Beauty, symmetry and personal perception

I know a lot about art, but I know what I like.

Marin I didn't know having a "six figure income" qualifies one to know beauty when they see it.

Marin wrote;

"But my discussion with Eric is not about art but has to do with his interpretation of beauty and his basic contention that beauty is not an emotional thing or a matter of opinion but is subject to rules and principles, and must be taught, like engineering, to be understood.

I maintain that this is not correct."

Firstly it's not my interpretation of beauty at all but my interpretation of who can recognize beauty when they see it. And secondly I've said all along one comes by the understanding of beauty from his/her genes/DNA as well as with extensive formal study. Why do you suppose they have art schools? Why study beauty if it's just a personal perception and not valid or invalid?

Last but not least if you don't think music is not art ......

OMG Murray something must be wrong .... now your'e "off the mark" too.

Hollywood would that be "fg pleasure boats? I know a bit about art but very little about acronyms.

alomaria,
We all know what we like, including Marin but liking has little to do w beauty. However most people will like what is really beautiful.

Marin actually said " Eric's an engineer and his world will always be numbers and formulas and rules and things you can teach and learn." Boy have I got you fooled Marin. I was an Industrial Education major (taught shop). But I tried to minor in music and did minor in art. So I have an engineering side but it may not be the strongest.

And this is why I switched majors from architecture to mechanical engineering. I was asked just one too many times, "What does this painting say to you?" As you may imagine my responses along the lines of, "It says the guy had a lot of yellow paint to get rid of." were not well received.

You either like it or you don't.

BaltimoreLurker said:

And this is why I switched majors from architecture to mechanical engineering. I was asked just one too many times, "What does this painting say to you?" As you may imagine my responses along the lines of, "It says the guy had a lot of yellow paint to get rid of." were not well received.

You either like it or you don't.

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I went the other way...when engineers/marine engineers in particular were being laid off in mass back in the mid-70s, I switched to landscape architecture where "design", "composition", "art", "beauty", "balance", "symmetry"... ad nauseum were crammed down your throat in every class and project.

Marin is very correct about one thing for sure...these threads sure can be a lot more entertaining than informative!

PS...yes, that guy did have too much yellow paint!!!

Marin said:

You try to equate everything to engineering with its rules and formulas. I personally find that a staggeringly limited, narrow minded, and unimaginative way to view the world. Sorry, but when it comes to emotional things, like what's beautiful and what's not, there aren't any rules and formulas. All there are are 7.06 billion (the world's population) subjective, emotional opinions about what constitutes beauty.

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I agree!
I've seen (and so have you) buildings that conform with all the engineering rules, etc. that I wouldn't hit a dog in the ass with. Beauty has nothing to do with conformity to accepted standards, rules and formulas.

Greetings,
Mr. MM. Renaissance graphic artists? Sure...Ullise Aldrovandi, Baccio Baldini, Giovanni Antonio Dosio...
Italian Renaissance Artist Listing: A-L
WM was designed with the idea that form follows function IMHO. Is it beautiful? To SOME eyes. I don't need ANY education to determine what I like. Art appreciation? Gimme a break. For instance, what is the artist trying to convey in THIS scenario and what rules is he/she following?


"Just because somebody is proficient at moving paint around on a flat surface, or coming up with pleasing compositions doesn't make them an artist." Apparently it DOES!
The Elephant Art Gallery – Are Elephant Paintings Art?

The lack of hobby horsing in this sea state is beauty to me.


Compared to a Nordhavn 43 in a smaller sea state.

manyboats said:

I personally think the ability to recognize beauty is about 75% learned and 25% innate. But one dosn't know beauty by just successfully passing through the womb.

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I think I know where you're coming from, Eric. What you are attempting to explain and pass on as the requirements for beauty are in fact the accepted rules (learned) for the use of engineering disciplines such as geometry, math, structural engineering. etc. Your definitions of what creates beauty, really apply more to structural design and efficiency. And with that, I would agree with you! Beauty, however, is outside those parameters and is a very subjective thing. In it's in the eye of the beholder, for which there are no rules or formulas. Many people consider the "Mona Lisa" to be beautiful. I am not one of those people.

Marin said:

Murray--- if you look at your avatar photo you will see--- if you have the ability to do so--- that in fact it is symmetrical in terms of its balance.
.

