Circumnavigating

What particular items makes a boat capable to circumnavigate? Other than Nordhavens what other brands have or can do it? I know fuel range, redundancy But are there build requirement ie certain types of windows or not these type of doors or a three inch thick hull! Spoke to a builder at Trawler Fest and he called a Kadey Krogen a coastal cruiser I had no argument for him so I come to you!!
Gregg

If you go to Nordhavn's website there is a description of "standards" to which a current blue water cruising motor vessel should be built.

All sorts of smaller (less than 24 m) motor vessels have done ocean crossings. Based upon what I heard at the recent Seattle Show, KK's nice new 52 is waiting for their first customer to do this so they can claim bragging rites for that build. Other KKs have done blue water ocean crossings with both the 48 and 58 popular choices., The TF resident blue water KK cruiser is Larry on Hobo - a KK 42.

Read Brian Calvert's blog about his recent Pacific travels on his Selene 48. Nordhavn's rule the blue water waves in sheer numbers. Northern Marine builds very nice blue water vessels. The best, but not the prettiest or cheapest is Dashew's FPB.

Seems like there are a lot of variables to define a vessel "capable" of crossing oceans. A lot would depend on personal preferences. Since people circumnavigate in 24' sailboats built for lake sailing you can make the trip in most anything that floats. That said, my personal requirements for power are stabilization of some kind (passive or active), mechanical reliability, some means of propulsion if your wheel gets damaged (sail or get home), water production (showers are nice), refrigeration that doesn't suck the batteries dry when inverting, fuel polishing and tankage sufficient for 4,000 miles plus. If you fancy cold weather trips, or cruising where you can run aground on coral a hull made of something other than fiberglass has appeal.

In my personal opinion - a sailboat. We have both a sailboat and a trawler, and each has its strengths and weaknesses. If I were going to cross oceans, I'd go sail. For the Carribean, I think it could be a toss-up. For coastal cruising, power makes more sense for us.

A lot depends on the persons knowledge, and experience. The less the experience/knowledge the person the great the capability of the boat should be. In my case a large cruise ship would do!

A coastal cruiser does not have the capability of circumnavigating boat, and I would classify the Krogan/Nord/Selene under 60 ft as coastal cruisers. Just because a few Nord/Selene under 60 ft have cross an ocean does not make them circumnavigating vessel for about 99% of us boaters. There are far more sail and/or motorsailer capable of circumnavigating than power boats. and you do not have to be millionaire and/or have a multi million dollar boat.

It might be cheaper in the long run to buy a coastal cruise boat and ship the boat across the ocean than to buy one. There are shipping companies that speciallize in shipping boats around the world.

Phil Fill said:

A lot depends on the persons knowledge, and experience. The less the experience/knowledge the person the great the capability of the boat should be. In my case a large cruise ship would do!

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Wataworld said:

What particular items makes a boat capable to circumnavigate?

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The OP is questioning MVs, not SVs.

Budget is the key question though. As Delfin notes, lots of different MVs will work but what type of MV fits your budget? As Phil notes, skill and experience play a role determining how many good crew you may need to assist you. And yes, lots of Nordhavn 46 and 47s have done the serious blue water stuff.

Maybe I should explain a little more, my current thoughts are a 45 - 55 foot trawler (only) No SV no experience! The kinda input preferred is Manufacturer of the boats and perhaps the specific model ie canoe back an perhaps best years made! Delfin you bring up some great points 1 question how did you come to 4000 mile capacity? Phil Fill to add to my explanation Imy plan is to stay some what local (Bahamas north to Canada) till my skill level and comfort level points me further out in addition the crew will be my wife and myself my mechanical prowess is alright and would under take any required repairs but if help is nearby would probably enlist them. Are you saying any body who did their circumnavigating under 60 is lucky to have returned or is there that much more skill in picking weather opportunities
Looking foward to the responces
Gregg

Budgets are very dificult to assertain to that I would say as little as necasary with the emphisis on necesary! I would like to stay with a more modern hull let say 1990 or newer but I do not know why other than the prices i see at YW! Are there waves were one type of construction evolved to the top and another fell away such as bottom paints and coatings (no wood in the boat vs wood stringers) all iput helps even negative input!

