POWER Question!!!

RickB said:

Horse pucky.

Do you mind telling us why the boat has to be "rewired?"

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Its good to have you back Rick.

Leaving aside the matter of obtaining 240 volt appliances in North America, if she has her heart set on this boat, is there any reason why she couldn't install a 2nd isolation transformer and continue to use the (presumably) European wiring onboard?

RickB said:

Everything you posted except for the last sentence is misleading.

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I'll take some time to flesh out my answer, not for the OP, but because somebody out there might be interested.

RickB said:

Most isolation transformers can handle and are rated at 50/60Hz.

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Well, drawing on the experience of my first job, in the QA department of a transformer manufacturer, I'd have to say that this is not true. Some, yes. All, no. In particular, it's highly unlikely that an isolation transformer manufacured and installed on a boat in Europe (two wire, 220V, 50Hz, 16 or 32 amp) will be designed for North American shore power (three wire, 110/220V, 60 Hz, 30 or 50 amp).

RickB said:

Converting a marine diesel generator to 60Hz from 50Hz or vice versa is normally trivial. It will actually produce more power at 60 Hz because the engine is turning faster.

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Well, drawing on my 35 years of experience maintaining diesel generators, I'd say this is not true. Yes, it's possible to just adjust the governor. And yes, it's possible that the generator end may be designed for 60 Hz as well as 50 Hz. And yes, it's possible that it's a 12-lead generator and you can reconfigure it from European (two wire, 220V) to North American (three wire, 110/220V) standards. And even if you can, you're looking at replacing all the breakers, all the panels, and quite possibly the voltage regulator as well.

RickB said:

What shoreside wiring code did you get the #14 wire thing from? It doesn't apply to marine installations.

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This is not just wrong, it's really wrong. Overcurrent protection is mandated by all wiring codes, including AYBC. It most certainly does apply to marine installations. The ampacity tables are commonly available. If you want 15 amp branch circuits, you need a minimum of #14 AWG wire (outside of engineroom spaces, where the ampacity of wire is reduced).

Since European (220V) wiring is typically smaller than #14 for branch circuits, not to mention small than #10 for shore power, I reiterate my earlier answer: realistically speaking, you are looking at a major rewire.

RickB said:

Horse pucky. Do you mind telling us why the boat has to be "rewired?"

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Again, answering because somebody might be interested:

European (two wire, 220V, 50 Hz) systems use (not surprisingly) two wires. There is no "neutral" like we are used to in North America. Furthermore, since 220V requires half the amperage than 110V for the equivalent wattage, branch circuits can be of a lower amapacity (typically 10A).

In practical terms what this all means is the following, starting from the source:

1) The shore power cable will be 16 or 32 amps. This will have to be completely replaced.

2) The main distribution panel, selector switch, meters, breakers, etc. will all be 220V two wire. All of these components will have to be replaced with 110/220 two wire versions.

3) All of the branch circuits are likely two-wire 220V 10 amp circuits. All will need to be replaced with 15 amp wiring (#14).

3) All of the receptacles, light switches, bulb sockets, etc. will be rated and sized for 220V loads, and all will need to be replaced.

4) All 220V transformers and equipment will need to be replaced.

5) All non-universal 220V motors will need to be replaced.

In my books, that adds up to "rewiring".

Scott
Island Eagle

bobofthenorth said:

Leaving aside the matter of obtaining 240 volt appliances in North America, if she has her heart set on this boat, is there any reason why she couldn't install a 2nd isolation transformer and continue to use the (presumably) European wiring onboard?

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You could indeed get a 110:220 step-up transformer, although that would still leave the issue of 50Hz vs 60Hz to deal with. However, you would then be stuck sourcing 220V appliances forever. Probably not practical. But definitely the lowest short-term cost.

Scott
Island Eagle

markpierce said:

Reiziger, red sails are neat.

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+1 But Wooden Shoes are also neat......

bobofthenorth said:

Its good to have you back Rick.

