water makers

Hi all,

I'm in the process of buying a Kadey Krogen 42' (survey is tomorrow)

One of the things it will need in the near future (within the next 5 months) is a water maker, probalby with the capacity of about 8 gal/hour.

I have seen a number of options, one being the Village Marine/Racor SQ-200 for about $8k + $2k install.

The other option seems to be (this is my question) buying the parts off the shelf and putting it together myself? How feasible is this? and is it worth my time?

My mechanical skills are good, but I have noticed that whenever I install something, the second time is always faster and a better installation.

Boat is in Florida now and will move it to NYC this spring.

THanks in advance for your comments and suggestions.

Richard
New York, NY

Richard,

This is a guide to building your own watermaker:


http://www.westward-ii.com/PDF's/How%20to%20build%20your%20own%20watermaker.pdf

I bought my watermaker, which is made up of components from Quality Water Works: http://qwwinc.com/index.html

George, the owner, is very good with after sale support. On my system, the high pressure pump runs off the engine so while I am underway to the next spot, I can make about 25 gallons of water every hour.

Ron

You can build your own with off the shelf parts or buy a kit similar to the company Ron referenced. Here's another link for a system for around $4,000. They also parts.

20 GPH Water Maker

I would suggest 20 vs 8 GPH. The 20 GPH is pretty much a standard reference output for a 1-40" membrane AC system.

Is the water maker for the trip north or for cruising? Your tankage will be around 300 gallons your KK, which is a lot of water. We use about 20 gallons per day for 2 adults and the dog.

Good luck on the survey.

I too have a watermaker from Quality Water Works. As Ron says, it is basically a set of off-the-shelf components but with the advantage that you know they are all going to fit together. If you are in south Florida, then Watermakers inc or Village Marine come well recommended. By all means pay to have someone install it, but if you do it yourself then you know the system inside and out when/if it malfunctions.

Thanks Larry and Ron,

The 20 gph kit seems like the way I will go, but have some time to think about it.

Right now, the only things I am planning on doing before I come north are
1. changing the electric stove to propane (and adding a bbq of course), and
2. installing a Racor fuel polishing system

I'll keep you posted.

Richard

By all means pay to have someone install it, but if you do it yourself then you know the system inside and out when/if it malfunctions.

Mike,

Exactly my thoughts. I feel that in FL I could have it installed relatively cheaply, but if I do it myself, I like the idea of me totally understanding it and being able to fix it, once off the grid, even if it takes me 10x longer.


RIchard

I'm going through the same thing right now and here's what I've found and am planning on doing....

First keep in mind that a water maker needs to be either used regularly, flushed with fresh water regularly, or pickled. If you don't, it will get skanked out and shorten the life considerably. It will also make smelly water because the gas from decaying dead plakton passed through the membrane to the fresh water side.

Based on this, you need to think through how you expect to used the boat. If you are a full time live aboard, then regular use is not a problem. But if you leave the boat for weeks at a time (or just don't run the watermaker for weeks at a time), then you will either need to pickle it or flush it with fresh water once a week. But if you have left the boat for a few weeks, how are you going to flush it? There in lies the problem.

The best solution short of pickling, is an automatic self-flushing water maker. These stay awake in a low power mode and count down the days, then perform an automatic flush and start counting down again. I think this is the best solution for non-live aboards. Systems that have automatic flush, all also have automatic operation. You push a button and it runs. A sensor monitors salinity level in the product water and dumps it overboard until the level is acceptable, then diverts it to the tank. When you are done, it stops and does a fresh water flush, then goes into the auto flush cycle. Personally, this is how I want my water maker to work. And the auto flush is essential for the way we use our boat.

This leaves you with 3 choices as I see it:

1) Build your own. If you are hands on, and you don't mind a system that is manually operated and flushed, this is the least expensive way to get water. Lots of people have done it and have no problem operating them.

2) Buy a pre-built system, but one with little or no automation. This is much easier than building your own, but you still need to be ready and able to operate and flush it manually.

3) Buy and automated system.

If you buy a non-automated system, I don't think it matters much whether it's AC or DC powered. Some people have also built engine-driven systems. The choice really has to do with your boat, what systems are available, when you want to run the system, etc. Do keep in mind, however, that the preferred time/place to make water is while underway out in open water. In harbors and at docks the water tends to be cruddy. So think about what your preferred power source is while underway.

