Composite Propane Tank

Yup - pretty much RT. Good comment.

Larry H said:

I
The fiberglass tanks are better in a fire, as they are not subject to exploding like a grenade as a steel tank can.

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Why? What do they do instead?

Anode said:

Say what? You might want to re-think that.

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Anode

I do not understand this comment?

I do this to check the level of fuel in a bottle of compresed gas.

Re think that why ?

SaucySailoress said:

Why? What do they do instead?

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Older tanks with older style valves do not release the fuel when under extreme preasure. They wil grenade when heated to extreme. Its a huge bang !

However here in BC tanks must be inspected and the valve replaced every ten years to be filled. Tanks with old style valves can not be re filled here in BC by any retail outlet.

Compliant tanks using these valves will vent when preasure in the tank is too high. With these valves they no longer grenade if over heated and or over filled. They turn into a torch instead.

Composit tanks fall under these regs and that makes them a bit expensive past that ten year's date with inspection and re valve. Here in BC any way.

SaucySailoress said:

Why? What do they do instead?

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Google 'composite propane tank fire safety'

A steel tank in a fire can vent thru the valve's blowoff safety vent, split a seam and spill propane, or explode like a grenade, with shrapnel everywhere.

The propane burns off when vented. This is the best outcome, with the explosion the worst.

A composite tank burns thru, releasing the propane which burns without any explosion.

I have a correction to make to my previous post. I found a qualified salesman at the Sure Marine booth at the Seattle Boat Show who explained the situation.

Composite tanks must be recertified after 5 years (USA rule). It's aluminum tanks that are good for 12 years.

After a tank has had propane in it, it can no longer be shipped by UPS, etc. To get a tank re-certified, there has to be a nearby company that can do the work.

After considering all this, a steel tank could be the cheapest way to go. Pay $30-$40, use till its too rusty or out of date, and buy a new one. Re-certifying a composite tank which originally cost $100+, could cost $45 (Seattle price) after 5 years.

An aluminum tank is an option as it is good for 12 years, no re-certification needed.

OFB said:

Anode

I do not understand this comment?

I do this to check the level of fuel in a bottle of compresed gas.

Re think that why ?

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Sorry if my cryptic comment sounded smart ass but I work with propane for a propane company almost daily in the winter. It's one of my off-season retirement hobby jobs.
Unless you are releasing (using) vapor and decreasing tank pressure at extreme amounts your tank, the liquid and vapor inside will be the same or close to ambient temperature.
A static stored tank will be at ambient.
I agree that tanks will frost if you're releasing vapor at a rate that exceeds their design as propane boils at -41F but a static tank no.
If your tanks are frosting up during your normal usage you should consider a larger tank.
There are those that use hot water in a spray bottle to check liquid levels in tanks as the evaporation rates on the outside of the tank will be different from liquid to vapor. If you want to stand there long enough you can see the liquid level.
The industry excepted method is by weight and that's why the containers are stamped with tare weight.
What are the conditions that you are able to spray water on a propane bottle and get it to freeze?

Anode

All I am doing and recieving is the level the liquid propane is at, in the tank by spraying water onto the tank body. I am not using the technique to re fill a tank. To re fill a tank use the stamped wieght for that tank.

But thats how I , test the propane tanks on the boat and the 120 litre tanks hanging off the side of my commercial trucks.

I have yet to find or see an acurate tank guage for a propane system tank. But there just might be one out there somewhere. But the spray bottle is quick and dont lie.

In the trucks if you run outa fuel you get a tow as its not legal to fill or top off road side. Unlike gasoline. As an example.

Okay, please clarify. You spray water on the outside of the propane tanks on your boat and the spray freezes on the outside of the tank to the level of the liquid? When the ambient temp is above freezing?
They do make magnetic gauges that are on most road vehicle tanks here but they are not always trustworthy.

Sorry Anode I am trying to be way too quick with this.

Yes I spray the outside of the tank, but even a wet rag will work.

No it will not always freeze at the level but the water vapor from the spray hangs around on the tank where the level of liquid propane is even if will not freeze.

Could be a wet coast thing dont know but give it a try.

Also just a quick note. Propane bottles are not filled to the top. Its like 80 % when full.