Leaving aside the matter of obtaining 240 volt appliances in North America, if she has her heart set on this boat, is there any reason why she couldn't install a 2nd isolation transformer and continue to use the (presumably) European wiring onboard?

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This is the most cost effective solution. It isn't hard to select a transformer that can handle both 50 Hz and 60 Hz, they are readily available. And typically they can act as stepup/step down 120/240 V also. Both Victron and Charles have such models.

Here's a real-world example with modern equipment. My boat is being setup - by professional marine electricians - with two isolation transformers. I dont have the schematic with me to share at present, but it is designed to be simple and foolproof so that well-meaning crew cannot accidentally cause a problem.

When in North America and connected to shorepower the 120V/60Hz supply feeds the 120V switchpanel and supplies existing 120V appliances with 60 Hz power. Importantly this includes a battery charger. I have a large housebank and 220V/50Hz inverter. So while at dock (in USA) my 240V appliances draw from the batteries/inverter, hence the importance of the 120V battery charger noted above. This charger is a nice spec. Victron Phoenix 12/50, which can handle any available shorepower (Input 90-265VAC, 45-65 Hz)

When in the rest of the world my shorepower, a different inlet from the USA one, is 220V/50Hz. Any legacy 120V appliances I have and want to use, I can. BUT, they will be getting 120V and 50Hz. The appliances that cant handle that frequency are being ditched. eg 120V microwave.

Away from the dock the boat is 240V, with 120V available on board but at 50Hz. This compromise solution allows me to avoid replacing all the 120V appliances at once. Some 120V outlets are being changed to 220 V outlets: wire conductor capacity is OK for this, but conductor colors are getting appropriate color heatshrink at the ends to differentiate the useage, and of course these wires are connected into the new 220V swichpanel anyway. In other places I am adding new 220 V outlets with new wire.

The steps are straightforward: appliance inventory, audit of wiring/switchpanels, plan a safe solution. Yes, expert marine electrical contractors are the best way to go for planning and installation. With modern components a safe and cost effective combination of both 220V and 120V systems are achievable, and appliance replacement can be minimized and done when convenient. Lots of stuff - newer flatpanel TV's, phone chargers can take either voltage anyway.

The boat builder that has dealt with the different wiring, cycles and voltage as much as any during the past decade or more is Nordhavn. Their website has a good discussion of "power abroad" and how they design and build for it. One point they did bring up is the price of shore power converters is dropping.

Little of what they say satisfies the mythical question posed by GG. For many years there was a moderator troller on THT that really got things going, up to 10,000 + posts as I recall.

sunchaser said:

Little of what they say satisfies the mythical question posed by GG. For many years there was a moderator troller on THT that really got things going, up to 10,000 + posts as I recall.

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Tom, I went back to the original post. It`s an odd scattergun of questions/implications. You may well be right, though it fits my memory of the type of questions GG posted previously.
Any number of struggling Australian electrical retailers would happily supply a full range of 240v appliances, powering them is something else.
GG, are you helped by the posts so far?

IslandEagle said:

Again, answering because somebody might be interested:

European (two wire, 220V, 50 Hz) systems use (not surprisingly) two wires. There is no "neutral" like we are used to in North America. Furthermore, since 220V requires half the amperage than 110V for the equivalent wattage, branch circuits can be of a lower amapacity (typically 10A).

In practical terms what this all means is the following, starting from the source:

1) The shore power cable will be 16 or 32 amps. This will have to be completely replaced.

2) The main distribution panel, selector switch, meters, breakers, etc. will all be 220V two wire. All of these components will have to be replaced with 110/220 two wire versions.

3) All of the branch circuits are likely two-wire 220V 10 amp circuits. All will need to be replaced with 15 amp wiring (#14).

3) All of the receptacles, light switches, bulb sockets, etc. will be rated and sized for 220V loads, and all will need to be replaced.

4) All 220V transformers and equipment will need to be replaced.

5) All non-universal 220V motors will need to be replaced.

In my books, that adds up to "rewiring".