If you go for an automated system, look VERY carefully at the power source and how it interacts with the automated flush function. The boat I'm building normally comes with a Village Marine AC-powered system. It has an auto flush function, so I figured all would be fine as long as I'm plugged into dock power when I leave the boat. Not so. It turns out that when power is lost, the auto flush stops and needs to be manually restarted. 240VAC comes and goes on the boat based on generator run time and shore power hookup. And shore power is not reliable. Every blink resets the flush cycle, so in practice it's really a manual system, not automated unless you are on a big boat with 24x7 AC. That's not me.

So I'm going back to a Spectra system which is what I have on my current boat. It's completely automated (even more so than the Village Marine system), and is DC powered so providing it with uninterrupted power comes naturally. And I think DC is a much better way to power a water maker while underway rather than having to run a generator. Also keep in mind that you need to keep the water turned on with an auto flush system.

Lots of people associate DC water makers with low output, and AC with high output. This really isn't the case except at the extremes. The DC system I'm putting in is 1000 GPD which is a lot of water.

By the way, I currently have a 12 GPH system and I wouldn't want one any smaller unless your boat use has you underway for a long time each day. 3-4 hrs replaces our day usage after flushing etc., but to keep up we need to run every day. If we let the tanks get down, it can be a challenge to get them filled back up again. And there are lots of places where you can't/shouldn't run it, so skipping days it quite common.

"Boat is in Florida now and will move it to NYC this spring."

NYC unquestionably has the best water system in the world.

Florida water sucks , but many towns create RO water , fill there.

A water maker requires a procedure (that may be long and detailed) to NOT use it for a while.

Do your cruising plans call for so many months in remote areas that a RO machine would be a plus rather than just more maint?

Wxx3 said:

One of the things it will need in the near future (within the next 5 months) is a water maker, probalby with the capacity of about 8 gal/hour.

Click to expand...

Based on your output needs the Katadyn Powersurvivor 160 would work fine.

Its DC based, puts out around 7 GPH, and is very simple.

Turn it on, wait 10 minutes or so for the output to clean up, then switch it over to the tank.

I installed a flow meter as an extra with mine in order to check its output.

Few people have anything bad to say about the brand, and parts are available world wide when needed.

Built one about ten years ago, 20 gph, all off the shelf components. Cost was right at $3000 including hoses, fittings, adjustable back pressure regulator, pulsation damper and UV sterilizer.

Adjustable back pressure allows you to make water in anything from salt water to brakish water to fresh water. UV sterilizer is not really necessary but made the admiral happy.

Bob

The discussion of AC vs DC water makers comes up a lot particularly with the good efficiency of the Clark Pump that Spectra uses. For us though, we went with an AC system since we spend most of our time at anchor. Our DC refrigeration system is our biggest amp user and we didn't want to add another 20-40 DC amps out per day. Since we run the genertor to charge batteries and heat hot water, we make water at the same time. If we loose the generator we can always make water or rinse the filters via the inverter.

Many owners install watermakers for use in the Bahamas or in other locations where you must buy fresh water, or if you intend for long offshore passages, or to be independent of a dock. However at the cost to buy and then maintain a water maker you can buy a lot of water or pay for many nights dockage at a marina. I see many boats many years old with very low hours on the water maker hour meter.
Decide on your real need in consideration of the cost.

yachtbrokerguy said:

Many owners install watermakers for use in the Bahamas or in other locations where you must buy fresh water, or if you intend for long offshore passages, or to be independent of a dock. However at the cost to buy and then maintain a water maker you can buy a lot of water or pay for many nights dockage at a marina. I see many boats many years old with very low hours on the water maker hour meter.
Decide on your real need in consideration of the cost.

Click to expand...

Very good point. If you are cruising and every few days or so you land at a marina, then you don't need a watermaker.

We built the water maker not to avoid the cost of buying water but to eliminate the hassle of having to go to a fuel dock or into a marina to get water. While we were cruising we rarely went into a marina and it being a sailboat we rarely stopped at a fuel dock. Fuel docks in FL make it very obvious that they don't want sailboats to come in because they know that a sailboat will pick up maybe twenty gallons of diesel and 100 gallons of water.

Now that we have a power boat I'm sure we will visit enough fuel docks to keep up with our water needs.

Bob

water everywhere and none to drink....