And another note. From time to time I see the regular 10 and or 20 lb propane bottle used on boats and RVs laid on there side. Folk replace bottles valved to be on there side with regular bottles placed on there side. Not a good thing. The tank "stand" is important for correct use. Uniflite used that set up in the fatcory install and can be replaced with stand up tanks laid on the side. Just an example and an FYI

Greetings,
Stand up tanks on their sides? I agree NOT a good thing. "Uniflite used that set up in the fatcory install and can be replaced with stand up tanks laid on the side." Don't understand Mr. OFB. That reads like it's OK to use stand up tanks on their side which it's not. Please clarify.

Larry H said:

I...........After considering all this, a steel tank could be the cheapest way to go. Pay $30-$40, use till its too rusty or out of date, and buy a new one. .............

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Or exchange it at the local supermarket, gas station, or home center. Let them paint/recertify the tank.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Stand up tanks on their sides? I agree NOT a good thing. "Uniflite used that set up in the fatcory install and can be replaced with stand up tanks laid on the side." Don't understand Mr. OFB. That reads like it's OK to use stand up tanks on their side which it's not. Please clarify.

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The tank "stand" is important for correct use. By stand I mean the ring or feet that are welded to the tank that suggest how it should be mounted.

RT sorry to confuse. But I mean its easy to place a standard tank into the location uniflite intended for a side mount tank too go. Using a standard uprite tank in this location that was intended for a side mount can be an issue.

I used uniflite as an example but I do see this on bridge mounts ( under the eye brow ) of trawlers and such.

As tank design and regs changed being cheap ass boaters makes for some interesting choices. Instead of a new valve on an exsisting tank the home depot job looks the same smells the same so must be the same even if its 1/2 the cost.

But it might not be quite the same.

Sorry to confuse, my bad. Its a TC thing.

OFB said:

Sorry Anode I am trying to be way too quick with this.

Yes I spray the outside of the tank, but even a wet rag will work.

No it will not always freeze at the level but the water vapor from the spray hangs around on the tank where the level of liquid propane is even if will not freeze.

Could be a wet coast thing dont know but give it a try.

Also just a quick note. Propane bottles are not filled to the top. Its like 80 % when full.

And another note. From time to time I see the regular 10 and or 20 lb propane bottle used on boats and RVs laid on there side. Folk replace bottles valved to be on there side with regular bottles placed on there side. Not a good thing. The tank "stand" is important for correct use. Uniflite used that set up in the fatcory install and can be replaced with stand up tanks laid on the side. Just an example and an FYI

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Okay, we're getting closer to being on the same wavelength. I'm familiar with the condensation 'marks' on tanks when conditions are correct. But freezing no. Sounds like you've got a simple solution that works for you.
Yes, 80% is the correct fill level for above ground tanks. You probably know there's a slotted screw on the base of the tank valve that's a 80% bleeder valve screw. Loosen the screw and vapor will come out until the tank is 80% full then liquid comes out. The new opd valves are designed to close at the 80% level also.
There are some older horizontal vapor tanks (vapor comes out the valve) out there that are designed to be on their side. I believe Marin has them on his GB. They are acceptable and exempt from the opd law as he has stated on the TF before. Most horizontal tanks are liquid tanks (liquid comes out the valve) designed for fork lifts, floor buffers etc. which requires an external vaporizer.
All propane tanks have relief valves somewhere that must not be covered in the liquid. Only vapor. Relief valves will release if pressures are exceeded (think fire) to prevent tanks from exploding. Vertical tanks have the relief valve in the valve stem. Horizontal tanks have relief valves designed to be orientated to the upper side in the vapor so even though you can lay them down the relief valve must be up.
If you have a question about your propane tank take it a propane dealer and ask. I'm sure they will be glad to help.

Anode

Great responce that realy helps clear up my poorly written words. I hope any way.

Thanks


Quote

"You probably know there's a slotted screw on the base of the tank valve that's a 80% bleeder valve screw. Loosen the screw and vapor will come out until the tank is 80% full then liquid comes out. "

Yes here we call them spit valves.

Purpose-built horizontal tanks do not need OPD valves although most of the new ones have them. But if you have a pre-OPD horizontal tank--- which means it had to be made as a horizontal tank, not a vertical tank with homemade feet on it--- it can be refilled anywhere.

