement of the FYBA. The agreement reads "Seller shall pay all running expenses for, and assume the risks associated with, the trial run, and the buyer shall pay all costs of the survey, including associated costs, e.g.haul-out,dry dock and subcontractors' charges"
With such a long time for a boat to be on the market now, often the props are fouled so the seller pays to have the props cleaned so that we can have an accurate top RPM run, the buyer pays for pressure wash.
However everything can be negotiated.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

So say in the Seattle area, what would be a standard price for hauling a boat, power wash, then slipping it back in?

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We pay about $800 for a haulout, pressure wash, bottom prep, bottom paint, and re-launch. The boat is in the yard for a week and this cost does not include the extra cost of using a more expensive paint than the yard's "basic" paint. So our total cost is probably about a grand plus the cost of polishing both props.

The cost for a haulout, pressure wash, hang in the slings for an hour, and re-launch was less than $200 for our last insurance survey IIRC.

Tom.B said:

If they want to sluff-off a perspective buyer, that's fine. But let's be realistic, what seller has EVER price their boat, house, or car at what they want to get for it? There is room in the price for getting a haul-n-wash. The next time I buy a boat, the condition of the bottom and running gear is way down the list. I'll get a diver to look at it for way less money. What I am going to look for next time are things like fuel tank status and filter capacity and paint condition.

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I have had sellers price at exactly what they wanted for the boat. I even had a buyer pay a thousand more because they felt like the boat was worth more.

The buyer and only the buyer should pay all of the costs of the survey/haul. The seller never knows until the check clears if the buyers are kicking tires. The seller should not incur this risk. He the seller is already out the hassle of the survey and sea trial. Our due diligence should be at our direction and expense.

Often a quick haul is a very minor cost and well worth the effort. If a bad cutlass bearing shows up most sellers agree right away to take care of it as it is often unknown to them until she is hauled.