bfloyd4445
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I cant decide please help
ok, here we go, whats better, a perkins or a lehman and why?
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rochepoint
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This should be good discussion!
A Perkins, why because we have one. It has never let us down
A Perkins, why because we have one. It has never let us down
bfloyd4445
Guru
This should be good discussion!
A Perkins, why because we have one. It has never let us down
well thats a good thing. The reason for my question is i have my heart set on buying a costa mesa or Down East built defever 40 and i have my choice between a bristol 79 twin perkins and a solid single ford lehman. Both Down east vessels
Thanks
This is not a answer to your question. There is no definitive answer to your question.
I sold the Perkins 6.354 185 hp out of my DeFever when I bought it, 8 years ago.
A dredging company bought it for 500 USD. They removed the marine parts, and the turbo, and gave it a radiator. Now they use it to drive a dredging pump on a barge. Saw it last summer, still working. Talked to the barge foreman - it’s going strong he said,
3200 hours, one rebuild when I sold it.
I’m Cummins now.
Mike
I sold the Perkins 6.354 185 hp out of my DeFever when I bought it, 8 years ago.
A dredging company bought it for 500 USD. They removed the marine parts, and the turbo, and gave it a radiator. Now they use it to drive a dredging pump on a barge. Saw it last summer, still working. Talked to the barge foreman - it’s going strong he said,
3200 hours, one rebuild when I sold it.
I’m Cummins now.
Mike
BruceK
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I`ve had both, a single Perkins in the previous boat, twin Lehmans in this one.
Leaving aside the obvious advantage of twins (uh-oh) my spin is the 2 engines are similar in concept, large relatively unstressed enduring engines which have powered a variety of objects. The 185hp output of the turbo & aftercooled Perkins was getting up, but it ran well despite many unrecorded hours from POs, the first being the CYCA, who run the Sydney-Hobart bluewater race and do not spare the horses.
I think the reason you can`t make up your mind is because it is a close thing, both are good and the concepts are similar. You can readily get parts and advice for the Lehman, and parts for the Perkins were available.
I don`t think it matters which you choose, both are good.
Leaving aside the obvious advantage of twins (uh-oh) my spin is the 2 engines are similar in concept, large relatively unstressed enduring engines which have powered a variety of objects. The 185hp output of the turbo & aftercooled Perkins was getting up, but it ran well despite many unrecorded hours from POs, the first being the CYCA, who run the Sydney-Hobart bluewater race and do not spare the horses.
I think the reason you can`t make up your mind is because it is a close thing, both are good and the concepts are similar. You can readily get parts and advice for the Lehman, and parts for the Perkins were available.
I don`t think it matters which you choose, both are good.
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Agree with Bruce. My trusty old Lehman is still going strong after God knows how many hours, (the hour meter bit broke back on 3,200 hrs 11 yrs ago.)
As Bruce said, both unstressed reliable if somewhat underwhelming performing engines. So basically go for the boat you prefer of the two. If one is a single, and the other a twin, and otherwise comparable, then even tho I've only got a single, I could be persuaded to recommend going for the twin.
This could be fun.....
As Bruce said, both unstressed reliable if somewhat underwhelming performing engines. So basically go for the boat you prefer of the two. If one is a single, and the other a twin, and otherwise comparable, then even tho I've only got a single, I could be persuaded to recommend going for the twin.
This could be fun.....
I cant decide please help
As Peter said, go for the boat, not the engine. Or if you prefer, go for the boat with best treated, bet maintained engine(s) of either type.
That said, if we had a choice between a boat we really liked with Lehmans and a boat we really liked with something newer like Luggers, Deeres, Cummins, or Cats we would not get the boat with Lehmans. (We have no experience with Perkins.)
I'm not a fan of Lehmans although they can be very reliable, long-lived engines. I just don't care for old, outdated, inefficient, heavy, noisy engines.
Nomad Willy
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I think not Gonzo.
Nobody has even identified a difference between the two engines yet.
Nobody has even identified a difference between the two engines yet.