Scott
Island Eagle

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You are dead on correct! Great post!

all this debate and no additional posts from Galaxy Girl... whoever she.. or he is for that matter?

I think someone is having fun with the members of the forum. Nobody is this ignorant going into a boat of this size... unless it is a professionally skippered boat.
HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

all this debate and no additional posts from Galaxy Girl... whoever she.. or he is for that matter?

I think someone is having fun with the members of the forum. Nobody is this ignorant going into a boat of this size... unless it is a professionally skippered boat.
HOLLYWOOD

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We did. When we bought the Eagle we did not know very much more than Galexy Girl.

So do not be to jugdemental.

Account looks legit here. Boston, MA ISP and a little participation over the past months. No red flags that I can see.

BruceK said:

Tom, I went back to the original post. It`s an odd scattergun of questions/implications. You may well be right, though it fits my memory of the type of questions GG posted previously.
Any number of struggling Australian electrical retailers would happily supply a full range of 240v appliances, powering them is something else.
GG, are you helped by the posts so far?

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It is a lot of different information. I really like Insequen's posts. It seems that he has a very good handle on international modification, especially since he is actually doing one himself right now.

I am still a bit confused as to wether or not I can plug this 220v 50hv boat into a 220v 60hz shore power supply here.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Phil Fill said:

We did. When we bought the Eagle we did not know very much more than Galexy Girl.

So do not be to jugdemental.

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Thank You Phil!!

I always say that folks that don't believe that they can do something themselves, don't believe that others should do it either.

Just because it isn't done the way you think it should be done, doesn't make it wrong. The world is full of of a lot of different people that live their lives in very different ways.

GalaxyGirl said:

It is a lot of different information. I really like Insequen's posts. It seems that he has a very good handle on international modification, especially since he is actually doing one himself right now.

I am still a bit confused as to wether or not I can plug this 220v 50hv boat into a 220v 60hz shore power supply here.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

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No, you cannot. As noted, at a minimum you will have to replace the main panel, which means the breakers as well, in order to conveniently use power supplies here. If you were able to jury rig a shore connection to your existing system, all motors on the vessel would run slowly for awhile, then start to smoke.

Take everyone's advice and call a marine electrician on the east coast that is familiar with conversions and ask for a quote. They will want to know the wire size to the outlets, how many outlets, what kind of electronics of what make, model, voltage, how many motors of what size, how many panels, how many breakers and of what size. What kind of transformer, if any, is on the boat now. In other words a complete description of all electrical components on the boat.

Any European who wants to sell his/her boat in the U.S. will have to have that information to complete a transaction with a knowledgeable buyer. If not, look elsewhere.

GonzoF1 said:

Account looks legit here. Boston, MA ISP and a little participation over the past months. No red flags that I can see.

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And a zip code from Pittsburgh on the profile? Gimme a break! Troller not trawler but with smart leading questions raised and fun for us to pontificate about. Maybe we should all do it when we swallow the anchor but can still dream

Delfin said:

No, you cannot. As noted, at a minimum you will have to replace the main panel, which means the breakers as well, in order to conveniently use power supplies here. If you were able to jury rig a shore connection to your existing system, all motors on the vessel would run slowly for awhile, then start to smoke.

Take everyone's advice and call a marine electrician on the east coast that is familiar with conversions and ask for a quote. They will want to know the wire size to the outlets, how many outlets, what kind of electronics of what make, model, voltage, how many motors of what size, how many panels, how many breakers and of what size. What kind of transformer, if any, is on the boat now. In other words a complete description of all electrical components on the boat.

Any European who wants to sell his/her boat in the U.S. will have to have that information to complete a transaction with a knowledgeable buyer. If not, look elsewhere.

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ok, thnx.

"Transformers have a design frequency. If the transformer has been designed for 50 Hz operation, you cannot necessarily use it on 60 Hz. You will need to check the specifications."

This was true decades ago when the transformer worked with the frequency of the incoming power.

