AIS systems

sunchaser said:

This is a similar discussion to 50 years ago for seat belts in cars, 30 years ago for motorcycle helmets, 20 years ago for safe sex, 10 years ago for packing a firearm and today for gun control. Safety is sometimes hard to grasp.

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Nice thought however that is far from what I am seeing these days.

Distractions from a proper look out is what I am seeing and dealing with. Guys spending way too much time on "toys" in the wheel house in ristricted visability.

And

NOT LOOKING OUT THE DAYUM WINDOW !


Just sayin.

sunchaser said:

This is a similar discussion to 50 years ago for seat belts in cars, 30 years ago for motorcycle helmets, 20 years ago for safe sex, 10 years ago for packing a firearm and today for gun control. Safety is sometimes hard to grasp.

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Actually...safety is easy to grasp...
Risk management is the more difficult for some...usually the ones stuck on the principle "safety at all costs"....

psneeld said:

That may have just opened Pandora's box for some....half won't see how your comment fits and the other half won't get what you mean.....

glad it's happy hour!

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That is exactly the reason I have a basck up radar on the wnt list, but broad band short range for more detail. It will be moved from the want list to the MUST have list the same time AIS is. One for long rang eand the other for short range better detail. The same reason we hae two depth one set at 150+ ft and the other a fish finder for more detail under 150 ft.

psneeld said:

The first quote was actually mine......and no I couldn't see that traffic as they didn't have AIS which is what I pointed out...the big guys had them on Radar and were playing controller....

But if I had RADAR...I could have been watching them all and enjoying my beer and sandwich with my feet up....

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geezzz....just put the auto pilot on and enjoy your beer no need for radar.
A couple of years ago a nice 55 footer on the wayt to Catalina island was on auto pilot but the designated watchman decided to go join the party on board and the vessel smacked into the cliffs there at hig speed. ais ounldnt have done them much good either.
If i had the money i would buy one of those 19 inch screened chartplotters that allow you to dispaly radar, weather systems, chart, as over lays. The display alone is like $5000 then the other goodies but whenb you get down to it isnt the enhanced safety worth spending the money on?

so what i am getting from your posts is that most of the hazards out there don't have ais so maybe for now the $200 would be better spent on other more important items?

Most "hazards" don't, but every commercial container ship, aircraft carrier, and barge being towed around does. It's your $200, spend it on your wishes.

bfloyd4445 said:

geezzz....just put the auto pilot on and enjoy your beer no need for radar.
A couple of years ago a nice 55 footer on the wayt to Catalina island was on auto pilot but the designated watchman decided to go join the party on board and the vessel smacked into the cliffs there at hig speed. ais ounldnt have done them much good either.
If i had the money i would buy one of those 19 inch screened chartplotters that allow you to dispaly radar, weather systems, chart, as over lays. The display alone is like $5000 then the other goodies but whenb you get down to it isnt the enhanced safety worth spending the money on?

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Safety/Risk Management is a mindset from a way of doing things/practicing/training...NOT material objects (which are just tools).

You can do a boatload of cruising without a lot of electronics. Now if you are the type who will push on after dark or in bad weather...sure...those electronics are the difference between it being too work like and recreational fun boating....safety/risk management is more how you apply having those tools combines with your skill set and a bunch of other variables to make the voyage more (for lack of a better word) SAFE.

I just went 800 miles, Jersey to Georgia, winter cruising with a cheap laptop, free charts, a 15 year old Furuno chartplotter/fishfinder (no charts) that was given to me, and all I had to do was buy the $29 GPS antenna for the laptop and a $99 transducer for the sounder. I hardly even look at the stuff as it doesn't tell me much more than what the chartbook would or even easier...SEEING THE MARKS WITH BINOCULARS!!!!

Again...travel at night, bad weather or even in a faster boat and those electronics do make it nicer....but for most cruising...they don't make it safer because the weak link is still attached to the helm.

SomeSailor said:

Most "hazards" don't, but every commercial container ship, aircraft carrier, and barge being towed around does. It's your $200, spend it on your wishes.

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absolutely false....I had to dodge numerous tug/barge combos on the Chesapeake that did NOT have AIS...and for dodging those other guys...stay out of the shipping channels for the most part and they aren't much to worry about then....but there are thousands more that will ruin your day that just don't and probably never will have it.

psneeld said:

Safety/Risk Management is a mindset from a way of doing things/practicing/training...NOT material objects (which are just tools).


