Boating and fuel cost

Excellent.

Thanks for the quote and the pissy attitude. I'll try to remember that you're always right and that no one dare question your wisdom.

Ken

You can question my statements all you like, just don't be "pissy" and argumentative about it or*you will either get no response or*a curt and to the point response like the last one. Like I said, if*all you want is to start an argument go someplace else, this thread is interesting and people are sharing*information. We don't need your BS.*

Rick B ,
I've been at sea for over 40 years deep sea ,coastal FSO's and FPSO's Superintendant Engineer and Chief Engineer for the last 25 years.
I have sailed with the Poms, Dutch and the Aussies and your attitude would last about 10 mins with any of them. You would most likely be stretchered off.

Why don't you attempt to be more understanding and thoughtfull with the way you spread your knowledge, being an arogant smart arse gets you no where.

This is a great forum and a lot of knowledge and bull**** is spread around and everyone is smart enough to sort one from another and enjoy doing it.
Benn

This is only a single example from a specific engine so I can't say it's representative of what happens in all engines. But in the early '80s I had occasion to remove the oil pan from the engine in my Land Rover for the first time since buying the vehicle new in 1973. At the time it had about 100,000 miles on it.

The Rover 2.25 litre, four-cylinder*engine is very similar in design philosophy to most of the engines (Perkins, Ford of England, etc.) from the '50s and '60s, having been designed originally by Rover in the late 1950s*as a diesel. Not wanting to run two engine manufacturing lines, Rover later made the necessary alterations to build the same engine as a petrol engine so the same assembly line could produce both diesel and petrol engines for the Land Rover. Mine is petrol.

The sump capacity is eight quarts. It has a typical gear-type oil pump. I have no idea what the pumping capacity of this pump is. Since new, I have always used Castrol GTX 20-50 oil in the engine, and change it and the filter every 3,000 miles.

When I drained the oil and removed the pan it was clean as a whistle inside with the exception of the little depression immediately behind the drain plug, which had some residue in it. But there was no sludge buildup in the corners or in the lowest part of the pan.

Perhaps this would have been different if I had the diesel version of the same engine as I understand that the lube oil in a diesel is contaminated more by the byproducts of combustion than the lube oil in a petrol engine. But I had expected to find some sluge, varnish, or buildup on the bottom of the sump pan and I was quite surprised not to find any after some ten years.

-- Edited by Marin at 22:52, 2009-02-14

Benn, I share your background and I appreciate your comments but if you have been following this thread you will know that this was an informative and polite*discussion until it was assaulted by the chap who is now crying foul, as he has done in the past.

And based on my own experience with merchant mariners, it wouldn't be me who found himself hauled off the boat. We don't give much slack to those who stick their nose in for no other reason than to start an argument.

I am very happy to be polite and share information about subjects in which I have some knowledge but have*zero patience with fools like the one who interjected his argumentative BS in this one. Perhaps your comments should be directed to the provocateur.

-- Edited by RickB at 23:27, 2009-02-14

Marin,

There is a design "rule of thumb" for diesel engines with oil cooled pistons*to determine the capacity of the lube oil pump. It is (and this is from memory so don't join the pack of jackals if*I am off a bit) based on a constant of .0035 X the diplacement x rpm X 2. If you run that rule for the 6-71 it works out to be around 25 gallons per minute which isn't too far off the factory spec of 28 gpm.

In any event, there is enough circulation and turbulence in the oil pan to keep things stirred up pretty well. Modern oils do a fantastic job of keeping things clean internally as long as oil is filtered and changed regularly.

I second Sunchaser's statement that for 99.999 percent of us a regular draining of warm oil is adequate.

What does "oil cooled pistons" mean? Is this why diesels like the FL120, and the engine in my Land Rover (originally desiged as a diesel) have such high lube oil sump capacities?

It means that the crank and rods have a port that aligns for a short time allowing a squirt of oil to sprat the underside of the piston crown.

OR a dedicated port that squirts lube oil full time at the piston bottom.

This helps lower the piston temp , transferring some heat to the oil , where it is cooled.

RckB wrote: "Benn, I share your background and I appreciate your comments but if you have been following this thread you will know that this was an informative and polite discussion until it was assaulted by the chap who is now crying foul, as he has done in the past.

And based on my own experience with merchant mariners, it wouldn't be me who found himself hauled off the boat. We don't give much slack to those who stick their nose in for no other reason than to start an argument."


So who stuck whose nose where? The thread started on Nov 17, I posted the third comment. You were nowhere to be heard. The thread stopped on Dec 3 with no posts from RickB in the entire thread. I restarted the thread 4 days ago. YOU STUCK YOUR NOSE IN to tell us all how it worked. What the hell, you accuse me of sticking my nose in? What're you, daft?

Where would the argument be if you hadn't stuck your nose in, I wouldn't have anyone to argue with would I? If you don't like my style stay out of the threads that I was in first.