After living with a water maker and having all the water we need I cannot imagine life without one. Being able to rinse the boat whenever you wish with water that doesn't spot the hull is also a added plus. Even in British Columbia in the summer the marinas either frown of do not allow boat washing as they don't have enough water for the locals that live on the islands.
On Volunteer I had the ability to fill a bow tank that holds about 300G. which we used to wash decks and as outside shower water.. all guilt free. If you plan on cruising in third world countries you never want to take on their water as fear of contaminating the boats water supply is very real.
Are they a maintenance hassle? .. you bet. But it's not as bad as having to hassle guests about water use and trying to get water in many places. I am currently working over a 40gph unit on the bench in my shop that I purchased for $ 300.00 and I have not even found the boat yet that it's going into!
HOLLYWOOD

Wxx3 said:

Hi all,

I'm in the process of buying a Kadey Krogen 42' (survey is tomorrow)

One of the things it will need in the near future (within the next 5 months) is a water maker, probalby with the capacity of about 8 gal/hour.

I have seen a number of options, one being the Village Marine/Racor SQ-200 for about $8k + $2k install.

The other option seems to be (this is my question) buying the parts off the shelf and putting it together myself? How feasible is this? and is it worth my time?

My mechanical skills are good, but I have noticed that whenever I install something, the second time is always faster and a better installation.

Boat is in Florida now and will move it to NYC this spring.

THanks in advance for your comments and suggestions.

Richard
New York, NY

Click to expand...

The defevercruisers have detailed drawings for one in the files section of their website

"Now that we have a power boat I'm sure we will visit enough fuel docks to keep up with our water needs."

Power or Sail most small boats need a dock frequently to get rid of garbage and trash.

Few have any realistic system like a garbage compactor or dedicated space to store trash , and in inland waters dumping it overboard is a No No.

Our "best" solution is the lifted dink in davits.
Holds quite a few large bags but bags can get in the way if you need to row ashore to empty.

Better to buy 10G of diesel, dump the trash , and take on 200G of water at the fuel dock.

Go in between 11AM and usually 2 PM and you can probably tie up long enough to do the wash.

hollywood8118 said:

After living with a water maker and having all the water we need I cannot imagine life without one. Being able to rinse the boat whenever you wish with water that doesn't spot the hull is also a added plus.

Click to expand...

I agree, once you have a watermaker its not something you want to live without.

On a boat water conservation becomes a part of life. With a watermaker you do not think about it.

Wash the boat, take a long shower, etc... Water becomes something you do not have to monitor.

THanks All,

Survey went very well, just a few really minor issues.

To clarify, we will be living on boat full time within 6 months and want to be able to minimize marina time while crusing. This will prpbably be a summer or fall project.

I've already looked at a few kits, the Spectra, Sea Maker and Quality Water. I will probably go with one of those. My only debate at this point is 12V DC or 120V AC. will see what my pattern is this summer, but I'm not one to hang around one place very long, so leaning towards DC.

Richard

Question: Would it be possible to tee off one of the AC thru hulls as an inlet for water, versus cutting in a new thru hull. You wouldn't be able to run the AC unit whie making water, but you would be able to get it installed without a haul out.
Thoughts?

The setup for an a/c system is normally thru-hull ->strainer->centrifugal pump->a/c unit->overboard. If you tee into that system, say immediately after the strainer, there is a possibility that the lift pump for the watermaker may suck air backwards through the a/c pipework and push it into the hi-pressure pump. If that turned out to be the case, an either/or selector valve would solve the problem.

windmill29130 said:

Question: Would it be possible to tee off one of the AC thru hulls as an inlet for water, versus cutting in a new thru hull. You wouldn't be able to run the AC unit whie making water, but you would be able to get it installed without a haul out.
Thoughts?

Click to expand...

You can as long as the thru hull is large enough. I've done this successfully on 2 different boats. The manufacturer would prefer a dedicated thru hull though. If you do tee off from the AC thru hull, don't use any chlorine based cleaners for your AC system. The 2 biggest RO membrane killers are oil and chlorine.

windmill29130 said:

Question: Would it be possible to tee off one of the AC thru hulls as an inlet for water, versus cutting in a new thru hull. You wouldn't be able to run the AC unit whie making water, but you would be able to get it installed without a haul out.
Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I suppose it could be done, but both Spectra and Village Marine are very explicit that the WM must be plumbed with a dedicated intake. Both void the warranty if you install it otherwise. And they like to see a forward facing scoop too. Both vendors installation manuals are available for download from their web sites. Other brands probably are too.

good info thanks. never thought about chlorine. I'm going to build myself a water maker i have left over ro membranes