I think this bloke circumnavigated the wourld the hard way.I have his name on the Nordhavn list of circumnavigators .BEN CARLIN he came from HENDOS neck of the woods,Perth western australia. this is a you tube clip about him and his craft? half safe.

Half-Safe amphibious jeep segment on Can We Help ABC TV - YouTube

Hay Hendo, you can see" half safe" at Guildford gramma school, it must have been a bugger to sleep in there the cot is only one bum wide, if that.It's worth a look ,i saw it a couple of years a go,was told one year the kids put it in the pool and it did float,they look it up now.
Gordon.

Get a copy of "Voyaging Under Power", hopefully a first edition and it will tell you most of what you want to know. I read mine maybe 3-4 times, and use it as a reference book. Remember that when you are crossing oceans, you are just going somewhere else to go coastal cruising. A good weather router is probably one of the most important things.

The main factor in circumnavigating is the people doing it.
If you have the will, courage and conviction you are most of the way there.
All the listed boats are capable, Nordys, KK, Selene plus many smaller unit production and custom boats.
Check my thread long distance cruising in the down under section.
A couple did the round the world in a timber motor cruiser in the late 80's
Nothing special about the boat but well built, good engine and adequate fuel. For the West Coast USA to Hawaii they did carry some extra fuel on deck.

A well found boat with good fuel/range in the right hands and with excellent weather routing is more than capable.
Stabilisers are not an absolute requirement but do make it more comfortable.
Cheers
Benn

Beebe went around with this

Wataworld:

Delfin is correct. What are your standards? Anything that floats can go around the world.
Beebe, as said above, went around many years ago with this:

Wataworld said:

Maybe I should explain a little more, my current thoughts are a 45 - 55 foot trawler (only) No SV no experience! The kinda input preferred is Manufacturer of the boats and perhaps the specific model ie canoe back an perhaps best years made! Delfin you bring up some great points 1 question how did you come to 4000 mile capacity? Phil Fill to add to my explanation Imy plan is to stay some what local (Bahamas north to Canada) till my skill level and comfort level points me further out in addition the crew will be my wife and myself my mechanical prowess is alright and would under take any required repairs but if help is nearby would probably enlist them. Are you saying any body who did their circumnavigating under 60 is lucky to have returned or is there that much more skill in picking weather opportunities
Looking foward to the responces
Gregg

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The reason for the range is because you mentioned circumnavigation. If you check the distances between landfalls in the Pacific you'll see why range like that is pretty desirable. Just because there is a landfall, it doesn't mean that fuel is available for a reasonable price, and just because a straight line can be drawn between two points doesn't mean you will want to travel that route.

I would list stabilization as an essential for the same reason Beebe did. Without it, ocean travel can be exceedingly uncomfortable, with food preparation or even moving around the boat underway becoming a potentially dangerous but always tiring event. For an example, consider the 1979 Fastnet race that experienced a force 10 storm. A number of vessels were dis-masted and a number of lives lost by people who would rather step onto a life raft in the Atlantic in a storm than stay onboard what was essentially now a very well ballasted trawler. Granted, they were stationary, but possible death looked better to them than staying on those boats. As a result, many died.

Beyond a sea worthy hull, stabilization, good mechanics and fuel capacity most everything else is a design feature that may increase the safety margin or comfort, but may not be essential to the task. A canoe stern is nice, but not essential. If you look at Delfin's profile you'll see the pilot house overhangs the deck, which is a feature that breaks the energy of boarding waves. Nice, but not essential. Off the top of my head, I would rank the characteristics of a circumnavigator in descending order of importance to be:
1. Sound, stable, efficient and strong hull that is less stable upside down than right side up.
2. Sound mechanicals not more complex than the mechanical skills of the captain
3. Stabilization
4. Range
5. High bulwarks
6. Battery capacity
7. Watermaker
8. Canoe stern
9. Refrigeration that doesn't suck the batteries dry in 12 hours
10. Good ventilation in the tropics

This is just a list of personal preferences that many would reorder but they are mine. Tad Roberts, our resident NA could provide a more definitive and informed list.