I do not believe our two horizontal tanks are vapor tanks. They are filled in the vertical position just like any other tank and the slotted "spit" valve is used to determine level just like the standard vertical BBQ tanks we use at home. The only difference is our boat tanks are made to be mounted horizontally.

We have one non-OPD horizontal tank and one newer OPD horizontal tank. The non-OPD tank has a sticker on it (required) that states that the tank does not have an OPD, and we keep on the boat a copy of the waiver that states that non-OPD horizontal tanks are legal to refill.

We've never had a problem getting our non-OPD tank re-filled.

We also had our older--- and expensive--- 1.5 gallon, non-OPD vertical aluminum tank that we use with the BBQ on the flying bridge re-valved by a welding shop in Seattle that does this sort of thing. Twenty-five bucks got a new OPD valve installed and the tank re-certified.

Marin said:

Purpose-built horizontal tanks do not need OPD valves although most of the new ones have them. But if you have a pre-OPD horizontal tank--- which means it had to be made as a horizontal tank, not a vertical tank with homemade feet on it--- it can be refilled anywhere.

I do not believe our two horizontal tanks are vapor tanks. They are filled in the vertical position just like any other tank and the slotted "spit" valve is used to determine level just like the standard vertical BBQ tanks we use at home. The only difference is our boat tanks are made to be mounted horizontally.

We have one non-OPD horizontal tank and one newer OPD horizontal tank. The non-OPD tank has a sticker on it (required) that states that the tank does not have an OPD, and we keep on the boat a copy of the waiver that states that non-OPD horizontal tanks are legal to refill.

We've never had a problem getting our non-OPD tank re-filled.

We also had our older--- and expensive--- 1.5 gallon, non-OPD vertical aluminum tank that we use with the BBQ on the flying bridge re-valved by a welding shop in Seattle that does this sort of thing. Twenty-five bucks got a new OPD valve installed and the tank re-certified.

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Marin, the industry considers a tank "liquid or vapor" by what comes out the valve when it's opened with the tank is in it's correct/designed orientation-horizontal or vertical.

"Vapor tanks' are filled with liquid and the valve discharges the vapor for use. The liquid level stays below the valve(pickup tube) by design.

"Liquid tanks" discharge liquid as the discharge valve (pickup tube) stays below the level of the liquid.

Both "liquid and vapor" tanks can/are filled with/to the 80% spitter valve.

If your tanks are 'liquid tanks' then your propane system would require an external vaporizer in order to work with your stove/oven. You can't feed liquid propane to a boat stove.

Liquid tank systems are designed for high useage applications -think engines and commercial boiler/heaters-where the rapid release of vapor from tank would cause low pressure and freezing of components.

I know I'm only an amateur backyard boat builder (your description) so you might want to check over on the Grand Bankaccounts Forum or with a propane professional in your area. I'm sure you'll let me know if I'm wrong.

Liquid tank systems are designed for high useage applications -think engines and commercial boiler/heaters-where the rapid release of vapor from tank would cause low pressure and freezing of components.- Chip

The single tank hanging under my Motorhome has two pickups, 1 - for the galley stove, at the top (vapor) and 2 - for the genset and the furnace, at the bottom (liquid).

koliver said:

Liquid tank systems are designed for high useage applications -think engines and commercial boiler/heaters-where the rapid release of vapor from tank would cause low pressure and freezing of components.- Chip

The single tank hanging under my Motorhome has two pickups, 1 - for the galley stove, at the top (vapor) and 2 - for the genset and the furnace, at the bottom (liquid).

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Yep, there are lots of specialized storage tanks and applications for propane well beyond the 20# Blue Rhino bottle at 7/11. One size doesn't fit all.
With that in mind -- don't believe what you read on internet forums. Consult your propane dealer.

Anode said:

I'm sure you'll let me know if I'm wrong.

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I'm not saying you're wrong. It's just that you made it sound like we have some sort of unique tank in your earlier post. We don't. They are horizontal but the valve is on the end just like every other common-type propane tank. I once asked the guy at Suburban Propane what differentiated our horizontal tanks from the same shape Worthington upright tank and he said, "the feet." Otherwise, he said, they are identical.

Whether he's right or wrong I have no idea.