Todays transformers chop the juice into thousands of tiny bits and reassemble it as you desire.Expensive , but light weight.

IF you are willing to use ALL euro goodies , keep the boat as is , lamps , air cond etc , the ONLY item that will need to be purchased is the transformer.

Look at Mastervolt , not cheap but it solves all your problems with one device.

The Euros live quite well with their juice so std of living will not be any problem worldwide.

FF said:

"Transformers have a design frequency. If the transformer has been designed for 50 Hz operation, you cannot necessarily use it on 60 Hz. You will need to check the specifications."

This was true decades ago when the transformer worked with the frequency of the incoming power.

Todays transformers chop the juice into thousands of tiny bits and reassemble it as you desire.Expensive , but light weight.

IF you are willing to use ALL euro goodies , keep the boat as is , lamps , air cond etc , the ONLY item that will need to be purchased is the transformer.

Look at Mastervolt , not cheap but it solves all your problems with one device.

The Euros live quite well with their juice so std of living will not be any problem worldwide.

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hmmmm....that seems easy. This is the transformer currently on the boat: 10KW toriodal isolation transformer.

So, will the transformer change the power from 50hz to 60hz as needed, depending on where you cruise?

IslandEagle said:

All of the receptacles, light switches, bulb sockets, etc. will be rated and sized for 220V loads, and all will need to be replaced.

All 220V transformers and equipment will need to be replaced.

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Do you know anything at all about European marine lighting fixtures and switches? Judging by your posts I would say not.

The troll here isn't GG, that's for sure.

How about showing where this #14 wire thing comes from and please, oh please, tell us why any circuit has to be configured for 15 amps. If I want to limit a circuit to 10 amps all I have to do is put a 10A breaker on it at the switchboard.

I smell a house electrician pretending to be a marine electrician and it stinks.

I also wonder how many of those stating categorically that running a 50Hz motor on 60Hz will end in disaster have ever done that?

Again, I smell house electricians and internet "technicians" who have probably never even been on a European configured boat.

Just for the record, I have had a European hot tub (removed from a large European built yacht) running quite happily at my house for about 4 years now. The pumps and heaters are stock standard, been in service for a few years before I got it and by all indications, will continue to do so for years longer. It has been continuously powered up and runs several hours a day every day as it has since I got it.

And, my chief mate and I take care of a largish (110') Australian built aluminum yacht that has the most amazing mixture of 110 and 220V equipment that happily runs on 50Hz from the generators and 60Hz when on shore power without rewiring each day or bursting into smoke or flame. It has done that for years without benefit of a shore power converter.

Finally, since none of the electrical experts who have spent so much time warning of disaster and financial ruin have mentioned it - transformers don't function as frequency converters.

RickB said:

Do you know anything at all about European marine lighting fixtures and switches? Judging by your posts I would say not.

The troll here isn't GG, that's for sure.

How about showing where this #14 wire thing comes from and please, oh please, tell us why any circuit has to be configured for 15 amps. If I want to limit a circuit to 10 amps all I have to do is put a 10A breaker on it at the switchboard.

I smell a house electrician pretending to be a marine electrician and it stinks.

I also wonder how many of those stating categorically that running a 50Hz motor on 60Hz will end in disaster have ever done that?

Again, I smell house electricians and internet "technicians" who have probably never even been on a European configured boat.

Just for the record, I have had a European hot tub (removed from a large European built yacht) running quite happily at my house for about 4 years now. The pumps and heaters are stock standard, been in service for a few years before I got it and by all indications, will continue to do so for years longer. It has been continuously powered up and runs several hours a day every day as it has since I got it.

And, my chief mate and I take care of a largish (110') Australian built aluminum yacht that has the most amazing mixture of 110 and 220V equipment that happily runs on 50Hz from the generators and 60Hz when on shore power without rewiring each day or bursting into smoke or flame. It has done that for years without benefit of a shore power converter.

Finally, since none of the electrical experts who have spent so much time warning of disaster and financial ruin have mentioned it - transformers don't function as frequency converters.