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Daddyo
Guru
I'll go down in the engine room and do just that. We have both. Lehmans drive the boat and a Perkins drives the Westerbeke. Another Perkins drove the Kohler but we sold that genny as two seemed a bit of overkill. The Perkins is a bit more cramped in layout but much of that is not apples vs apples as two are 120hp and the other 27hp I think.
Baggiolini
Senior Member
Cummins
What Fryedaze said.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Have and have always had Lehman. Better red than dead. SOME Perkins parts can be expensive or difficult to obtain (think exhaust manifolds). Lehman had 6 letters. 3 Lehmans=666...'nuff said. Perkins has 7 letters. Three 7's=a win in Vegas...Hmmm...Should the new toaster for the galley be painted or chromed?????
Have and have always had Lehman. Better red than dead. SOME Perkins parts can be expensive or difficult to obtain (think exhaust manifolds). Lehman had 6 letters. 3 Lehmans=666...'nuff said. Perkins has 7 letters. Three 7's=a win in Vegas...Hmmm...Should the new toaster for the galley be painted or chromed?????
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Compare and contrast the state of the other systems, particularly electrical, on the two boats. What R&M $$ will need to be spent in the next few years? If you still cant split them, it will come down to you preference for single or twin.
But of course if you wanted a really good old engine you would install a Gardner, or two if you are a lottery winner.
But of course if you wanted a really good old engine you would install a Gardner, or two if you are a lottery winner.
FF
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For putting the ICW or other lakes bays and rivers , what difference does it make?
For offshore , passage making , out of the range of Sea Tow and cell phones , a genuine industrial style engine would be a superior choice.
I prefer DD as they if required will operate at FULL RATED LOAD for as long as required.
The key it to look on the mfg or converters web site and see if 4 duty ratings are given.
This seperates the yard equipment or auto takeouts from the genuine HD engines.
Sadly the supply of sources for about 100HP Rated to operate at 70-80 HP is limited.
I would look to the generator mfg to see what they use in the 100 hp area.
For my own boat offshore a DD Ser 60 would be 1st choice (with a locker of control Dedec boxes) or 6-71 N or an International DT 360 or 466 for a really robust (and CHEAP) engine to marinize.
On a used boat you simply get what ever engine was cheapest to the boat assembler , that's why you see boats with Volvos.
For offshore , passage making , out of the range of Sea Tow and cell phones , a genuine industrial style engine would be a superior choice.
I prefer DD as they if required will operate at FULL RATED LOAD for as long as required.
The key it to look on the mfg or converters web site and see if 4 duty ratings are given.
This seperates the yard equipment or auto takeouts from the genuine HD engines.
Sadly the supply of sources for about 100HP Rated to operate at 70-80 HP is limited.
I would look to the generator mfg to see what they use in the 100 hp area.
For my own boat offshore a DD Ser 60 would be 1st choice (with a locker of control Dedec boxes) or 6-71 N or an International DT 360 or 466 for a really robust (and CHEAP) engine to marinize.
On a used boat you simply get what ever engine was cheapest to the boat assembler , that's why you see boats with Volvos.
JAT
Guru
Here are a couple of thoughts where Perkins are concerned:
1. If the Perkins are 6.354's with turbos....the exhaust manifolds are readily available. If they are naturals...they are available...built on demand of stainless steel...and oddly enough cost less than Perkins did before discontinued.
I am a Perkins owner...I love my engines. My previous boat was Perkins powered.... They are great engines. Mine are naturals...and they run well and I have maintained them well. They are fuel efficient.
2. Here is the rub.... If the boat has a "counter rotating" Perkins 6.354, then you have to hope that the fresh water pump on that engine is in good shape.... If the pump fails...it can only be rebuilt...it appears that none can be purchase new through Perkins....and are not being made after market. So....if the pump fails and is not rebuildable...an alternate method of pumping the water will be have to created.
But, even still...I would not use that fact as a determinant.... Because if the water pump is fine...then it can continue working for years...and as mentioned...it can be rebuilt...