I just went 800 miles, Jersey to Georgia, winter cruising with a cheap laptop, free charts, a 15 year old Furuno chartplotter/fishfinder (no charts) that was given to me, and all I had to do was buy the $29 GPS antenna for the laptop and a $99 transducer for the sounder. I hardly even look at the stuff as it doesn't tell me much more than what the chartbook would or even easier...SEEING THE MARKS WITH BINOCULARS!!!!

Again...travel at night, bad weather or even in a faster boat and those electronics do make it nicer....but for most cruising...they don't make it safer because the weak link is still attached to the helm.

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..........your absolutely right. Free charts?? Where do you get those?I'm one of those that loves the electronic gadgets but i also like simplcity. There is a free application for your smart phone that will do the gps tracking, My Tracks, anywhere and it then downloads the charts when you reenter cell phone areas. But i still find it useful to find my way home in the fog ro when hiking and get turned around. I saw a demonstration by an avid sound boater that uses nothing but his cell phone and the $15 navionics app with there charts. You still must purchase the charts but they are also cheap like 10-15 dollars. I don't have much radar experiance and none with the new systems but it seems to me like they are still a bit iffy and can miss object close to you so there is no substitute for the ol eyeball. I guess with a trawler you are always going snail speed so speed isnt a factor

you get the charts and other important pubs from here...
Nautical Charts & Pubs

this is the name of the free charting software...google it to find it's home...

OpenCpn

bfloyd4445 said:

so what i am getting from your posts is that most of the hazards out there don't have ais so maybe for now the $200 would be better spent on other more important items?

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Did you.check your area on the AIS site I showed on my first reply? That will show you what is in your area. Then then you have a better idea.

Phil Fill said:

Did you.check your area on the AIS site I showed on my first reply? That will show you what is in your area. Then then you have a better idea.

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yes thank you. I can spend lots of time exploring the many options at that site. I see they are even giving away ais equipment in areas they need coverage

bfloyd4445 said:

yes thank you. I can spend lots of time exploring the many options at that site. I see they are even giving away ais equipment in areas they need coverage

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Wow! I did not see that! I often bring up the site to see what is out there especially during storms. Another site I like is National Data Buoy Center National Date Buoy which tells the wind speed, wave height, wave period and the air temp. Between the AIS and the buoy, you have a good idea of what is out there.

The reason we will get AIS is because we plan on cruising in some areas that we can not get Verizon internet service. We need a new another VFH for back up, so may as well get the greatest and latest.

There are also "Virtual" AIS targets starting to be deployed. They are used to display hazards that are not currently on charts (reefs, wrecks, deadheads, etc. could all be assigned a virtual AIS beacon number (with an expiration)

Good article about it here: http://ezinearticles.com/?Virtual-AIS&id=1947322

RickB said:

Just imagine how effective they would be if you had two radars!

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Yes! great idea. Lots of people already have two engines so why not twin radar as well. Hummm....if two is better maybe we should have three???

Phil Fill said:

Wow! I did not see that! I often bring up the site to see what is out there especially during storms. Another site I like is National Data Buoy Center National Date Buoy which tells the wind speed, wave height, wave period and the air temp. Between the AIS and the buoy, you have a good idea of what is out there.

The reason we will get AIS is because we plan on cruising in some areas that we can not get Verizon internet service. We need a new another VFH for back up, so may as well get the greatest and latest.

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looks good but I need to learn this site. How do you find wave height, period?

Wave height and period are not available on all buoys. For those that have them, they're really handy. I use the one at Dungeness every time I make the crossing of the Straits. It's a great reference.

SomeSailor said:

Wave height and period are not available on all buoys. For those that have them, they're really handy. I use the one at Dungeness every time I make the crossing of the Straits. It's a great reference.

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thanks. I was looking at the one off the coast of oregon by reedsport but wasnt able to get any wave data. Sure would be nice. Of course it may be there i just havent figured out the site yet

what a dummy its there. Right now it is 5.2 and period 11sec. Station 46229

dhmeissner said:

So I used the search function and typed in AIS. No results. So I'm wondering do I need one of these?

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We have so far found no need or value in adding AIS. Not that we don't feel the technology is great and can be extremely useful in some areas and situations. But so far we have not seen any need for it in the boating we do and the areas we do it in.

We don't run at night because of all the crap in the water in the San Juan's north into BC (don't know about the south Sound- our boat refuses to go there ).

If the visibility is poor and we are in a commercial shipping area we use Seattle, Victoria, or Vancouver VTS to be informed of potential traffic conflicts and to have the commercial vessels informed of our whereabouts and intentions. We are told that this makes the commercial folks a lot more aware of us and our whereabouts as opposed to hoping they'll notice us on their AIS displays unless we get real close and they're running a proximity alarm.

