New Age tranny lubrication

Our new to us boat has New Age transmissions. In the PO's maintenance log there is one mention of using Rotella synthetic in the transmissions. Anybody know the proper lube for these transmissions? I have found refererences to using engine oil. Is there an easy way to determine if the current lube is synthetic? I understand that mixing synthetic with real oil is not good practice.

Thanks,

Bob

Mixing synthetic is fine.

Just read the recommendations from the transmission manufacturer.

There is no miracle lube and no need for it.

Engine lube oil in a gear box is not good.

Don't New Age transmissions require a mixture of patchouli and hemp oils?

manyboats said:

Mixing synthetic is fine.


Engine lube oil in a gear box is not good.

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I seem to recall some transmissions use 30 wt motor oil

BobH said:

Our new to us boat has New Age transmissions. In the PO's maintenance log there is one mention of using Rotella synthetic in the transmissions. Anybody know the proper lube for these transmissions? I have found refererences to using engine oil. Is there an easy way to determine if the current lube is synthetic? I understand that mixing synthetic with real oil is not good practice.

Thanks,

Bob

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At least on my TwinDisk, I seem to recall that the use of any multi-grade oil, including synthetic, voids the warranty. They specify single weight, and when I talked to the distributor, he preferred Delo 30 engine oil. Best to check with mfg or distributor to sort it out.

sunchaser said:

I seem to recall some transmissions use 30 wt motor oil

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Correct! My 48 Offshore had Twin Disc transmissions and used 30wt. engine oil.

This is from Trans Atlantic Diesels web site for the Newage PRM500 transmission.

TAD for Newage PRM500 Marine Transmissions, PRM500 Transmissions, PRM Marine Transmissions, Newage PRM

"The hydraulic operating system functions on normal lubricating oil of the same viscosity as that used in the engine, avoiding the need to use automatic transmission fluid..."

"New Age tranny lubrication"

I don't believe I would use the terms "tranny" and "lubrication" in the same sentence!

About 8 years ago, a friend who had a brand new Nordhavn 57 invited my wife and I for a cruise out of April Point, B.C. We accepted, of course, but I was concerned as to how much experience my friend had in those waters and with the new boat.

After anchoring for a night, I arose first and decided to have a look in the ER. What greeted me was the sight of oil in the drip pan and overflowing to the bilge. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that the transmission fill plug had come loose and was laying in the drip pan. (Poor design on the plug...no threads, just a squeeze fit like and old thermos bottle.)

When the owner came below, he said that he had cases of ATF and we could refill and secure the plug in short order. Since I had a boat whos transmissions used regular 30wt. engine oil, I questioned his statement and a minor pissing contest ensued. It was decided that we would review the Twin Disc owners manual and check for the recommended oil. Of course I was right dance as the booked called for SAE 30wt. He was embarrassed & said very little for the next 24 hours.

With the transitioning of the Seymour Narrows scheduled for the following day, I was, to say the least, concerned!

That, however, is another story.

Tom says

"I seem to recall some transmissions use 30 wt motor oil"

I do too but gear oil has special additives to help it cope w the extreme pressures of gears under load, anti-foaming needs and no doubt others. ATF is a good light weight oil w additives appropriate to clutches and hydraulic shifting and clutching. Most trawler transmissions will have hydraulic clutches and additive consideration should be given to that feature. Mechanical gears can use a much wider range of lubrication oils.

But the manufacturer should know what's good for general service. And most all of us should fit under the "general service" umbrella.

I once had an extremely noisy mechanical gear w an aluminum case and mixed my own concoction of rather extreme lubricants plus a bronze electric gear pump and oil cooler to cool the oil to quiet the thing down. I won.

sunchaser said:

I seem to recall some transmissions use 30 wt motor oil

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Tom-- Some people have said that the same lube oil they use in their engines can be used in their BW Velvet Drive transmission and some of them do this. I assumed this was correct but I just went to confirm this with the BW VD manual on the GB owners forum and found that in the "recommended oils" section only ATF is listed.

Now I know manufactures' recomendations can change over time-- for example our 1973 FL120 manual specifies ONLY single weight lube oil but later versions of the manual include some multi-vis options-- so it may be that the 30 wt lube oil in the BW VD manual is a later (or earlier) option. I seem to recall seeing it in the VD manual that came with our boat as an "if necessary" alternative but I'm not positive.

In any event we run the recommended ATF in our transmissions.

For what it's worth, the owners manual for my engine/transmission (Volvo) calls for the same 30 weight oil in the transmission as in the engine. For some reason, they call what we would think of as the transmission a "reverse gear".

Ron,

The reason they are called reverse gears is that early gear boxes were mostly direct drive and the basic reason for them was the reverse gear. Later those that were were called reduction gears. I'm guessing at the time frame but prop ably in the 30s to the early 50s the boat gear boxes were called reverse gears. They were usually shifted directly by a lever connected to the gear box.