The toaster? Chrome naturally!
Daddyo
Guru
Lol I was about to mention the contra-rotating pump or there lack of lol
I've just rebuilt my 1991 Perkins 6.354.4
Cost for the full rebuild kit including new water pump, two new fuel filter assembly pumps was about $600.00. The new injectors, new CAV injector pump and rebuilt oil coolers cost $1800.00. Just gotta buy new hoses and paint then I can start her up. That'll probs be around $200.00 so $2,600.00 all up for a relatively brand new motor. Not cheap but not the dearest I've seen either. From what I've found parts are easy to get and reliability should see the motor out last me with proper maintenance and care.
Hope that's some help for ya mate.
My $0.02
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Nomad Willy
Guru
Still I don't hear of any real differences like pre-chambers or direct injection, glow plugs, combustion chamber/piston crown shape, ring design, flywheel dia/weight, valve gear differences, bore/stroke differences, number of main bearings ect ect ect. There must be some differences that are worth mentioning.
jleonard
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I have had both a Perkins T6.354(circa 1978) and a Lehman 120(circa 1983).
I got rid of the Perkins in my previous boat because I had a very hard time finding and getting parts. Perkins set up strict districts and mine didn't know squat about Perkins and hence the trouble. TAD wouldn't sell to me (they gave me all the part numbers I asked for) because I was out of their district. Plus the marine add on parts were very very expensive. And I had the "contra-rotating" version and some parts were extrememly rare.
The Lehman is very easy to get parts for thru ADC. And they are cheap.
I don't like having the change injector pump oil as often as recommended though, and that is my dislike for Lehmans.
My opinion is that the base engines are comparable. They are both "old heavy iron" engines and will last lots of hours.
I got rid of the Perkins in my previous boat because I had a very hard time finding and getting parts. Perkins set up strict districts and mine didn't know squat about Perkins and hence the trouble. TAD wouldn't sell to me (they gave me all the part numbers I asked for) because I was out of their district. Plus the marine add on parts were very very expensive. And I had the "contra-rotating" version and some parts were extrememly rare.
The Lehman is very easy to get parts for thru ADC. And they are cheap.
I don't like having the change injector pump oil as often as recommended though, and that is my dislike for Lehmans.
My opinion is that the base engines are comparable. They are both "old heavy iron" engines and will last lots of hours.
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Dougcole
Guru
Overall I loved my old perkins 4-236's. Very reliable and easy to fix.
The only negatives I saw after 8 years of ownership were.
1. I had to order a new thermostat housing from england at something like $800. The header tank on that side was also bad, but we managed to repair it when we found out a replacement would have been over $1,000.
2. They slobber a lot of fuel and oil. I was constantly fixing (and sometimes failing to fix) leaks. From what I have heard it is the nature of the breed. Cork gaskets.
Doug
The only negatives I saw after 8 years of ownership were.
1. I had to order a new thermostat housing from england at something like $800. The header tank on that side was also bad, but we managed to repair it when we found out a replacement would have been over $1,000.
2. They slobber a lot of fuel and oil. I was constantly fixing (and sometimes failing to fix) leaks. From what I have heard it is the nature of the breed. Cork gaskets.
Doug
bfloyd4445
Guru
Thanks
I never expected so many thoughtful answers to my, what i thought was a simple question and wish to thank everyone for taking the time to answer. I suppose what i have gotten out of your comments is that they are both pretty much equal and fine engine systems for old iron with the Perkins maybe a bit more difficult to procure parts for than the Lehman.