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Interesting comment and in the photographer's perception, absolutely correct! When you look at a photograph whos composition is extremely well done, it's balanced! Turn it 90 degrees to either side or even upside down and it's still balanced. That is indeed, a form of symmetry!

Walt wrote;

"many people consider the "Mona Lisa" to be beautiful."

I think you could have equally said "most" and there's a reason for that. The Mona Lisa is beautiful. The fact that so many people (artists incl) think it's beautiful could/may probably confirm that it is wether they are experts or not. One person saying it's beautiful means little or nothing especially if they have no art training. But in this case one may not be able to argue w millions.

If you select 100 pictures and paintings and present them to people w a great deal of art knowledge and experience and ask them which one of the 50 pairs is more beautiful .......... then ask a like number of basically artless people they will probably on average will give similar answers. This example is subject to personal likes and dislikes but should sort-of average out.

BUT the significant thing is that the artists would know what images were beautiful and could predict which would be chosen and the laypeople would be able to choose beauty more often than not. The artist's would know because they had good DNA and training and the laypeople would know "something" about it because of their DNA or intuitive capabilities.

So I think still the 75/25 rule (or something very similar) applies. That is that some "understanding" of beauty is w us at birth and more is learned w training and experience. Can't be any other way.

Walt then a 62' Nordhavn can't be beautiful because it's not balanced?

Here's a balanced boat. Is it beautiful?

Eric:

I've spent considerable time crawling around on a Nordhavn 62 and, no, I don't think it's beautiful. The boat in your photo, however, is good looking in my opinion but not beautiful.

This is an example of what I consider to be beautiful.

(And God forgive me for this next comment...) I think "Willy" is a beautiful little "cruiser!")

MurrayM said:

I think you are still missing the point though. This girl is following rules, in that she is interpreting music which was created by other people, and those other people were following the accepted "rules" which allow their music to be considered classical music.

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She plays other people's music and she composes her own. When she started playing at age four safe was not playing other people's music because she didn't know any. She was making up her own melodies based on what she was hearing in her head. And while the were certainly not symphonies her mother told me that as melodies, they "worked."

I'm thinking you need a hell of a lot more exposure to the world if you want to truly understand art and beauty.. It's fascinating.

hollywood8118 said:

But .. when it is all over and the dust settles...

The FPB boats are still ugly!


HOLLYWOOD

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Very funny but TRUE! (IMO)

manyboats said:

Marin I didn't know having a "six figure income" qualifies one to know beauty when they see it.

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And that is exactly what I thought you would write. It is the viewpoint of a numbers person, not a creative one.

You are exactly correct. Pay does not qualify anyone to be anything. It is a measurement of value and appreciation. Monet became a very wealthy person because of the appreciation his patrons had for his art. What he was paid did not make him a great artist, it was a measurement of how great he was.

The same is true of the graphic artists and photographers I work with. They are paid a hell of a lot of money because the company recognizes the value of what thy do, a value that is based on their creative, interpretive, and artistic talents.

It's amusing to read Murray allude that these guys are little more than " sign painters." What it tells me is that he has a minimal grasp on the real world of creating art, because if he did he would understand that what these guys do --- and I'm talking about their day jobs, not what they do on their own--- is every bit as creative and individualistic as what he is attempting to do.

The only difference is that a hell of a lot of people recognize the artistic talent our guys have so they pay them a hell of a lot of money to stay here and apply it on our behalf. And even though all of them came from a " struggling artist" life to start with, they stay here because their artistic talent and creative abilities are putting their kids through college and paying the mortgage. And, they love the challenge the job puts on their creative and artistic abilities.

Marin said:

I'm thinking you need a hell of a lot more exposure to the world if you want to truly understand art and beauty.

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Funny comment considering how limiting your definition of good art is, and yet another case of you "putting your foot in it" without any knowledge of what my life experience may be.

SeaHorse II said:

I think I know where you're coming from, Eric. What you are attempting to explain and pass on as the requirements for beauty are in fact the accepted rules (learned) for the use of engineering disciplines such as geometry, math, structural engineering. etc. Your definitions of what creates beauty, really apply more to structural design and efficiency. And with that, I would agree with you! Beauty, however, is outside those parameters and is a very subjective thing. In it's in the eye of the beholder, for which there are no rules or formulas. Many people consider the "Mona Lisa" to be beautiful. I am not one of those people.

