FAA grounds 787

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Well, you can take it however you want. Since you don't work for the company your guess is as good as anyone elses' who doesn't work for the company. Which of course, also means that your opinion is irrelevant to reality.:)

I didn't realize I was stating an opinion. It was more of a question. Your the one with all of the opinions.
 
You're absolutely correct, my apologies. "So we can take it" is an assumption on your part, not an opinion. So I'll rephrase my response. "Your assumption is as much a guess as anyone else's' who doesn't work for the company. Which means that your assumption is irrelevant, etc., etc., etc."

More better?
 
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But what those "rules" are, I have no idea.

The rules haven't changed since before WWI.

Bid very very low to get the contract , and since the military always has BESTITIS, charge charge charge for any and every change.

The F 35 was "supposed" to cost under 50 mil each ,

now running about 130 million each,

Change is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
You're absolutely correct, my apologies. "So we can take it" is an assumption on your part, not an opinion. So I'll rephrase my response. "Your assumption is as much a guess as anyone else's' who doesn't work for the company. Which means that your assumption is irrelevant, etc., etc., etc."

More better?

Not really. Look up assumption and then question. Hell even you with an opinion on everything knows that an assumption is not the same as a question.

Here let me help you.

ques·tion

/ˈkwɛs
thinsp.png
tʃən/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled [kwes-chuh
thinsp.png
thinsp.png
n] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA
noun 1. a sentence in an interrogative form, addressed to someone in order to get information in reply.

2. a problem for discussion or under discussion; a matter for investigation.

3. a matter of some uncertainty or difficulty; problem (usually followed by of ): It was simply a question of time.

4. a subject of dispute or controversy.

5. a proposal to be debated or voted on, as in a meeting or a deliberative assembly.



<H2 class=me>as·sump·tion

</H2>/əˈsʌmp
thinsp.png
ʃən/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled [uh-suhmp-shuh
thinsp.png
thinsp.png
n] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA
noun 1. something taken for granted; a supposition: a correct assumption. Synonyms: presupposition; hypothesis, conjecture, guess, postulate, theory.

2. the act of taking for granted or supposing. Synonyms: presumption; presupposition.

3. the act of taking to or upon oneself. Synonyms: acceptance, shouldering.

4. the act of taking possession of something: the assumption of power. Synonyms: seizure, appropriation, usurpation, arrogation.

5. arrogance; presumption. Synonyms: presumptuousness; effrontery, forwardness, gall.

Got it? It was a question, not an assumption or an opinion.

You answered the question in, what I believe is a biased manner, which could be expected. The fact that you work there is of relevance but it in no way makes you an authority. Unless you attend the BOD meetings or act as an advisor to the BOD. There are many people that work there. Some know way less than you and some know way more than you about the operations within the company.
 
Let me make one thing perfectly clear here. I revel in discussions where opposing views by smart people are openly debated.

To that end, Marin would be an early hire for any organization I worked for. He is bright, loyal and knows how to get the job done. He puts up with no BS and is very fun to be around. Provided Boeing lets guys like Marin and not a bunch of tied to the past "yes boss" types fix the 787 electrical issues, the future is bright. I look forward to his book, "How Boeing Fixed The 787"

I remain,

Clueless in Seattle
 
Unless you attend the BOD meetings or act as an advisor to the BOD.

Funny you should mention that because we support the CEO and the BOD as well as the entire rest of the company worldwide. To that end we are often in a position to know about things going on or being planned that most people in the company will never know until it happens, if it does. Obviously we cannot reveal or discuss them outside the realm of our work.

We have a whole room (code locked) that is lined floor to ceiling with the footage we have shot in support of the 787 dating from when it was one of two design concepts that were being considered for our next airplane program. One concept was code-named Yellowstone. The other was named (by Alan Mulally) the Sonic Cruiser.

The Sonic Cruiser was the favorite of ours and our customers until the reality of fuel prices began to hit home. The key to why the Sonic Cruiser would have worked aerodynamically was conceived and developed by one guy, an engineer Boeing referred to as "Engineer X" to hide his identity from the media, and more importantly, the competition. I interviewed Engineer X to get on tape his explanation of why his concept made the Sonic Cruiser viable as an aircraft.