Ken

*** For many years I have changed oil in boats and cars only changing the filter every 3rd time. I reason that the large volume of a typical full flow oil filter could'nt possibly come close to plugging in that period of time, keeping in mind that I change more often than usual. When I do the two changes that leave the filter unchanged I'm always suprised to see the oil looks totally like new oil to me. I would think that the old black oil in the filter would make it's presence visible. I would like very much to hear FFs and Ricks comments but hopefully from numerous others as well. An unfortunate problem occurs when several individuals offer posts loaded with facts ( or appearent facts ), much skill in articulating ideas and/or very interesting or plausable opnions, so much so that almost all the rest of us feel** ..* "how could I follow that act" or "he knows so much*that I couldn't possibly have anything to add" or " If I post I'll just advertise to everyone*how stupid I am". I think it's a shame that we can't find a way to involve a much higher percentage of us in the conversations.* I remember when I asked about showering soap I was amazed with about a dozen quick responses. I tend to think it's the high tech stuff that kills participation.*When I first joined this site I commented to someone " It's wonderful"* ..* "they go on a weekend outings and post pictures for all of* us, all over the nation and beyond to enjoy and see what boating in far off places is like"* ... for some reason that seem to have faded away.

*** Eric Henning

"...keeping in mind that I change more often than usual."

I think that is the secret to your success with the filters. Is it a better way to do it? It depends on the price of filters vs the price of oil. Like many engineering choices, it's a matter of cost effectiveness.

Technically, your early oil changes assure you of not reaching the limit of the additive's ability to retain "insolubles" in suspension and the filters may be oversized for the load you place on them.

Please, please do not be afraid*to pose a situation or ask a question. I have never ridiculed anyone for asking an honest question. I can assure you that no matter how simple*a question may seem after it is answered, it was important to the person who*asked it. I don't believe that I have ever confused a legitimate question with the sort of cheap shot recently illustrated here and I don't ridicule anyone who has a sincere interest in the dialog. Most of us probably asked the same question at some time, we aren't born with this stuff ...

Marin,

FF pretty much nailed the piston cooling.

There are several reasons a large sump is used. One is to allow the engine to operate at extreme angles, the other is to provide for a large oil supply to aid in heat removal, and to permit longer running periods between oil changes. The engine adds X amount of contaminants and consumes*Y amount of additives per running hour so a*small oil*volume is*loaded/depleted faster than a large volume.*

In my business, mining, it is common to send oil filters off for metals analysis. Amazing the amount of solid stuff that shows up in each change - mind you that is maybe 200 to 500 hours/filter change in a few weeks for heavy use. An interesting exercise is to cut your oil filter element apart after use and examine it - wash crud off with diesel. After doing this I believe you'd convince ourself to follow manufacturers specs - at least during the warranty period. After that period you can assess saving your 20 bucks per year on oil filters.

Thanks FF and RickB for your explanations. The original Series I, II, IIa, and III Land Rovers (I don't know about the new-fangled, shiny ones) were rated for a 45 degree slope going up or down and a 30-degree sidehill. So I can see where having a high sump capacity would be important to prevent oil starvation of the pump.

I suppose the same could be said for the Ford Dorset engine (the base engine for the Ford Lehman 120) as its original use in highway vehicles and later agricultural equipment like tractors and combines would have put the engines at some pretty high angles.* I assume the 12-quart capacity*sump pan*on an FL120 is the same pan Ford installed on the engine--- most of the marinization parts created by Lehman Bros. have their name stamped on them.


-- Edited by Marin at 19:56, 2009-02-15

There IS a downside to a huge sump, it takes longer to fully warm the oil.

Seldom a problem for boaters as our use cycle is usually long, hours not min.

In piston aircraft where a huge oil supply is required (50 -150G) , and it may be cool at altitude the solution is a dry sump, and an oil hopper .
This is an open tank (think a large pipe with holes in it) for the supply and return , and the surrounding oil is there as needed.

FF

"... it takes longer to fully warm the oil."

Which isn't all that bad, cool oil is good. So long as the pressure remains in limits nothing will be harmed. If it stays within limits it means the pressure relief valve is working and there is flow.

Larger engines also use a dry sump and control oil temperture*with a vernatherm type device. Temperature limiting is the*objective for a marine engine, with proper viscosity an added benefit.

Do you remember oil dilution switches?

Vinny
Well put.
You have my 5 cents too, so we're up to a dime!

RickB wrote:
Do you remember oil dilution switches?

Click to expand...

Yes, the Beaver I fly has one.* But in this climate (PNW) it is never used.

I used to drive a C-45 in Montana and used them all the time in Winter. Park a few hours at -30 and restarts could be tricky without a long preheat that wasn't always available.

Do you remember oil dilution switches?

Thank GOD for "Plane Captains" (enlisted flight crew) that would go out hours before the TO and burn off the diluted oil.

When there is a 75G lube oil tank, its a while.

FF

No idea what y'all are talking about. Just hit the starter and wait til 25% N1 add a little fuel....and poof....starts everytime!!!!....

Just hit the starter and wait til 25% N1 add a little fuel....and poof....starts everytime!!!!..

Not on a 3350 in Iceland !!