Regarding specific designs you're really talking budget, but pound for pound and dollar for dollar I like Norhavn 46's, who have proven themselves many times to be very satisfactory blue water boats.

Delfin said:

Regarding specific designs you're really talking budget, but pound for pound and dollar for dollar I like Norhavn 46's, who have proven themselves many times to be very satisfactory blue water boats.

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I agree with the blue water capabilities of the Nordy 46 but having toured one (my Colorado friend's) I was disappointed with the livable room on the boat.

SeaHorse II said:

I agree with the blue water capabilities of the Nordy 46 but having toured one (my Colorado friend's) I was disappointed with the livable room on the boat.

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Right you are Walt, but that is where budget comes into play. A well found and ready to travel 2000 nm across the Pacific N46 with the right gear will cost about $450K. A ready to go N47 offers a bit more space but will set you back about $750K. The next step up is a N55 which ready to go is about $1M. An N62 ready to go will cost about $1.3M.

Delfin has pretty well nailed the details and attributes most are looking for in a circumnavigator. Benn offers a way for the experienced to do it cheaper. Do remember resale value at the end of the journey. That is why Nordhavn has a following, even in the tough times their boats can be resold.

If I gone total insane and decided to cross the Pacific, I would cruise down the coast to Mexico and follow the Pacific North Equatorial Current that flows west to Hawaii and is a popular shipping lane to the China/Japan. To cross the Atlantic I would go north and cross at Newfoundland and follow the North Atlantic current across to Span/France which is also a popular shipping lane. The ocean current north of the Equator flow clock wise and the ocean south of the Equator flow count clock and so do gneral weather patterns. The ocean current ranges from 0.5 to 1.0 knots and with sails can increase speed to 3 to 8 knots. So learn the ocean flow, weather patterns and shipping lanes.

Most boat under 60 ft do not have the range and/or capable to cross ocean. Sure a few have done it, but 99% are coastal, which mean if they watch the weather they can make hopes out into blue water. It takes 20 to 30 days to cross an ocean. Since the % is very small you will cross an ocean, but plan to be live aboard a larger % of the time, you might want to be more concerned about live aboard creature comforts and what you know for sure you will due with the boat.


Yes I have given it some thought as the Eagle does have the range, a few have cross oceans but 20 to 30 grand would have to be invested. However, it would be cheap and easier to just ship the boat. However, I first have to get weaned from the dock!

I think you guys are all wuss's......

Two teenage girls did it recently (singlehanded) in production fiberglass sailboats of less than 40', Webb Chiles almost did it in a stock 18' open Drascombe Lugger, and 1991 Anthony "Ant" Steward sailed the 19' open NCS Challenger around.

One of the first "average" guys to do it was Dutchman Eilco Kasemier in the 39' Bylgia II, he circumnavigated in 198 days in 1983-84. Bylgia is aluminum, round-bottomed full displacement, with a single Perkins (I think?) diesel.

An American did it in a modified 24' Zodiac called Sunrider. He had two Yanmar diesel outboards that ran on vegetable oil.

So boat size is not important. What's important is that the boat be strongly built and truly watertight. A reliable power plant is also important. Everything after that is nice to have, but not strictly necessary....Personally I'd like a Gardner and stabilizers (paravanes).

"Personally I'd like a Gardner and stabilizers (paravanes)."

Tad,
Hit the nail on the head with those 2. along with nice solid boat and good weather and away we go.
Size of boat, out there 45 to 65 ft doesn't matter, if you are getting flogged 15/20 ft won't make all that much difference.
Wolfgang and Heidi and their Nordy 46' have been around twice and are still at it and they are no spring chickens.
They were recently in our marina and headed north last year , fit a new gen set and then up thru Indo.
Benn

...boat size is not important. What's important is the...

