Taming of the Single Screw

beachbum29 said:

Good luck with your presentations.

Maybe you should video them and put them on YouTube for others to learn from?

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I'd be keen to watch. I'm in Australia so seeing you in person is out of the question

Sent from my iPad using Trawler

MVNoPlans;. Thank god there were no human witnesses this past Saturday as I floundered a bit in my first go at it, but hit nothing. 38 degree Saturdays are good that way.

Welcome MVNo Plans, Art now has somebody to reminisce with.

Your 38 degrees, keeps them inside keeping warm, our 38 degrees keeps them inside drinking cold beer.

MVNo Plans, I take it you are/were in the cellular telephone business? I ran one of the original MVNOs for a few years before we cashed in and went cruising, and now consult to one. An early 60's Tolly 32 foot Sedan FB was the first boat my wife and I owned.

Daddyo said:

The difference between the pros (and skilled amateurs) and the not so skilled is throttle. Many people think throttle equals speed but no. Short bursts and you have water moving across the rudder a boom you have control.

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Very true, Daddyo. Even on a twin screw turning the wheel can start the turn quickly. Judicious use of the throttles can be critical in fast current or wind situations.

than just some old guy telling you how to dock by waving his arms around.

Same with RV's , our bus conversion seems to attract all the arm wavers in the park.

Our simple solution was to give the bride a pair of illuminated wands
the same as used at the airport.

Once the local geezers see her doing her wand thing , all vanish!

Greetings,
Mr. CD. Bagpipes? This does it ALL for me...



But, I digress...I think the WHOLE thing boils down to, and wait for it...experience.
Of course it does and it's seminars like Mr. CD is presenting that get people started off on the right foot. I have no doubt that this type of information dissemination is of benefit to all; newbies and "seasoned" (even the pros screw up occasionally) boaters.
I personally feel I can handle about 90% of maneuvering situations adequately. I've had no "formal" training. My boat handling is better than it was 5 years ago and I hope it will be even better in another 5 years.
I have used the back and fill method of turning around a single and I also use rudder position and selective power application for the twins. The latter IS necessary to enter and exit my slip as there is only about 4' clearance for me to turn. So far, no insurance claims. Well, one incident that was rectified without getting the insurance people involved.
Let's all get out there and practice people and remember any landing you can walk away from is a good one.

War Story

One November after dark we pulled in for a night at the Titusville Municipal Marina. Our boat was single screw, but it was a straight forward docking situation. All of the livaboards were out in chairs having their cocktail hour. When we started backing into the slip, all the old farts got up to direct us. They were all waving around, asking to throw them a line, and telling me different things. My wife knew better than to put a line ashore. They were along the main dock and the finger pier. It was absolutely comical.

They were great folks, and as we settled in invited us to their gathering. It was enjoyable. Then over to the Dixie Cross Roads Restaurant for fried seafood. We had a great time.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

Hmm. When I think of how I plan for using rudder, wind and prop-wash on my single, if I got into one of your twins right now and had to do the same docking maneuvers, I'd probably make a real fool of myself.

Handling of my boat changes with things like "how clean is the prop" or "how much water and fuel", etc.. The prop-wash with empty tanks will spin you like a top, but get that boot stripe two inches lower toward the water, and you've got a prop with less variable density over its rotation, becoming more subtle in its scoot. Maybe it takes twice the goose to provoke the same movement. When my prop needs cleaned, you know it. A rougher surface produces lots more confused water and it becomes less responsive.

There's a guy here in the marina I'm staying in who took his 30 ft. Silverton (twin Cruisaders) out for the first time just the other day. His props were caked with so much growth that the boat couldn't respond in any predictable way. Poor guy had to be walked back in to the slip with all of us climbing on everyone else's boats the whole way in. Now he's lost confidence and doesn't want to "boat" anymore. Despite our encouragement to try after he cleans his props, he thinks it's "him".

Witnessing that, it made me wonder how many get aboard boats that aren't even fit enough to respond as they would normally, and they never get a chance to gain a accurate point of reference on either boat or operator. I'm surprised how many AGLCA members report that their loop boat is there first boat experience. With the plethora of different handling hulls, and everything that alters the fundamental handling characteristics that can be taught, it's little wonder that we have challenges at the dock.

one and the same

Andy my best mate lives over at Prevelly, just west of Margaret River in WA. I wouldn't mind your 38 right about now.

Moonstruck said:

One November after dark we pulled in for a night at the Titusville Municipal Marina. Our boat was single screw, but it was a straight forward docking situation. All of the livaboards were out in chairs having their cocktail hour. When we started backing into the slip...