But economic reality made the Sonic Cruiser impractical so we turned our attention to Yellowstone. Yellowstone subsequently became the 7E7 and when the basic configuration was determined it was given the next 700-series number in line and the program was officially launched as the 787.

The room I referred to contains tapes we shot of every key meeting, including the intense debates that occurred between the proponents of aluminum and the proponents of composites and the subsequent decision and why it was made. The tapes contain footage of the entire 787 development process both at Boeing and at all our key suppliers and partners. While we, including me, have provided similar coverage of our previous models starting with the 767 and continuing through the 57, 77, NextGen37, and the 47-4, our coverage of the 87 has been unprecedented.

And you don't direct this stuff and conduct these kinds of interviews and not come away knowing a hell of a lot about the programs, the people, and the company. If one likes the air transportation industry-- which I do-- that is what is so fantastic about this job. I would bet that the people in our department-- which is not very big, in Puget Sound there are only about 20 of us--- know more about what goes on in this company than anyone else who works here including the CEO and the board.

Because one week we might be supporting McNerney in a presentation to the board, the next week we might be producing a video to support a sales campaign to an airline, the next week we might be doing a video about a new technology being developed, the next week we might be in China doing a video about a project Boeing is partnering on, the next week we might doing a video about a new lift system being used by our overhead crane operators, the next week we can be in Dubai talking to Emirates about why the 777 is so successful for them and shooting their entire operation from the ramps to their maintenance and cargo operations to takeoffs and landings out next to the runways to their class on teaching flight attendants the proper way to slice and serve cheese in first class, on and on and on.

One of our videographers and I have ridden behind the robotic tape head on the huge arm of one of the automated tape-laying machines while it was winding a 787 fuselage section in Charleston. That's the level of involvement we get with our products and processes.

And we aren't just recording what happens, we also make things happen sometimes. I and another guy came up with an in-flight scenario while shooting material for a video supporting our tanker bid in the 777 full-motion simulator. Our scenario was to have the flight crew detect and evade a SAM launch by instantly slamming the plane over into an inverted bank and diving for the ground. All of our planes can do this. The A330 cannot. It was a capability nobody on the program had thought of depicting. So I directed this scenario along with the other scenes we were shooting that day and the editor included it in the finished video.

Now the tanker decision was not made on the strength of a video. In the overall scheme of things the videos we and I assume EADS produced in support of our respective campaigns played a minor role at best. But we did hear later that our SAM evasion scenario made a huge impression on the Air Force people who were part of the whole selection process. And that scenario came about because I'm a pilot and have a thorough understanding of Boeing and Airbus' flight control philosophies and the other guy, now retired, has even more experience with flight control philosophy development and had had SAMs shot at him a few times.

And while we are doing all this stuff in Puget Sound, our counterparts in St. Louis and southern California are doing the same kinds of things in support of Boeing's defense and space operations.

So yes, JD, I and the rest of us in our department know more about Boeing than you can even conceive it's possible to know. And it doesn't hurt that the company pays us a bunch of money to do what we do.:). I don't believe anyone here or in St. Louis makes less than six figures a year.

And interestingly enough, what we do and why we do it dates all the way back to Bill Boeing and the very first days of the company, first known as Pacific Aero Products, soon changed to Boeing Airplane Company. Because, as I was told by the company historian and archivist many years ago, Boeing had a keen interest in photography and motion pictures. I don't know if he became involved in either of these as a hobby or not, but from day one, he had everything of interest going on at the company recorded in still photography and in many cases motion pictures. We're still at it today.
 
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Funny you should mention that because we support the CEO and the BOD as well as the entire rest of the company worldwide.

So yes, JD, I and the rest of us in our department know more about Boeing than you can even conceive it's possible to know.


Just getting to what you answered. I would like to point out that most everyone that works for any company can make your first statement. Even the janitor. If they can't they need to go someplace else to work. You on the other hand are painting the picture that you are in counsel. Big difference. I'm sure your work is important to Boeing but that doesn't mean that they ask your advise.