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Walt, You said:

"What you are attempting to explain and pass on as the requirements for beauty are in fact the accepted rules (learned) for the use of engineering disciplines such as geometry, math, structural engineering. etc."

After reading this I thought of something. Lets relate to the little girl that Marin keeps sighting. An engineer can not just hear the "rules" or see them. They may see them but the rule needs to be explained to be used over and over again. On the other hand the little girl at four years old was using the rules but she didn't know they exisited. Because she could hear them she then formed other music and it was based on the rules without knowing it. Some folks in music have more of a talent for this than others and are said to play by ear. A good example of a music rule that everyone can relat to would be in church when you sing a Hymn and the last notes and words are "Amen". That is called resolving a cord. From a dissonoance (unstable sound) to a consonance (a final or stable sound). Now some folks do not hear the difference, but for most it is pleasing and completes the song. As one progress in music this is taught in Music Theory. But the rule applied long before the student knew it existed. The example is for Western Tonal Music. The rule does not apply to sya music in China or the Far East.

Greetings,
I did not post the elephant artist to make a joke. I posted to prove a point. Who determines what art is. Surely not the elephant's peers. One can call anything "art" and it seems that the simple label qualifies a particular piece as art. I think, as was mentioned, _____ is in the eye of the beholder. Fill in the blank with your favorite noun be it art, beauty, idea, boat or philosophy. A mathematician may see beauty in numbers, an engineer in blueprints, a farmer in a mature field of crops or whatever label you choose to put on the seer and the seen.
Some see progressive jazz as an art form. I think it's crap. Do I have a degree in music or ANY education in that direction? Nope but as Mr. alormaria stated "I know what I like". Please don't throw out that line of "You obviously don't UNDERSTAND progressive jazz." I don't have to understand turkey to know I don't like the taste.

Greetings,
Mr. JD. Sya music?

I'm sure glad you mentioned that RT as I assumed it was a joke because you're so good at jokes.

Now I'm beginning to doubt myself.

My mother was an artist and an art teacher for 40 or so years. I grew up surrounded by artists and listening to artists. My father was a fur trader, newspaperman, a magazine editor and finally a publisher. So many of their friends spent their lives in art, emersed in it getting exposed to the tenth power in it and I've observed and listened to them over long periods of time. That does NOT make me an artist by any measure but I've seen and heard these people relate to art and beauty.

You can study art and understand the elements of art and get much better at producing or creating art.

I know there are people that don't know beauty when they see it and people that can develop and escalate the skill of recognizing beauty. But that may not be the question here.

The question that I see for myself is can we break down beauty into it's basic elements like we do art ..... light, form/shape, line, contrast, color, texture and visual motion as we do in art. Beauty it seems to me at this moment can be known by association, variety and much time but perhaps cannot be aynalized by the element method we use for art and not as a discipline we can study with the typical achedemic methods.

But I not only contend that there is a wide range of people's ability to recognize beauty but that people can increase their ability to do so but many people who are smart or very smart in other things just don't perceive beauty with any understanding. So perhaps beauty is something we can identify, relate to and share but not understand.

And for my own abilities I'm quite talented among typical people at the office, on the street or perhaps on this forum but among the artists I talked of above I'd better keep my mouth shut and ears open or I'd likely loose a great deal of whatever respect I had.

Greetings,

Marin can define for himself what good art is, just like I can have my definition of what it takes to be an artist as stated earlier.

I'm not going to bother with this thread any more but I wanted to finish my bit by saying we had our recording session with Gloria today and it was just about the coolest thing I've ever been involved with in my life.

It was virtually impossible to believe she is only 16 years old. It was like dealing with a seasoned professional musician and while this was her first time recording in a full-up recording studio situation she took to it like she'd been doing this for decades. Incredible thing to see and participate in. Makes one realize how trivial things like this forum discussion actually are.

The composer of the score who is also the music director for this project and is an extremely talented and experienced musician/band leader/performer himself, was equally blown away. This girl is destined to become one of the world's greats, not just in classical music but in jazz and rock, which is what our score sort of is. In addition to her ongoing classical performances she has also joined with two local professional musicians and they are playing jazz/swing, as in Django Reinhardt/Stephani Grappelli.

While her main focus is the violin which she started playing when she was four years old she has just started teaching herself electric guitar. Absolutely amazing person. It is as much fun to watch her play as it is to listen to her play.

Next week, we shoot the video part of this music video with her.

This is Gloria (taken in Washington DC last summer).