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Yeah, I just googled that Rick. It said exactly that, transformers don't function as a frequency converter. I think your right.

So, you are also suggesting that I could plug the boat into the 60hz here and it would be fine. Do I have that right?

GalaxyGirl said:

So, you are also suggesting that I could plug the boat into the 60hz here and it would be fine. Do I have that right?

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I applaud your courage and curiosity but as I have said a couple of times you still don't know the right questions to ask. Its your money I guess I should quit worrying.

You need to understand that there are 2 significant differences between European power and North American power - frequency and voltage. Their frequency is 50 Hz; ours is 60 Hz. Personally I wouldn't worry a lot about that but its not my money that would go up in smoke if it didn't work out. Hz is not likely to light your boat on fire. The voltage thing is more complicated because what we call 220 volts and what the Europeans call 220 volts is subtly different but that difference could turn your boat into smoke. You need to re-read this thread until you understand the subtleties of that voltage difference because it has been explained here.

GG

I asked some simple questions - five of them - in post #5. And the answers, requiring no electrical, mechanical or boating knowledge, are: ?????

RickB said:

Do you know anything at all about European marine lighting fixtures and switches? Judging by your posts I would say not.

The troll here isn't GG, that's for sure.

How about showing where this #14 wire thing comes from and please, oh please, tell us why any circuit has to be configured for 15 amps. If I want to limit a circuit to 10 amps all I have to do is put a 10A breaker on it at the switchboard.

I smell a house electrician pretending to be a marine electrician and it stinks.

I also wonder how many of those stating categorically that running a 50Hz motor on 60Hz will end in disaster have ever done that?

Again, I smell house electricians and internet "technicians" who have probably never even been on a European configured boat.

Just for the record, I have had a European hot tub (removed from a large European built yacht) running quite happily at my house for about 4 years now. The pumps and heaters are stock standard, been in service for a few years before I got it and by all indications, will continue to do so for years longer. It has been continuously powered up and runs several hours a day every day as it has since I got it.

And, my chief mate and I take care of a largish (110') Australian built aluminum yacht that has the most amazing mixture of 110 and 220V equipment that happily runs on 50Hz from the generators and 60Hz when on shore power without rewiring each day or bursting into smoke or flame. It has done that for years without benefit of a shore power converter.

Finally, since none of the electrical experts who have spent so much time warning of disaster and financial ruin have mentioned it - transformers don't function as frequency converters.

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Rick instead of attacking people's employment that you do not agree with you, how about if you explain in technical terms, since you are a marine professional, how you would convert the electrical outlets from a two wire 220 V phase to neutral European system to a 120 V three wire phase to neutral American system without bringing in an additional wire.

Also could you explain how a 220 V refrigerator compressor is going to run on 120 V phase to neutral power.

Thanks

This mini Hz and V debate pales in comparison to real world electrical events, such as:

• Over 110 years ago Edison liked 110 DC and Tesla 240 V 3 phase AC. Guess who won?
• England was 60 cycle until after WWII when they went 50 cycle to join the rest of Europe.
• Europe was 50 cycle early on because it fit better with the metric system than 60 cycle.
• European houses etc were 110 V until after the end of WWII when they went 220 V
• Ship and airplane systems can be (universally I'm not sure) 400 Hz to allow smaller electrical motors per E=BANf

ksanders said:

Also could you explain how a 220 V refrigerator compressor is going to run on 120 V phase to neutral power.

Thanks

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Through the current onboard Euro inverter is one way.

sunchaser said:

Through the current onboard Euro inverter is one way.

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Yep, that'll work...as long as you have DC.

Now, what about the 220 volt battery charger. How is that going to get powered again??

A couple of challenges here. First, its a big assumption that there is 240 volt shore power available. 240 volt power is not universially available at docks for a 60' boat. 120 volt power is.

Even if we make the assumption that 240 volt power is available, a big assumption... its still not that easy. It can be done, but it will require much more thought than many people here might think.