As to your second point so does the CEO's secretary but again he or she isn't asked for advice on how to run the company.

BTW these are in fact opinions.
 
I think you are misinterpreting the word "support" In our case it means work directly with them to record and perhaps later put together and distribute whatever information they want to disseminate. And we often advise them, "them" including the CEO at times, on how most effectively to present their information or message using video.

Never said they ask our advice, except on the subject of video. I said that because of what we do, we know a hell of a lot about what's being discussed at that level in the company, what those discussions consist of, and what's being planned, and we often know it a long, long time before it becomes known throughout the company, if it ever even does. The janitors aren't at those meetings, but we often are.
 
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... and you should review that stack of NDAs and PIAs before you comment about half the stuff you hear. IP has never been more at the forefront in our company.
 
from today's Seattle Times....

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WASHINGTON — U.S. investigators examining the battery charger from a Boeing 787 that caught fire this month in Boston have found no evidence of flaws that could have caused the incident.

The National Transportation Safety Board has completed testing of the charger at the Tucson, Ariz., plant where it was made by Securaplane Technologies, the agency said in an emailed news release Sunday.

The NTSB also said it found nothing wrong on the device it examined known as an auxiliary power unit, which contained the lithium-ion battery that burned on a Japan Airlines 787 at Logan Airport in Boston on Jan. 7.

The Federal Aviation Administration grounded all 787 Dreamliners on Jan. 16 after a second battery incident occurred in Japan during an All Nippon Airways flight. The battery emitted smoke and became charred, forcing pilots to make an emergency landing.

The NTSB is assisting Japanese investigators in that incident. Debbie Hersman, the board’s chairwoman, on Thursday called both fires a significant safety concern.

The agency has so far not discovered why the battery caught fire, Hersman said.

The JAL plane was delivered to the airline Dec. 20 and had made 22 flights before the incident, according to the NTSB. The lithium-ion battery that caught fire was produced in September.

Although a fire destroyed one of two big batteries on the 787 parked at the Boston airport, a quick examination of the second battery found “no obvious anomalies,” the NTSB said Sunday.

The second battery was of identical design but used for a different purpose.

The board said its lab was still studying the destroyed battery, whose function was to start the auxiliary power unit, a small jet engine used mostly on the ground. The battery, which was not being charged or discharged, caught fire while the jet was empty after completing a flight to Boston from Tokyo.

The undamaged battery on which the board reported Sunday was a backup for cockpit instruments, near the nose.

On Jan. 16, during an All Nippon Airways domestic flight in Japan, the main battery used to back up cockpit instruments began belching smoke a few minutes after takeoff, forcing an emergency landing. Investigators have not said whether it was being charged at the time. The planes were grounded shortly afterward.

The batteries use a lithium-ion chemistry, which has been in use for many years in many applications but is new in airplanes. Investigators say the problem could be with the batteries or with the associated electronics used to manage them.

The board’s update also said investigators had reviewed two systems associated with the auxiliary power unit and found no problems.

An NTSB-led team also examined circuit boards used to monitor the battery in the in-flight incident in Japan, the board said. The circuit boards were damaged in the incident, “which limited the information that could be obtained from tests,” the board said. ”

The board said it had sent two additional investigators to Seattle, where it was working with the Federal Aviation Administration to review work at Boeing. One investigator will work with a group reviewing Boeing’s efforts to solve the problems, and the other will work on how the lithium-ion batteries were approved by the FAA.

The RTCA, a group that advises the FAA on some technical issues, in 2008 recommended tougher testing standards for lithium-ion batteries on aircraft to ensure they wouldn’t burn or explode even if control circuitry failed, The Wall Street Journal reported Sunday night. The FAA decided such testing wasn’t necessary, and it’s not clear whether it would have prevented the two 787 incidents, the Journal said.

Japan’s transport ministry said Monday it has ended inspections of battery maker GS Yuasa and will look at Kanto Aircraft Instrument, a battery-monitor maker.