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You're a braver boater than I. Most of our slips up here are double slips. You will have a finger pier on one side, and a neighbor's boat on the other. I always prefer to pull in bow first in a situation like that. My boat steers from the stern, or course, and I prefer not to commit the "business end" of the boat to that very restricted space that doesn't alllow for much steering until late in the procedure- (rather than start off that way). On a totally calm day it's easier to get away with backing in, but the higher freeboard and shallower forward draft of many trawler style boats often means that when it's windy the bow will blow off faster than the stern. If the bow blows off too far and the stern is "pinned" between a dock and a neighboring boat. It's pretty hard to recover. Backing into a slip is a situation where often a thruster is used to keep the bow in line, but a purist might argue that the thruster is a second screw.

I got a lot of single screw experince about 20 years ago when I worked at Boston Harbor Cruises. BHC operates ferries, whale watch boats, harbor tours and more in Boston.
One of the boats I ran for them was used for a floating dinner theater, 150 passengers for dinner and a play. There was seating for 75, half would eat between the first and second act and the other half between the second and third.
The boat that was used for this was originally built as a car ferry with two engines, one in the bow and the other in the stern. BHC removed one engine so the other end became the stern. The bottom design was the same from either end so handling was not easy under way or at the dock. What made it extra challenging to run the boat was that it was 70 feet long and the beam was 36 feet, and no thruster of course. After running that boat most single screw boats are easy for me now.

What most of this comes down to is practice.

That which most of us get very little of.

If you boat twice a month that equals about a dozen times a year that you need to dock your boat.

Kind of hard to get much practice like that.

The very best advice is go slow.

SD

Tucker.....I think you forgot to mention that not only did you have an audience aboard the boat, but you had another one at the dock. With that shape, size and hull design, you had your work cut out.

Especially with Rick Nolan as an audience!

Moonstruck said:

One November after dark we pulled in for a night at the Titusville Municipal Marina. Our boat was single screw, but it was a straight forward docking situation. All of the livaboards were out in chairs having their cocktail hour. When we started backing into the slip, all the old farts got up to direct us. They were all waving around, asking to throw them a line, and telling me different things. My wife knew better than to put a line ashore. They were along the main dock and the finger pier. It was absolutely comical.

They were great folks, and as we settled in invited us to their gathering. It was enjoyable. Then over to the Dixie Cross Roads Restaurant for fried seafood. We had a great time.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

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We stayed there for the night a few months back. A nice group of people. The restaurant over by the bridge is lousy though, you're better off ordering pizza.

caltexflanc said:

MVNo Plans, I take it you are/were in the cellular telephone business? I ran one of the original MVNOs for a few years before we cashed in and went cruising, and now consult to one. An early 60's Tolly 32 foot Sedan FB was the first boat my wife and I owned.

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No, I am just an attorney who abhors having too much of anything resembling an itinerary, hence, "No Plans" being the name of our little cruiser.

MVNoPlans said:

No, I am just an attorney who abhors having too much of anything resembling an itinerary, hence, "No Plans" being the name of our little cruiser.

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Yo, NP

You sound like my kinda guy! I've worked for me-self all me-life. Spontaneity, inventing, and sheer energy into succeeding at each biz I created are my trademarks. That's why our Tolly is named "The Office"... with a big bunch of tongue-in-cheek as to its actual meaning as well as the name's meaningful depiction on transom. Our four seat tow behind runabout is “The Water Cooler”... where secrets get divulged! Tolly Forum carries a rather dry format in being great for nut and bolt Tollycraft stuff, but, there’s a post-crazy “discussion” party at Trawler Forum! Regarding all sorts of boating dialogue and question answers as well as some ribald discussions and a few flair-up feuds now and then! LOL :lol:

You can see in the picts that my Angle (The Admiral) eventually captured and somewhat tamed my wild/crazy heart!!

We recently moved from twin outboards to a single screw Grand Banks. Talk about a change in handling characteristics! The single screw is a big learning curve....but we're learning.

I change my rudder to a thistle rudder i barely need my bow thruster the boat practically turns on a dime. I always back into spots that give me trouble the ability to stop quickly and drive away quickly with control is a great feature. I learned while this while running tow boats. The problem with reverse by the time you stop the boat and head back out you are seriously out of position.
Tow boat don't operate on the same set of rules as pleasure craft do. I don't care about the paint on my tow boat I will sacrifice some to keep my salvage craft safe. With my trawler it needs to be blowing 35 knots before I start to run like a tow boat.

funangler;I change my rudder to a thistle rudder i barely need my bow thruster the boat practically turns on a dime.

For the uninitiated, what's a thistle rudder?

Andy G said:

funangler;I change my rudder to a thistle rudder i barely need my bow thruster the boat practically turns on a dime.

For the uninitiated, what's a thistle rudder?