My understanding is that horizontal tanks, that supply vapor, have a pickup tube that terminates near the high point of the tank when it is horizontal. They are filled in a vertical position but must be used in a horizontal position. They are coming now with OPD valves to prevent overfiling.
If it didn't have a pickup tube at the high point, the tank would deliver liquid propane until it was half empty.

"This 20 lb aluminum horizontal propane tank holds roughly 4.7 gallons of propane. This is a great tank for marine use, it is light weight and is great for boats! This tank is to be used in its horizontal position only, yet filled in a vertical position. This tank is equipped with an OPD device in the fill valve."

Composite Propane Tanks

Suburban Propane has sent a directive to all its outlets not to refill composite propane tanks. I spent close to $200 for a new Viking tank and cannot get it filled.

It’s a long story that goes back to 2005. There is no recertification program for composite tanks. On top of that there were many non certified tanks released on the market. Distributors like Suburban could not identify the legal tanks from the illegal takes nor could they tell which tanks had not exceeded their approved life. Suburban chose the easy way out and refuses to fill composite tanks.

None of this is new news as Suburban and others made that decision back in 2010.

I like composite tanks, they are light, you can see the propane level and no corrosion. Unfortunately they are very difficult to get filled.

We bought a 10# composite tank 11 years ago, I've had it recertified twice now. Certification in Ontario consists of a visual inspection and is very inexpensive but does need to be done every 5 years. The second inspection last year was performed by a local dive shop that certifies the composite tanks fire fighters use. Inspection label epoxied onto the housing. Our tank has all the regular markings you would expect, tare weight, manufacture date etc. The only time I had a refusal to refill was when we were on the loop in Alabama and a local filling station wouldn't do it. have had lots of questions about it though.

I have 2 composite tanks that I like very much. Many retailers take the simplistic route that 99% of consumer propane tanks fall into 2 or 3 sizes. Everything else would require a brain cell to fill, so they don't.

True Value and Ace hardware stores seem to understand the concept of service. The couple I patronize will fill the tanks while I wait for a well below market price. The ones I use measure gallons they pump in the tank not a set price regardless or whether the tank is empty or not, what a concept.

Find a retailer that understands customer service, and patronize them.

Funny note, the 2 hardware stores I use, have Suburban Propane equipment.

Ted

I really wanted to go with composite cylinders. In the end I was concerned about getting them refilled and went with traditional steel. Getting cylinders refilled is a PITA in the first place especially if you're away from home (and your car). Didn't want to add to the frustration.

Like Ted, I look for propane stations that refill versus swap. Not just because you get an honest refill, but because they tend to be mom & pop businesses (or Ace/True Value franchise locations).

BTW - one of my favorite Pandemic discoveries was "Cynch" propane swap - leave your empty bottle in front of your garage and they deliver a full one. Granted, short-fill 15-lbs, but a good service.

Peter

rwidman said:

No need to worry about recertification on steel tanks (or missing paint, rust, etc.). Just exchange it. Let the company worry about certification.

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I've done that, taken an expired tank to the exchange place. They don't even look at the date, probably don't even know about it. They just give you a new(er) one. The expired and damaged ones get recycled.

jgwinks said:

I've done that, taken an expired tank to the exchange place. They don't even look at the date, probably don't even know about it. They just give you a new(er) one. The expired and damaged ones get recycled.

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They repaint rusty tanks and recertify if expired. If you look closely, some exchange tanks are pretty old with rust spots poking through the cheap paint job. All good until you exchange a tank you bought new for an old refurbished one. Functionally the same, but still.......

Peter

I passed on fiberglass tanks because I didn't want the hassle and unpredictability of refill.


But I did get aluminum tanks as somewhat of a compromise. They are lighter and they don't rust. That's the good side. But you are restricted to refills, not exchange.


Exchange is convenient, and more wide spread than refills, but I don't care for it either for the boat tanks, or home grill tanks. I don't like turning in my nice new tank and getting a junker that is about to expire, and I'm certainly not turning in my aluminum tank. So I always seek out refills. It's a bit of a hassle, but mitigated by the infrequent need to refill. With two tanks, it's not hard to refill an empty at your convenience, with little risk of running out the second tank. Our cooktop and grill are both gas, so we use what I expect is a pretty typical amount.

In places where they exist, at least some Tractor Supply locations fill propane. And the ones I've seen will happily fill any size tank, as they're filling by gallons instead of a flat fee.