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"and will look at Kanto Aircraft Instrument, a battery-monitor maker."

That and the claim that Boeing will loose at least 5 BILLION in "income" was the story on Bloomberg Monday AM.

With every car maker , aircraft maker , battery maker and all their related suppliers involved , of course it will be resolved.

The biggest question is when , tomorrow or in 6 months , 2 years?

At what point does everyone throw in the LI towel and go back to what works , rather than bear the expense of inventing new tech?

Will it take an extra 100 , 200 aircraft sales to pay for this experiment?

Most pax just want cheap seats , with out being required to swallow their knees , and would not be put off paying an extra .01 penny a mile lifting 60 lbs extra.
 
from today's Seattle Times....

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The National Transportation Safety Board has completed testing of the charger at the Tucson, Ariz., plant where it was made by Securaplane Technologies, the agency said in an emailed news release Sunday.

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Marin

Isn't this the same place that:
  • had a building burn down in 2007 as a result of a Li battery fire.
  • fired whistle blower Michael Leone (at that time his complaints were found frivolous and not on point) for going public and complaining to the FAA back then on Li battery problems?
Did not the NTSB also say this weekend that maybe the 787 batteries should be encapsulated in a fire proof container? So much for the Li battery weight savings if this comes about
 
Did not the NTSB also say this weekend that maybe the 787 batteries should be encapsulated in a fire proof container? So much for the Li battery weight savings if this comes about

They are enclosed in a Ti box now.
 
At what point does everyone throw in the LI towel and go back to what works , rather than bear the expense of inventing new tech?

Lithium battery technology isn't going anywhere. Lithium has the highest reactivity and lowest density weight of any metal. I don't see that technology going anywhere.

I do see thermal battery management getting MUCH stricter though. The same problem could exist on your Chevy Volt, Ford Fusion, Tesla or Nisson Leaf (in your garage...)
 
Lithium has the highest reactivity and lowest density weight of any metal.

And it burns really well .

80% of the 33 battery fires since 06 have been LI.

Most not even hooked up , just being shipped.

"aviation weak"
 
Today's (Jan 29th) NY Times had an article on 10 failed ANA Li batteries in the few months leading up to the on board fire. Lots of other mumbo jumbo from NTSB as they attempt to cover the bases
 
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From today's news, it appears that ANA and JAL (and by inference also Boeing) have known about the battery problem for some time and are reported to have switched out batteries many times on their 787s. I guess we are just fortunate that the problem became visible to an unsuspecting public before a serious event occurred.
 
Aren't they just more of those ignorant folks?

You can believe them if it makes you feel better.....:)

Your right. Why would I believe the folks that fix and fly them. The builder would never cover up a problem. What's that called? Risk assessment? I went through this once or twice before and you would think I would have learned. Refresh my memory, did Ford ever admit to the Pinto gas tanks or for that matter the Explorer tire problem? I'll just wait and see what happens.:banghead:

My problem is I live right under 5L here in Raleigh and I'm only concerned if they drop one on my house. But from what I can see they have their problems on the ground or at altitude so I may not have anything to worry about.
 
Jan 30th - a series of articles in Seattle Times- their aerospace writer Dominic Gates seems pretty sharp.

The one that seemed on point talked about the loss (on the ground) of a Cessna Citation due to a Li battery fire and the road (still in progress) Cessna has taken to gain FAA approval. It appears to be a different road than Boeing took after they became aware of Li battery problems two years ago.

According to the articles, some are predicting an 18 month re-design and approval process. We shall see---------
 
According to the articles, some are predicting an 18 month re-design and approval process. We shall see---------

Boeing is said to be ramping up to produce 10 a month, 18 months will have half of the desert covered with aircraft waiting for "the fix".

My guess is Boeing will bite the bullet and dump what doesn't work.

Ni Cads anyone?
 
Lots of posts but short of some basic and critical information: What type of chemistry do the 787 batteries have?