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...PERSON! Please don't take this the wrong way, but finding the right boat is the easy part. Are you ready for 18-20 days at sea? If something breaks you're it? You have to fix it, there is no one else. Single vs twins, only kidding forum members. All kidding aside, it's a great trip but don't over look the mental part of ocean passages and circumnavigating.

Tad Roberts said:

I think you guys are all wuss's......

Two teenage girls did it recently (singlehanded) in production fiberglass sailboats of less than 40', Webb Chiles almost did it in a stock 18' open Drascombe Lugger, and 1991 Anthony "Ant" Steward sailed the 19' open NCS Challenger around.

One of the first "average" guys to do it was Dutchman Eilco Kasemier in the 39' Bylgia II, he circumnavigated in 198 days in 1983-84. Bylgia is aluminum, round-bottomed full displacement, with a single Perkins (I think?) diesel.

An American did it in a modified 24' Zodiac called Sunrider. He had two Yanmar diesel outboards that ran on vegetable oil.

So boat size is not important. What's important is that the boat be strongly built and truly watertight. A reliable power plant is also important. Everything after that is nice to have, but not strictly necessary....Personally I'd like a Gardner and stabilizers (paravanes).

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Without stabilizers, one's Martini tends to slop out of the glass, which is not acceptable.

Problem solved!

Delfin said:

Without stabilizers, one's Martini tends to slop out of the glass, which is not acceptable.

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Carl,
Passage making one needs to think out of the box.... problem solved!

HOLLYWOOD

I figure if I can get the Admiral to cross oceans again the boat will be a N46, one can be had for well under $ 500,000 and they have a proven record as a true passage maker that will get you there. If the budget allows for a bigger boat that will be a different story. But as a boat that a couple can manage, has fairly low cost per mile, has decent space.. they are hard to match.
HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

Carl,
Passage making one needs to think out of the box.... problem solved!

HOLLYWOOD

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Of course. Why didn't I think of that? Thanks Hollywood!

I'm thinking about crossing the Pacific, using my 'coastal trawler'. Right now I'm thinking just once, one way and the shortest practical route at the best times of the year for each sector. If you do even just a little bit of a bit of research you will come to agree with Beebe's figure for range: 2400nm is enough. Unless you plan on getting lost or driving in circles.

My key unresolved concerns are green water - vulnerable windows and down-flooding, and flooding engine room via its ventilation system. Sure I'll get weather-routing, but in planning the 'what-ifs' need to be asked. People do get caught in storms.... I've no intention of dying while I'm doing it.

Anyone who thinks its cheaper and easier to ship a 50' trawler across oceans has not got an actual shipping quote recently.

The big problem is the boat must be constucted to be an ocean crossing vessel from the begining.

This equals a hull , and deck and Pilot house that can take a series of waves breaking on board. This level of scantlings is very rare and very expensive on a power boat tho std on even most small sail boats.

The interior will loose the volume of extra large fuel and water tanks , as well as space for food stores.For reliability at least 2 power sources and 2 seperiate systems would be required for refrigeration , deep freeze.

Unless the crew is very skilled all items aboard should be looked at as AFTER failure, how will the vessel continue with least hassles.

Most boats that can cross oceans 2000-4000 mile range will be large and complex as they usually are custom created for a specific owner .

This is Big Bucks , so used they are expensive , and rare.

The usual lakes, bays and coastal cruiser does not have the "bones" to be converted to offshore use.

A used Euro motor sailor would be lowest cost source of a suitable vessel.

FF said:

This equals a hull , and deck and Pilot house that can take a series of waves breaking on board. This level of scantlings is very rare and very expensive on a power boat tho std on even most small sail boats.

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I keep hearing the word 'stability', but invariably with the word 'booze' in the same sentence! Now then, what are these stabilisers you all talk about?

And what is the stability of trawlers? I mean, I know that on sailing yachts, thanks to our keel, we can roll beyond 90 degrees (I think even 120 in most cases) and the boat will right itself. How far can you roll in a trawler?

110 degrees in my Krogen 42, according to their specs. I hope to never prove that.

One that's been around for a long time but maybe someone hasn't seen it.
barge tug crash - YouTube