Wire options, tinned or stranded

My boat just passed survey with all new copper wire, not tinned.

Yes the wire was scrutinized by the surveyor closely and found lacking nowhere.

CPseudonym said:

My boat just passed survey with all new copper wire, not tinned.

Yes the wire was scrutinized by the surveyor closely and found lacking nowhere.

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I'm sure you got preferential treatment because you're a mod.

I have the ratchet crimpers, but prefer the dimple crimp that is made by the non-insulated part of my pliers.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Can anyone quote chapter and verse (AYBC or USCG) which states tinned wire is a requirement please?.............

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Just because something is not a requirement doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

I use tinned marine rated wire and cable because I want to do a first class job, a job that won't have to be done over at some point. Some folks are satisfied with less than a first class job and if they are happy, that's fine.

Usually, the difference in cost between using the "right" materials and something that will "get by" is pretty insignificant, especially when you consider the time involved in doing the work.

Greetings,
Mr. jeffnick. Fair enough. If it works for you, great. You are obviously much more proficient with the dimple crimpers than I am. The same can't be said for the PO's of vessels I have had in the past. I feel I get more consistent crimps with the ratchet type and I find the ratchet type easier to use so it's each to his own.

Greetings,
Mr. rwidman. Never said it wasn't a good idea just said it wasn't necessary. If one does a half assed job of termination it's still a half assed job, tinned or non-tinned wire. If Mr. swampu can purchase tinned wire cheaper than non tinned, bonus for him although I still feel a first class job with either type of wire will provide the same safety and service life.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. jeffnick. Fair enough. If it works for you, great. You are obviously much more proficient with the dimple crimpers than I am. The same can't be said for the PO's of vessels I have had in the past. I feel I get more consistent crimps with the ratchet type and I find the ratchet type easier to use so it's each to his own.

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I was an electronic technician by trade for more than 20 years and I carried the simple stripper/crimper shown in Jeff's photo above. I even wore out a few. Just as with any tool, skill has a lot to do with the final results.

swampu said:

Hello gents and ladies, I am getting close to rewiring the whole vessel. Tinned wire will cost a fortune and the non tinned stranded wire will be a much more affordable option. The boat had romex and old cotton wrapped wire before. I know a lot of responses will say to hire a marine electrician but I have no plan on doing that. All the wiring will be accessible and anything in a wall will be in a conduit. Now, has anyone rewired a boat using the non tinned stranded wire? Thanks Paul

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marine grade tinned wire is far superior to other wire in a marine environment. There is a reason for the marine spec in regards to wireing

Greetings,
Mr. rwidman EXACTLY!! Mr. 45. There IS no requirement for tinned wire. If there is, please quote source. Re-read this thread again.

bfloyd4445 said:

marine grade tinned wire is far superior to other wire in a marine environment. There is a reason for the marine spec in regards to wireing

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Yep... For greater profit for wire companies and to take advantage of uninformed boaters.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. rwidman EXACTLY!! Mr. 45. There IS no requirement for tinned wire. If there is, please quote source. Re-read this thread again.

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you may be right. I do know that marine specd wire i currently have which was purchased before 1990 it was tinned. if my memory serves me the original marine spec for wire does say that tinned wire is condusive to a better electrical connection. I think it may have morphed over time into a spec regarding the composition of wire so as to retard corrosion. But, the fact is that marine grade wire is different than cut rate contractor grade house wire and its speced that way for a good reason.
Yes you can buy cut rate medicines from who knows were but do you really want to when your life may depend upon them?

bfloyd4445 said:

you may be right. I do know that marine specd wire i currently have which was purchased before 1990 it was tinned. if my memory serves me the original marine spec for wire does say that tinned wire is condusive to a better electrical connection. I think it may have morphed over time into a spec regarding the composition of wire so as to retard corrosion. But, the fact is that marine grade wire is different than cut rate contractor grade house wire and its speced that way for a good reason.
Yes you can buy cut rate medicines from who knows were but do you really want to when your life may depend upon them?

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Let's see...MANY doctors spec "generic" brand drugs because they either are EXACTLY the same as the name brand or ACT exactly the same once injested....plenty of name brand medicines have killed/injured people too.

And your life doesn't depend on tinned or non-tinned wire...it depends on a good wiring job whichever wire is used...as well as proper PM and a decent skipper for a lot of reasons...