After all:
Chemistry, performance, cost, and safety characteristics vary across LIB types. Handheld electronics mostly use LIBs based on lithium cobalt oxide (LCO), which offers high energy density, but have well-known safety concerns, especially when damaged. Lithium iron phosphate (LFP), lithium manganese oxide (LMO) and lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) offer lower energy density, but longer lives and inherent safety. These chemistries are being widely used for electric tools, medical equipment and other roles. NMC in particular is a leading contender for automotive applications. Lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide (NCA) and lithium titanate (LTO) are specialty designs aimed at particular niche roles.

There were lots of laptop PC batteries with thermal runaway issues, the problems with lithium cobalt oxide are well known. Seems that neither Boeing or Yuasa want to comment (a little damning in itself..) But the New York Times article linked in JD's post suggests that the cobalt oxide chemistry were the ones being used. If that is so, how stupid can you get?
 
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"If that is so, how stupid can you get?"

No progress comes with out risk.

The question is how long does a failure take to be recognized?
 
Ultimately, Boeing knew good and well how potentially dangerous Li batteries could be. And they designed the "battery box' with NUMEROUS layers of safety should the batteries catch fire. I think the lady at the NTSB summed it up nicely:

"You don't need to be an expert to look at the photos of charred batteries and know that some of the safeguards are failing. The "multiple systems" to prevent just this sort of event "did not work as intended," Deborah Hersman, chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, said Thursday of the incident in Boston. In blunt language, Hersman said the "expectation in aviation is never to experience a fire on an aircraft."

I really like that last line. Don't misunderstand her and think that contingencies for fires should not be well thought out. She is just saying that you should not design an aircraft with the EXPECTATION THAT IT IS GOING TO CATCH FIRE!!!!!.... I happen to agree!!!!!!!!!
 
Why should anyone believe anything Ms. Hersman has to say, she doesn't work for Boeing so she must be one of the ignorant masses right?

Even if she did, as we have been reminded, she would only say what she was told by her handlers to say.

Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn't it?
 
She is just saying that you should not design an aircraft with the EXPECTATION THAT IT IS GOING TO CATCH FIRE!!!!!.... I happen to agree!!!!!!!!!

Most aircraft ARE built with the concept that they may catch fire.

The engines are built with firewall cut offs that stop fuel, hydraulic etc to that engine, and usually 2 sets of fire bottles.

Proper planning precludes poor performance,
 
You guys are hilarious. The entire industry is invested in lighter, more powerful battery technologies. This extends in the automotive and consumer electronics industries as well. This is about innovation and there is risk.

Aircraft are built around probability of risk, not potential. It's a subtle difference, but design must assume bad things WILL happen, and work to provide appropriate levels of mitigation.
 
design must assume bad things WILL happen, and work to provide appropriate levels of mitigation.

Yes, that makes sense. So now after the Boeing's LiCo batteries, charger and circuit design have been aptly demonstrated that they don't work correctly together the mitigations are anxiously awaited.

The simple fact is Boeing tried to do too much too soon with the 787 design and business model. The business and technical presses are now replete with Boeing's decision making tree on how all this came about. One does not need to be a Boeing insider to have a very good idea as to what occurred and what is now happening. Full disclosure it is called, not to ignore of course that all sorts of internal CYA has and is taking place.

Truth be known, the Boeing insiders do not have all the answers nor the will to make the changes. Had both of these been in Boeing's possession during the past decade, this thread would not be around and the 787s would be flying. The mitigations will come (be forced upon Boeing) not only from Boeing but also from the outside contractors, world wide regulators, users and unions.

There is good news though, Boeing, their competitors, customers and flying public will benefit from the mitigations.

Last but not least, please note the occupation and knowledge of the person who started this thread. He and his thousands of fellow employees definitely need to be aware that the mitigations are real and not Boeing speak.
 
You guys are hilarious.

What part is "hilarious," the Boeing evasions and coverups, the repitition of misinformation posted by Boeing's local representatives? The fact that we have the temerity to speak about the issues?

Reread the thread(s) and see which posts have earned ridicule and contribute the most to an ironic hilarity.

You Boeing guys have stepped on your d**ks this time and many of us find that very amusing.
 

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