Again, I thank you all for your thoughtful postings. Marin's answer reflects my feelings of old iron but the truth is i have new and old non marine diesel engine systems and while the new ones are quieter, make more horsepower, they are most definitely more difficult to maintain than the old. Another down side to new iron is the computer control systems and associated parts are not so easy jury rigged in an emergency like the old iron. Old iron is simple straight forward and with a stock of spare parts are not likely ever to fail. Try finding a new turbo or spare FICM< fuel injector control module> down in the spare parts locker when needed. Old iron, got nuttin but a very reliable high pressure fuel pump with manual injectors not likely to fail. As far as the engine its self i have yet to hear of one failing. I have heard of the newer turbo marine engines disassembling themselves in a heart beat but never a Perkins or Lehman. All they do is loose water pumps, starters, alternators, heat exchangers and hoses. Anyway, that said i have really come to appreciate the noisy simplicity of the old iron in contrast to the quiet complexity of modern
Diesel power systems. Thanks to you all I won't make the decision based upon perkins or Lehman unless its a twin vrs. single.
and my friends, I wish to thank you all again for trying to help me make a selection.
I never expected so many thoughtful answers to my, what i thought was a simple question and wish to thank everyone for taking the time to answer. I suppose what i have gotten out of your comments is that they are both pretty much equal and fine engine systems for old iron with the Perkins maybe a bit more difficult to procure parts for than the Lehman.
Again, I thank you all for your thoughtful postings. Marin's answer reflects my feelings of old iron but the truth is i have new and old non marine diesel engine systems and while the new ones are quieter, make more horsepower, they are most definitely more difficult to maintain than the old. Another down side to new iron is the computer control systems and associated parts are not so easy jury rigged in an emergency like the old iron. Old iron is simple straight forward and with a stock of spare parts are not likely ever to fail. Try finding a new turbo or spare FICM< fuel injector control module> down in the spare parts locker when needed. Old iron, got nuttin but a very reliable high pressure fuel pump with manual injectors not likely to fail. As far as the engine its self i have yet to hear of one failing. I have heard of the newer turbo marine engines disassembling themselves in a heart beat but never a Perkins or Lehman. All they do is loose water pumps, starters, alternators, heat exchangers and hoses. Anyway, that said i have really come to appreciate the noisy simplicity of the old iron in contrast to the quiet complexity of modern
Diesel power systems. Thanks to you all I won't make the decision based upon perkins or Lehman unless its a twin vrs. single.
and my friends, I wish to thank you all again for trying to help me make a selection.
SomeSailor
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A Lehman because we have two of them and everyone knows two are exponentially more prone to failure, so mine must be exemplary motors.
bfloyd4445
Guru
come on guys, the olny ones i have talked to that had failures were twins. Maybe because the singles that failed visited Davy Jones?
Codger2
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Did Gonzo post something?
As I've previously stated, I've had DDs, Perkins, Cummins & Cats. The only two brands that I've had zero trouble with are Cummins (4) and Perkins (2).
The Perkins were a little quieter than the Cummins but both brands were excellent!
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bfloyd4445
Guru
I saw your pix Hendo, thanks, and the perkins looked pretty easy as far as assembly goes. But I'll bet your perkins really didnt need a rebuild but i like the idea of new injectors and pump. Oil coolers heat exchengers Bomac recomends replaceing every two years. Bomac is a Ford Lehman engine rebuilder. I asked about the oil cooler and heat exchanger replacement and here at the forum folks saidthey replace them only when needed. Humm, does that mean most wait until they fail to replace? I'm not into breakdowns so would likely take them out and inspect them at least every other year to be safe.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Floyd,
How do you "inspect" a heat exchanger or oil cooler? I don't see how one could "see" when one was about to fail?
I think I'll replace my oil cooler this spring. Been 7 years.
How do you "inspect" a heat exchanger or oil cooler? I don't see how one could "see" when one was about to fail?
I think I'll replace my oil cooler this spring. Been 7 years.
Capn Craig
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So we conclude that both are similar. The benefit of old low tech can not be overstated if you cruise in out of the way places. I personally get much confidence knowing that when the **** hits the fan I can probably fix it. That is lessened with twins. As to your opinion that Lehman may have a parts advantage might be factored by price if that matters to you. There are significantly more perkins engines in ag equipment that Ford. So cheaper ag parts for a Perkins are probably more available. If your goal is parts availability consider a cat or deere, particularly cat at least in the states.