A lot of people talk about quality and safety but don't have the on the water experience to really back it up.

Good wiring work workmanship and good planning with whatever wire is used will win my trust over just tinned copper 'marine grade' every time. There is a lot of wire in the world that isn't either 'marine grape' or 'Home Cheapo cut rate contractor grade' which incidentally is perfectly suited to its intended purpose. MTW wire or machine tool wire is available tinned. It is intended for use in machine tool conditions which include constant movement, chemical resistance to coolants, solvents, lubricants, heat, abrasion etc. that simply don't exist on the average glorified housboat. The insulation is better than 'marine grade' too. Chances are if you shop, since it doesn't say 'marine' you can find better wire for less money. The perception that nothing but 'marine grade is acceptable' keeps West Marine in business, but I find it hard to believe people think that anything but a 'marine grade' hose clamp (from another thread) is inferior to a industrial grade all 316 stainless steel non perforated clamp that meets a mil spec.

Greetings,
Well said Mr. Capt Craig....

Best type-o ever: marine grape

GONZO! you ARE a careful reader. I'm not. I don't know if I should be honored or embarrassed, Honored feels better, Thank You.

Craig

Honored.

Marine grape reminds me of cabernet in the cockpit.

Greetings,
Pinot Grigiot on the poop deck? Bourbon in the bilge? Say are you using the same spell checker as P/F?

Heck, we may have found a topic that ranks right up there with single or twins, 2/10/30 micron filters, etc.!

Just for reference, this is how Ancor describes their wire:

ANCOR Marine Grade™ wire is manufactured from tinned copper stranding for maximum protection against corrosion and electrolysis. Ultra flexible (Type 3) stranding resists fatigue due to ibration and flexing.
ANCOR's proprietary premium vinyl insulation stays flexible even in extreme cold and resists salt water, battery acid, oil, gasoline and ultra-violet radiation. Exclusive insulation is rated at 600 volts, 105° C dry and 75° C wet, and is resistant to
Exceeds all UL 1426, US Coast Guard Charterboat (CFR Title 46) and ABYC standards.
ANCOR supplies a full line of Marine Grade™ primary (single conductor) wire in sizes from 18 AWG to 10 AWG, all in ABYC recommended colors, and in standard lengths from 8 foot mini-spools to 1,000 foot bulk spools.

Ancor was the first company to push tinned wire to the marine trade. I think it was in the early eighties. Up until then, all wire on boats was plain copper. It didn't take long for tinned wire to dominate the marine trade and now it's hard to find plain copper marine grade wire.

CPseudonym said:

Honored.

Marine grape reminds me of cabernet in the cockpit.

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Like any "Marine" listed item, its Just another reason to charge on top of the original prices cause they are specially grown marine grade grapes lolololol. :-D

"And your life doesn't depend on tinned or non-tinned wire...it depends on a good wiring job whichever wire is used..."

However while owning the boat having to never go back and revisit old work is a delight.

The biggest difference to most owners will be at "sell the boat time".

A really fine wiring job with marine components shows the customer that care and thought was used throughout the boat .

This can lower the time to sell the boat and will surely return those $30-$50 bucks spent in marine components instead of house romex.

"PAINT SELLS DA BOAT" is surely true , but the difference between eye candy and common , nothing special ,is usually a worthwhile expense.

I even installed "marine " switches , circuit breakers , and tinned wiring and terminals in my Motor Home , to sleep better at night. Corrosion happens in MH too.

Actually...at least during the late 90 and early 2000's...marine and aircraft circuit breakers were found vastly inferior to the common house circuit breaker...based on my observations...I think they still are.

I have had boat CBs allow wire to get to the smoking point without tripping...I even had one on a lighter receptacle CB refuse to pop when dead shorted just a couple years ago.

They look pretty but I don't trust them with my life that much. I'm going back to fuses for 90 percent of my circuits...pretty much Anything that has it's own on/off will be fused rather than a CB.

I know this because in my job we had to investigate 2 in flight fires aboard USCG aircraft and MANY studies came out with NTSB and FAA about CB reliability.

Well thought out, accessible wiring is what makes old wok a pleasure....if I have to pull a new wire or rearrange, it isn't the tinning that makes it nice...only if I have to replace a crimp. Plus like I said any posts ago...many times it's not only the wiring (if untinned)...it's whatever "system" that was installed that didn't have tinned wire at the junction...That's why I have gone to terminal block about everywhere so I only have to cut back on one side not 2.