We do have an AIS receiver application in our iPad but so far its only value has been to tell us the "name of that ship over there."

We have a very good radar and monitor it all the time even in good visibility. So when the visibility drops we have no problem transitioning " to instruments" since we're running the boat that way anyway. So between the radar and VTS we have yet to be "surprised" by other traffic.

We do have a hole in our panel to fill. Right now it's occupied by a very good Furuno Loran-C unit that came with the boat. The three candidates for this spot are a second VHF, a weather (wind speed/direction) display, or an AIS.

The AIS is a very distant third. We just don't see it is contributing any information that we really need to know right now and we cannot conceive of any situation in our future boating here or on up into SE Alaska in which AIS would be important to have.

So, cool toy, valuable to have in confined waters like the ICW perhaps where there is lots of traffic, but it's nothing we view (so far) as being essential to recreational boating in this area. The prices have come down a lot but we'd rather put the money in the fuel tank.

Marin said:

We have so far found no need or value in adding AIS. Not that we don't feel the technology is great and can be extremely useful in some areas and situations. But so far we have not seen any need for it in the boating we do and the areas we do it in.

We don't run at night because of all the crap in the water in the San Juan's north into BC (don't know about the south Sound- our boat refuses to go there ).

If the visibility is poor and we are in a commercial shipping area we use Seattle, Victoria, or Vancouver VTS to be informed of potential traffic conflicts and to have the commercial vessels informed of our whereabouts and intentions. We are told that this makes the commercial folks a lot more aware of us and our whereabouts as opposed to hoping they'll notice us on their AIS displays unless we get real close and they're running a proximity alarm.

We do have an AIS receiver application in our iPad but so far its only value has been to tell us the "name of that ship over there."

We have a very good radar and monitor it all the time even in good visibility. So when the visibility drops we have no problem transitioning " to instruments" since we're running the boat that way anyway. So between the radar and VTS we have yet to be "surprised" by other traffic.

We do have a hole in our panel to fill. Right now it's occupied by a very good Furuno Loran-C unit that came with the boat. The three candidates for this spot are a second VHF, a weather (wind speed/direction) display, or an AIS.

The AIS is a very distant third. We just don't see it is contributing any information that we really need to know right now and we cannot conceive of any situation in our future boating here or on up into SE Alaska in which AIS would be important to have.

So, cool toy, valuable to have in confined waters like the ICW perhaps where there is lots of traffic, but it's nothing we view (so far) as being essential to recreational boating in this area. The prices have come down a lot but we'd rather put the money in the fuel tank.

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Kill two birds with one stone and get a VHF with AIS built in. Very small premium. I can see its use up there in the islands, makes it easy to see that is a ferry on your radar, for instance and you hail it by name.

By the way, that Marine traffic site is fun, but it is not real time, is not for navigation and thus is not a substitute for an actual AIS system.

caltexflanc said:

I can see its use up there in the islands, makes it easy to see that is a ferry on your radar, for instance and you hail it by name.

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Makes sense but...... Never had a reason to hail a ferry by name, nor any commercial vessel for that matter that I can recall, in the 26 years we've been boating up here. If we ever did we'd know its position so could hail it that way.

Actually that's not true. We've hailed the Lady Washington a few times because I've worked with one of her skippers on a film shoot. But the Lady Washington is not a vessel that can be mistaken for any other.

It's true the app on our iPad does not update in real time but it updates automatically every two minutes and at our speed and the speeds of most of the commercial vessels around here and the distances we're dealing with that's a more than sufficient update rate to know what's around us and where it's heading.

If we add another VHF we might consider including the AIS function if it's an option but at this point we see no return on the investment for the reasons I've stated. Be a cute thing to have on the boat, no question, but as OFB said earlier, we get everything we need to know from the radio, the radar, and looking out the "dayum window."

Marin said: "If the visibility is poor and we are in a commercial shipping area we use Seattle, Victoria, or Vancouver VTS to be informed of potential traffic conflicts and to have the commercial vessels informed of our whereabouts and intentions. We are told that this makes the commercial folks a lot more aware of us and our whereabouts as opposed to hoping they'll notice us on their AIS displays unless we get real close and they're running a proximity alarm." Calling the VTS makes the VTS and whoever they tell more aware, but if you are nearby, commercial traffic will probably already be doing a radar based collision avoidance assessment on you that may or may not trigger an alarm (depending on settings).