The expression "tranny" is hot rod slang and has no maritime implications. I consider those who use the word tranny as only loosely connected (if at all) to marine mechanics.

manyboats said:

Ron,

The reason they are called reverse gears is that early gear boxes were mostly direct drive and the basic reason for them was the reverse gear. Later those that were were called reduction gears. I'm guessing at the time frame but prop ably in the 30s to the early 50s the boat gear boxes were called reverse gears. They were usually shifted directly by a lever connected to the gear box..

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Fine, but my engine/transmission is from 1999.

Marin said:

Tom-- Some people have said that the same lube oil they use in their engines can be used in their BW Velvet Drive transmission and some of them do this. I assumed this was correct but I just went to confirm this with the BW VD manual on the GB owners forum and found that in the "recommended oils" section only ATF is listed.

Now I know manufactures' recomendations can change over time-- for example our 1973 FL120 manual specifies ONLY single weight lube oil but later versions of the manual include some multi-vis options-- so it may be that the 30 wt lube oil in the BW VD manual is a later (or earlier) option. I seem to recall seeing it in the VD manual that came with our boat as an "if necessary" alternative but I'm not positive.

In any event we run the recommended ATF in our transmissions.

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I was pleased to see Marin's statement quoted above, re his using ATF. While reading this thread I was surprised to see ongoing recommendations of motor oils used for trany fluids (although BW trans manual quote at bottom explains why some boaters use engine oils).

Via two master marine mechanics and two marine transmission rebuild specialists (all four renowned in this geographic area), as well as a few good ol’ decades experienced power boat pros... I carefully researched what was the best fluid to put into our Tolly’s C71 Velvet Drive Borg Warner tranies. Dexron II (GM) and Type F (Ford) ATF are neck and neck as the best fluids to use. I gained information that to reduce wear and get the longest duration before trans overhaul in BW trany (C71 and C72 models) their plates need the best immediate friction capabilities at each instance of initial coupling into gear while engine is at idle rpm. Therefore, as experts explained to me, the best, correct ATF fluids extend trany lifespan.

BORG WARNER C71 TRANSMISSION MANUAL OUOTE

“Type of Oil: TRANSMISSION FLUID – General Motors Dexron II and III, Ford Mercron, Daimler-Benz 236.6, or any SAE 10 hydraulic oil that meets Allison 3, Caterpillar TO-2 or equivalent specifications is recommended. Do not mix brands of fluids.”

“If engine does not exceed 3000 rpm a premium SAE 30, API-CD engine oil is acceptable. SAE 40 and multi viscosity oils are not recommended.”

The reverse gear term is what Volvo has been using as far as I can remember. The same term is on my instruction book, and on engine and reverse gear repair manuals (mine are from 1986). We Europeans like to use old terms...

All my manuals say that use the same oil in the reverse gear as in the engine and this is what I do. The engine calls for 15w-40 (mineral) and the same goes for the transmission (ms3c).

Art said:

“If engine does not exceed 3000 rpm a premium SAE 30, API-CD engine oil is acceptable. SAE 40 and multi viscosity oils are not recommended.”

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I think this statement may be in our VD operations manual. It is not in the VD manual on the GB owners forum.

Art said:

I was pleased to see Marin's statement quoted above, re his using ATF. While reading this thread I was surprised to see ongoing recommendations of motor oils used for trany fluids (although BW trans manual quote at bottom explains why some boaters use engine oils).

Via two master marine mechanics and two marine transmission rebuild specialists (all four renowned in this geographic area), as well as a few good ol’ decades experienced power boat pros... I carefully researched what was the best fluid to put into our Tolly’s C71 Velvet Drive Borg Warner tranies. Dexron II (GM) and Type F (Ford) ATF are neck and neck as the best fluids to use. I gained information that to reduce wear and get the longest duration before trans overhaul in BW trany (C71 and C72 models) their plates need the best immediate friction capabilities at each instance of initial coupling into gear while engine is at idle rpm. Therefore, as experts explained to me, the best, correct ATF fluids extend trany lifespan.

BORG WARNER C71 TRANSMISSION MANUAL OUOTE

“Type of Oil: TRANSMISSION FLUID – General Motors Dexron II and III, Ford Mercron, Daimler-Benz 236.6, or any SAE 10 hydraulic oil that meets Allison 3, Caterpillar TO-2 or equivalent specifications is recommended. Do not mix brands of fluids.”

“If engine does not exceed 3000 rpm a premium SAE 30, API-CD engine oil is acceptable. SAE 40 and multi viscosity oils are not recommended.”

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This illustrates why actually checking to see what the mgr calls for is not a bad idea. If you follow the above advice on a Twindisk, not only will it howl like a banshee, but you won't have a warranty. Clearly correct for a BW, clearly not for a Twindisk.

My Hurth reverse gears use ATF, per the book. The biggest transmissions I have been around were in Cat mine haul trucks - 30 wt motor oil for the transmissons in that case. As Delfin says, check your book since marine gear designs are not all the same.