Rick,

1st of all I have never had any fear of asking questions.
I think the main reason I do my every 3rd filter thing is that it is so easy to do. It only takes a few minutes to change oil when you don't have to mess with the filter. Just pump or drain the oil out and pour the new in. Many or most of our trawlers have a hand pump so we can pump it out when it's hot as long as we don't spill it and put it in later. Very good idea to put a " no oil " tag on the throttle or starter key. I'm not the least bit over concerned about the cost of filters.
One thing about the high volume oil pumps you guys haven't mentioned yet is the power it takes to drive them. I had a much smaller oil pump put in my BW gear to reduce the power loss. It takes 5hp to drive that pump. The BW is used on 2-300hp engines and with my 37hp .. just didn't need the high output pump. All the accessories on an engine take a suprising amount of power to run.

Vinny,

Once in a while I look at the over the deep end rant page but almost always I just look at the topics and notice it's the same old stuff and go elsewhere. I don't think we need a rant page at all. It dosn't do ANYBODY any good. On the other hand if we don't dive in there to vent and rage what harm does it do?
1. It turns people off that drop in browsing around. We have probably lost members because of it.
2. As you point out the rage brobably spills out onto other threads.
3. Wether we like it or not the ODE thread alters who we are. If the ODE was 5% of our site .. I see no problem. But it's not .. its maybe 35-40%. What if it were 80%? Would we be a boating fourm? I think not, and any activity whithin the site thats not trawler boating related errodes our standing as a boating site.
Is there anybody here that thinks ODE has value?
I think we all know how threads wander all over the place so there could be a lot of conversion about a topic I'm very interested in so if I didn't browse I'd miss out and without the ODE the conversion would'nt take place. This is the only positive thing I see in ODE.
Yeah Vinny, I'd say nobody owns the posts. You can have this one! No, I guess not since nobody owns it so I can't give iy away. Seriously, I would like to see many more people talking on this site.

Eric Henning

" ... poof....starts everytime!!!!"

Sounds like a bunch of hot air to me ...

FF,

*** What in God's green earth is " 25% N1 "

Eric Henning

nomadwilly wrote:

FF,

*** What in God's green earth is " 25% N1 "

Eric Henning

Click to expand...

Oh, you're not gonna like this, Eric...... It's aviation stuff.* A typical fanjet engine has two or three independently*rotating shafts, depending on the manufacturer.* The shafts hold the fan blades, compressor blades, turbine blades and so on.* The shafts do not all turn at the same speed when the engine is running.

I don't know how the nomenclature got started, but the shafts are referred to by an "N" number.* So the shaft that has the fan blades on it it might be "N1", the shaft with the compressor blades might be "N2" and so on (I don't remember which shaft is which right now).

Turbofan engine shafts turn REALLY fast.* So the rpm of each shaft*is expressed as a percentage of maximum (I think) rpm rather than an actual rpm number.

When a turbofan is started, compressed air (usually) is used to get the shafts turning which starts the airflow through the entire*engine.* (On smaller turbine engines like Otters, helicopters, etc the starter is electric.)*When the airflow reaches a certain volume, the fuel is turned on and the engine "ignites."* The proper point at which the fuel is turned on is expressed as a percentage of the maximum (?)*rpm of one of the shafts, the*N1 shaft*in this case.*

So when John starts an engine on his 767 or 757, he watches the "rpm" or N1*gauge for that particular engine, which is calibrated in percent (of maximum?) rpm.* When the starter has accelerated the N1 shaft to 25%, he flips the fuel feed switch to the engine.

Most if not all jet engines have igniters, sort of like spark plugs, that fire during the startup phase.* This gets the fuel burning, but as the combustion chamber heats up the igniters are no longer necessary so they are switched off.

The next time you are near a turbine-powered floatplane in SE Alaska (or a jet helicopter) listen to it as it starts.* You will hear a "click-click-click" coming from the engine as it begins to turn on the starter.* This is*the igniter firing. When the pilot sees the N1 gauge reach the required percent he will flip the fuel switch and you'll hear the "whooshing roar" I'm sure you're familiar with which is the fuel igniting and the engine starting to run on its own.

I'm pretty sure I've explained this right but if not perhaps John will correct me.* And sorry, Eric, for yet another post on aviation stuff.



-- Edited by Marin at 20:04, 2009-02-17

I actually mistyped. It would be N2(767 GE enbines) or N3(757 Rolls Royce engines). N1 is the slowest turning at start....has the most rotational mass.

" only positive thing I see in ODE."



Look at the long times between actual boating posts, days or more at times.

ODE keeps folks amused during the dead times.


Most of the folks on this board have the ability to walk up stairs AND chew gum,

so the hate you see everywhere does not transfer from ODE to actual marine topics very often.

*** Thanks Marin,

*** I am not entertained by ODE, 25% N1 or any other of FFs giberish. I get the feeling he is smothering us with unintelligble BS to gain the status of talking over our heads to make himself appear knowledgeable* .. and I'm definitely NOT entertained by that.

*** Eric Henning

" I am not entertained by ODE, 25% "

Simple self restraint , and you never need read or learn there.