Marin said: "We do have an AIS receiver application in our iPad but so far its only value has been to tell us the "name of that ship over there." We have an AIS receiver, and its value is to tell us the location, speed and name of vessels that are operating in our area that are hidden from radar. It greatly improves situational awareness. Sure VTS monitoring can indicate relevant traffic, but knowing exactly where commercial traffic is located enhances our ability to navigate so as to ease any passing/meeting/overtaking situation. If you are navigating so as to stay clear of commercial traffic, Rule 9 narrow channels and Rule 10 shipping lanes, having an AIS transponder tends to be unneeded.

Where we think VTS becomes valuable is when there is an island or islands between us and the traffic. Radar won't be able to paint the vessels at that point but VTS will make everyone aware of who's where so there are no surprises up ahead. That's they way it's worked foe us, anyway, and it's been very helpful.

I think once you have AIS on your boat you appreciate it's usefulness more. I really appreciate it now that I'm on a slower boat. When crossing an active shipping channel it really helps knowing what's coming down the channel at ya and you really start to appreciate how fast some of those big guys are really moving.

Be careful with the Apps though. I've watched them side by side with the real AIS targets and they're always several minutes behind and often missing whole areas of traffic.

Oddly, most all AIS readouts I've seen for pleasure craft in the San Francisco estuary are those berthed or moored. ... Don't see a critical need for AIS by "dock queens."

Thanks everyone. You've given me lots to think about. I like the idea of getting a AIS capable VHS. But I think first I'll upgrade my RADAR. (an older 16 mile Furuno now) And, I will certainly keep my dayum windows clean.

markpierce said:

Oddly, most all AIS readouts I've seen for pleasure craft in the San Francisco estuary are those berthed or moored. ... Don't see a critical need for AIS by "dock queens."

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I wouldn't call AIS a critical need by any means. It's just a great tool to see and be seen. I don't smoke or drink so I can justify my only real vice (boating) and buy the tools I wish to have.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I thought the same way as you Marin untill i read some of the comments by posters in this thread.
if my understanding after reading a very informative link provided by someone at this thread AIS contacts will give an alarm on the more sophisticated systems installed on the commercial vessels if a vessel is in the danger zone.. Also, hey guys correct me if i'm wrong, i get the impression its mounted outside and plugs into your chart plotter radar so no space is needed for it at your helm.
I really like the way a vessel shows up with this system and instantly marks your position with emergency services if you have an incident. This would enable faster response which may save your life if your sinking etc.
So, for $200 it sounds like a pretty cheap and very effective safety device as all coast gaud stations use this system.
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bfloyd--- I don't believe the cheap $200 unit does all the stuff you list. I don't even know if the $200 unit is a transmitter. I suspect it's only a receiver. And it does not mount outside, it is another electronics box like a radio that you have to mount inside somewhere. So the cheap unit will show you what's out there but it won't display you on anyone else's AIS display.

Now I could very well be wrong on that, but when we looked into what it would take to get a full-function AIS it was not cheap. This is one reason we have rejected the idea, at least for now. In order to be "visible" to other vessels, which so far as we're concerned is the only real value we can see in the thing, it required a not-insignificant investment. And for our boating and where we do it, we do not see the benefit as being worth the cost. As a few others have said here, it's just another electronic gizmo to play with, one more temptation to keep your head buried in the panel instead of looking outside for crap in the water that could rip our shafts and V-struts out and sink the boat.

OFB boats in some of the most traffic-intense waters in the PNW--- the Fraser River and Vancouver harbor area. Amazingly he has managed to operate his boat up there and go places that 99 percent of most boaters here don't even know exist, and he's done it all without AIS. I think he's a pretty good example of boating reality around here.

So to us AIS is a cute toy for a recreational boat, but in no way anything we consider essential.

Mind you, I don't think AIS is a bad thing to have. If someone wants it and thinks it enhances their boating, great. If nothing else, it keeps the people making AIS units employed and that's always a good thing, right?

But for us and how we view our boating, a second VHF at the lower helm would be of more value to us at this point if we were going to spend money on more instrumentation. Or an EPIRB although until we start taking the boat into the more remote waters up the BC coast that is not something we view as essential. Same deal with satcom--- we intend to install it but not until we are ready to start taking the boat way up north.

But at this point we feel our boat has all the electronics we need with two full-size C-Map GPS plotters, an outstanding radar, an upgraded depth/speed/log/time display, an excellent panel mount VHF at the lower helm with another one up top, a very good handheld VHF, and an old but serviceable handheld GPS C-Map plotter.

So for now we prefer to put the money in the tank and take the boat out.

Marin said:

bfloyd--- I don't believe the cheap $200 unit does all the stuff you list. I don't even know if the $200 unit is a transmitter. I suspect it's only a receiver.

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Our Raymarine AIS650 Class B Transceiver approx $900 - but to us, it was worth it!