"Engine lube oil in a gear box is not good."

Our Twin Disc requires 50 wt non detergent oil.

sunchaser said:

My Hurth reverse gears use ATF, per the book. The biggest transmissions I have been around were in Cat mine haul trucks - 30 wt motor oil for the transmissons in that case. As Delfin says, check your book since marine gear designs are not all the same.

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My present boat also uses ATF in its Hurth transmission. Over the years, though, I had 3 other boats that used SAE 30wt in their Twin Disc transmissions. When I see a blanket statement such as: "Engine lube oil in a gear box is not good", I really get upset! There are other statements made on this Forum, if taken seriously, will get the owner in deep s--t. I think it's fine to state one's "opinion" but to make a comment that comes across as a statement of fact is reckless at best.

FF said:

"Engine lube oil in a gear box is not good."

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My manual calls for the same oil in the transmission as in the engine. How can you make a blanket statement that "Engine lube oil in a gear box is not good"?

Who knows more about it, you or the manufacturer?

The manufacturer specifies engine oil. The question was, there is a reference from the PO that he used synthetic oil in the transmission. If he did, I would continue using synthetic, otherwise I would use the same oil that I use for the engine, Rotella 15W-40. Is there a simple way to determine if the transmissions contain synthetic or real oil?

Since it is virtually impossible to drain all the oil, I don't want to end up mixing synthetic and real oil.

Bob

SeaHorse II said:

My present boat also uses ATF in its Hurth transmission. Over the years, though, I had 3 other boats that used SAE 30wt in their Twin Disc transmissions. When I see a blanket statement such as: "Engine lube oil in a gear box is not good", I really get upset! There are other statements made on this Forum, if taken seriously, will get the owner in deep s--t. I think it's fine to state one's "opinion" but to make a comment that comes across as a statement of fact is reckless at best.

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So true. Some Paragons use motor oil. There are some transmissions set up to use the engine oil as their lube. If I remember correctly an Atomic four uses the same oil for both Transmission and engine. In fact the same pan on the Atomic four. http://pearsonvanguard.homestead.com/files/atomic4d.jpg
Other Paragons and Walters use 30 wt as well. After the 200 series the transmissions used ATF.

From the PRM Newage Web site:



PRM Marine Ltd

Q: What Oil does my gearbox take?

A: A mechanical unit must use ATF Dextron II or III and a Hydraulic unit must use 15W40

BobH said:

Since it is virtually impossible to drain all the oil, I don't want to end up mixing synthetic and real oil. Bob

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The "by the book" way to do the change over is add a quart (gallon for big gear boxes) of new stuff and pump it out too. Repeat once or twice and you're good to go. This works for engines, gear boxes, pump and fan drives etc.

I do this on my engines where about 1/2 gallon of dirty oil cannot be pumped out due to engine's backward tilt. The oil stays a lot cleaner when I flush with 1/2 gallon of fresh oil, visually anyway - I feel better - not sure if engine does though.

Larry M said:

From the PRM Newage Web site:



PRM Marine Ltd

Q: What Oil does my gearbox take?

A: A mechanical unit must use ATF Dextron II or III and a Hydraulic unit must use 15W40

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Maybe with their company but not with all. The defining factor with some is if the transmission has a pressure pump or not. Pressure pump ATF non pressure pump Engine oil. The old Paragons used the linkage to engage the clutch pack so they had no pressure pump but the newer ones in most transmissions use a pressure pump and the linkage is like on a car it just selects various valve positions to engage the proper clutch packs.

I went to their site and for what they call mechanical they want ATF and it says so in their transmission literature, under oil cooling but for their Hydraulic (with pressure pump) it says in their literature under cooling nothing about type. A bit confusing.

manyboats said:

Ron,

The expression "tranny" is hot rod slang and has no maritime implications. I consider those who use the word tranny as only loosely connected (if at all) to marine mechanics.

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So sorry to have offended. I guess I'll just have to crawl back under my rock and stick to car forums. And here I've been trying so hard to fit in saying port and starboard instead of left and right, or is it right and left. I guess you can't turn an old gearhead into a proper boater.

Bob

Larry M said:

From the PRM Newage Web site:



PRM Marine Ltd

Q: What Oil does my gearbox take?

A: A mechanical unit must use ATF Dextron II or III and a Hydraulic unit must use 15W40

Click to expand...

Thanks for that site. I downloaded some specs for the gearbox on our boat and it definitely specifies engine oil. I guess the key is "mechanical". I'll have to investigate further, I had not found the PRM Marine site.

Bob

manyboats said:

Ron,
The expression "tranny" is hot rod slang and has no maritime implications. I consider those who use the word tranny as only loosely connected (if at all) to marine mechanics.

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Your being a little harsh here aren't you? Hell most folks here are only loosely connected period.

Now don't tell me you have produced a video we should all see.