Here's a challenge I just thought about.
With reference to earth ground...

In a 220 volt system, one of the conductors is the neutral so its grounded.

In a 240 volt system both of the conductors are 120 volts to ground.

So, even plugging in a european appliance would subject what the designer thought was a grounded conductor to 120 volts. That in an of itself might not be an issue, but it might. Without testing, how would you know?

For example in the european system how does the metalic frame of say a fridge work out. Is the metalic frame floating, or is it bonded to the european Neutral. Whouldn't that be a shocker. Plug in the boat to 240 VAC and find out your frame is now energized.

This particular issue could be mitigated by an isolation transformer but then there would be no 120 volt buss for any american devices on the boat, unless its an American center tapped 240 volt isolation transformer

People can jury rig anything. That doesn't make it safe.

ksanders said:

Rick instead of attacking people's employment that you do not agree with you, how about if you explain in technical terms, since you are a marine professional, how you would convert the electrical outlets from a two wire 220 V phase to neutral European system to a 120 V three wire phase to neutral American system without bringing in an additional wire.

Also could you explain how a 220 V refrigerator compressor is going to run on 120 V phase to neutral power.

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To start, the "standard" Euro style outlet has 3 wires, two for power and one ground. The ground is a ground and one of the wires can become a neutral.

Some outlets have only two connections just like an American ungrounded plug and socket. One side becomes the neutral, the other is hot.

There are as many "standard" plugs and sockets as there are EU members, no single blanket statement covers them all.

Not all branch circuits require the magic "15 Amps" you keep harping about. If you had ever been on a European built boat you would never have posted the nonsense you did.

If you can't figure out the refrigerator issue then I sure can't help you. You are the one who came here pretending to be a marine electrical expert.

FF said:

"Transformers have a design frequency. If the transformer has been designed for 50 Hz operation, you cannot necessarily use it on 60 Hz. You will need to check the specifications."

This was true decades ago when the transformer worked with the frequency of the incoming power.

Todays transformers chop the juice into thousands of tiny bits and reassemble it as you desire.Expensive , but light weight.

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No, this is not correct.

DC power supplies, which take AC and produce DC, used to be built using transformers. The required a specific voltage and frequency. Many modern DC power supplies are "switching mode" power supplies, which work by converting the incoming 50/60 Hz AC into much higher frequency AC (several thousand Hz), running that through a transformer, and converting the resultant AC to DC. This is done because the physical size of the transformer can be smaller with increased frequency.

A good example of this is a modern battery charger, which weighs a tenth of what it would have two decades ago.

None of this has any relevance to isolation transformers, which are (as the name implies) transformers.

RickB said:

Do you know anything at all about European marine lighting fixtures and switches? Judging by your posts I would say not.

The troll here isn't GG, that's for sure.

How about showing where this #14 wire thing comes from and please, oh please, tell us why any circuit has to be configured for 15 amps. If I want to limit a circuit to 10 amps all I have to do is put a 10A breaker on it at the switchboard.

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Take a look at this ampacity table, from Ancor: Allowable Amperage | Marinco

Note the ampacity of #16 3 conductor in an ER space: 14.9. Ergo, the smallest wire you can put a 15A breaker on is #14.

Yes, absolutely you can run #16 branch circuits and fuse them at 10A. And that would be a piss-poor job, because the first person to plug in a blow drier / iron / shop vac would pop the breaker. The point here is that in order to do a proper wiring job, you run 15A branch circuits.

RickB said:

And, my chief mate and I take care of a largish (110') Australian built aluminum yacht that has the most amazing mixture of 110 and 220V equipment that happily runs on 50Hz from the generators and 60Hz when on shore power without rewiring each day or bursting into smoke or flame. It has done that for years without benefit of a shore power converter.

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The point was not whether this was possible or not, it was the effort required to make it work. I'm sure your first mate would agree that a mixed 110/220/50Hz/60Hz is substantially beyond the maintainence and operational abilities of the average user.