While not "required" I think not using tinned wire is an unnecessary short cut, especially if the cable is in a bilge or relatively exposed to the elements. Stuff that can burn your boat up or cause it to stop functioning correctly just isn't the place to economize. That aside, unless you are never going to have the boat surveyed ever again and are self insured and just really don't care, you should at least use stuff labeled Boat Cable with the UL 1426 label. Personally I can't understand why anyone wouldn't use the best solution in such a critical component when the price delta is almost insignificant in the larger picture.

As others have said, if you have the best cable and connectors in the right size and don't install them properly, it's all for naught.

I've had no problems whatsoever with using the proper sized and type Blue Seas circuit breakers and we've used a lot of them for the inverter panels, shore power, and windlass, and use them year around and heavily.

Well, I'm glad we got this settled once and for all!

psneeld said:

Let's see...MANY doctors spec "generic" brand drugs because they either are EXACTLY the same as the name brand or ACT exactly the same once injested....plenty of name brand medicines have killed/injured people too.

And your life doesn't depend on tinned or non-tinned wire...it depends on a good wiring job whichever wire is used...as well as proper PM and a decent skipper for a lot of reasons...

A lot of people talk about quality and safety but don't have the on the water experience to really back it up.

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...I don't do generic medicine I want to know exactly were the chemicals i put into my body come from.

yes, but I don't believe in compromising quality. You can if you wish but whats the point in hiring the finest marine electrician in the world and then give him cut rate joe's materials to work with? Doesn't it make more sense to hire the best you can and then provide him/her with the finest materials available? [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Sir, I'm sure you will agree that when you are out on the ocean your life could very well depend upon your vessels electrical. Since a vessels electrical system could be the difference between life and death all repairs should be done to the highest standards possible with only the best quality materials used. Dead in the water is not the same as breaking down on the interstate were the worst that may happen is your AuLattee may get cold.
Marine spec wire is formulated to be more corrosion resistant than wire used for general construction.
Your absolutely correct about the quality of workmanship. I must have repaired hundreds of owner modified boats in my younger days only because the owners had modified them using automotive or other off the shelf cheap connectors or wire. Quality of workmanship is number ! in importance.
Oh, marine spec wire is both tinned and un tinnedhttp://www.boat-cable.com/types.htm

I think next in importance is the use of the proper termination devices and the use of shrink tubing to prevent corrosion.
I always took pride in doing a job to the absolute highest standard that i was capable of and took full advantage of any component that would enhance the quality of my workmanship which always included marine spec wire and terminals.[/FONT]

oh never mind...hate being drug down to your level and beat up....

Britt... It's thinking like that which continues to make boating more expensive for all of us. Still, think about this for a second... If you use the correct connections and shrink it right, then moisture won't get in. Then please explain to me why you need to spend all that extra money on tinned wire?

psneeld said:

oh never mind...hate being drug down to your level and beat up....

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chuckle, me level.........geez, thanks, been accused of being tilted, astray, out of touch, etc. but can't recall level. Like in level headed? Or on level like on an even keel?....hummm....
But the fact is I don't intentionaly beat up on anyone. If you ever get that impression I assure you that wasn't my attention and i apolojize for doing so........

Maybe I should elaborate on what and where and why. I love the blanket comments on the best and no other. Where does it stop, the best today will be second best next year. The bilge will always be tinned wire, I've got tons of wiring to do in the cabin (wall area) specifically. I am guessing from some of your comments that non-tinned wire will explode in the wall and burn the boat down. I am not going to use romex or solid copper wire. I was asking if non tinned stranded wire would be an option and if anyone else has done that. My ac unit on the top side is a regular house pac unit and not marinized at all, should I cut it off and toss it because it's not the best? I am replacing all the windows with safety glass because I place that higher on the "to do list" I don't want to end up with a p.o.s. boat but I would like to use it one day and I am not going to skimp on everything.
While I am getting kicked around here are some more skimps I plan on:
1. Florescent lights in the bilge will be el' cheepo with plastic covers. (for now just to get rid of the string lights)
2. Pex for the water lines?
3. Copper line for the fuel (flared fittings)
4. Cheep used (400lb) ice maker on the roof.