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The rudder style is know by a couple of different names Schillings or Mystic Rudder are more well known. The rudder has a fish type shape to it with a plate on top and bottom to contain prop wash when it hits the rudder. Some boat suffer a little lost of speed at top end, I did not but rarely push my boat to max speed of 8.5 knots. The other mixed emotion side of this rudder is the boat becomes very resposive to rudder changes. I often have new boaters on board and at speed a 10 degree turn of the rudder will have you doing circles they find if very frustating until they learn to only correct a few degrees. The rudder is great in big following seas where you have to rapidly correct the stern while surfing down a wave face.

I see the trailing edge and from what I think I know it's the Shilling part. But I've not seen the fwd part like your's. Looks like a wraparound sheet metal fabrication to fair the dudder like an aircraft wing. Very nice. Looks like you've got way more than typical area ahead of the shaft. I thought 15 to 20% was the norm and you've got well over 25%. Must at least have a very light helm and possibly able to rudder itself at mid deflection or so. Personally I prefer a larger flat plate style but I've heard the Schilling Rudder works very well and your comments mirror that.

Interesting looking boat you've got. Would like to see more pics of the hull aft.

I can visualize the water course over improved rudder design for added maneuverability while going forward at all speeds... very nice design for that purpose. What I’m not clear on is the rudder’s water course actions in reverse due to boxed-in flat rear-end on rudder that no longer “cuts sharply” to enable direction-assistance water pressure juxtapositions while backing-up with no water flow from prop thrust. Does this rudder design improve reverse steering anywhere near as much as it does while in forward. All in all it’s a very interesting rudder design. Was this particular rudder custom designed (in difference to a usual design of this type rudder) by a marine engineer?

I can't help but to think what good added directional assistance would occur on a twin screw; albeit with much smaller rudder areas for each screw!

RT Firefly said:

I think the WHOLE thing boils down to, and wait for it...experience.
Of course it does and it's seminars like Mr. CD is presenting that get people started off on the right foot. I have no doubt that this type of information dissemination is of benefit to all; newbies and "seasoned" (even the pros screw up occasionally) boaters.
I personally feel I can handle about 90% of maneuvering situations adequately. I've had no "formal" training. My boat handling is better than it was 5 years ago and I hope it will be even better in another 5 years.
I have used the back and fill method of turning around a single and I also use rudder position and selective power application for the twins. The latter IS necessary to enter and exit my slip as there is only about 4' clearance for me to turn. So far, no insurance claims. Well, one incident that was rectified without getting the insurance people involved.
Let's all get out there and practice people and remember any landing you can walk away from is a good one.

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Truth!

I only found a slight improvement in reverse but no worse than the flat rudder. I keep debating about tapering the area ahead of the prop but that is easier said then done. I agree with everyone that says practice. Start with buy really big fender and lots of them. The next step is go have fun when no one is watching. Only with time does skill come master one boat and the next will come easier.

Take a summer off and dock your boat hundreds of times until it becomes second nature, like breathing.

Unfortunately, you have to keep it up.

skipperdude said:

What most of this comes down to is practice.

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And there it is.

In earlier post I responded to a query about docking simulators and if anyone used them or found one they liked. I responded that we did but did not elaborate on the type.

But we do indeed have a docking simulator that we bought a number of years ago and it's terrific. Much better than the Chapman's thing or the simulators that are available today on the web. We still "practice" with it today. The one we have is still available but you have to hunt them down--- they cannot be purchased new.

It was made by a small marine company in Singapore called, of all things, American Marine. It is 36 feet long, weighs 30,000 pounds, and has everything a real boat would have--- two engines, a wheel, two rudders, etc.

As far as we're concerned it is the best docking simulator ever made and we have become extremely proficient at docking our boat using it.

There are similar devices available under a variety of names. Some have two engines, some have one. But all of them do an absolutely stirling job of teaching one how to dock a boat in virtually every situation you are likely to ever encounter.

We strongly advise getting one of these--- the brand name doesn't really matter--- and then practicing with it as often as possible. You'll be amazed at how quickly you pick up the techniques. Once you learn them it's a snap to transfer your skills to your own boat.

while I agree it is practice...after a lifetime of instructing...I also think some people are operators and some aren't.

Some never get stick and rudder good enough and others just never seem to keep up with or stay ahead of the machine they are operating.

Single screw takes the higher side of both...but not by a lot.

Knowing wind, current and basic tendencies are all necessary to staying with or head of the machine. While it sounds easy enough...way too many are kidding themselves.

The real trick isn't putting your boat into your slip every weekend...it's putting it where the dockmaster tells you to, no matter time of day, weather or any other distraction every day of the week in a different place for months on end.

Then and only then are you getting the hang of your boat.

funangler said:

I only found a slight improvement in reverse but no worse than the flat rudder. I keep debating about tapering the area ahead of the prop but that is easier said then done. I agree with everyone that says practice. Start with buy really big fender and lots of them. The next step is go have fun when no one is watching. Only with time does skill come master one boat and the next will come easier.

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There is always that day when things look easy and no matter how careful one is things go awry and bang. There is no substitute for practice you are right