Passagemaking question???

Now I am fine tuning some of my research, as the time goes near, to how much range I need in the long run.



In the Pacific 4000nm range is considered required to go anywhere.

GalaxyGirl said:

Again, with all due respect, this is a different question.
I figured that I wouldn't have to reference, because most active posters would remember me anyhow and those that don't or weren't around, can always view past posts if they choose.

and, by the way, I took all of the advice that I was given then on forums. I chucked my idea of 2 boats and decided to go with 1 trawler. I also downsized significantly from 90' to 65' as a direct influence of good advice that I was given on forums.
That's why in my very first post on this thread I made it clear that I have been researching boats for a while now and trying to narrow it down.

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How much research have you done via going boating for several consecutive in various waters and weather on various kinds of boats? Personally I too like to do all kinds of reading and similar research, but very little of it made any contribution to the boat buying decision. The only things that were very useful were books and articles about boat design, construction and systems.

I'd suggest revisiting your idea of buying the "ultimate boat" first. For one thing, you may well never use it for its "ultimate" purpose. Once you have done some cruising, buy a boat best suited for your near term plans. Then you can really enjoy yourselves, and will learn much more what that "ultimate" boat should really be.

Posts can be deceiving, so forgive me if I misconstrue, but you sound like someone who has spent very little time actually on boats, or actually cruising. I'd say, first things first, do a lot of that. Then you'll know what the questions to ask that are right for you.

Back to GG's question about what 65' passage makers should be considered and assuming:

• GG wants a true passage maker and not a coastal cruiser
• GG ignores the TF "don't do it" advice
• GG obtains the requisite training and skills to do what GG wants to do
• GG has the $$ to purchase and maintain a 65' passage maker
• 3 - 4 staterooms
• Resale value at end of journeys
• Vessel has tankage to do US to Hawaii

WHAT 65' TRAWLER TYPE PASSAGE MAKERS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED??
My first blush choices are:

• Nordhavn 62
• An Outer Reef 65-70 (Crew quarters aft)
• Sea Spirit 60
• Cape Horn 65
• Nordhavn 55
• Northern Marine 57
• "Special" but known builds like Malahide, Delfin, Park Isle Marine

What others, and fitting the above assumptions, are out there for $1.0 to $1.5M fully outfitted?

Hey GalaxyGirl, a quick question: what area of the country are you located in? This will substantially change the choice of boats.

Greetings,
Welcome aboard Mr./Ms. IE.

Capn Craig said:

Jeff,
Jeff you seem like I guy I would love to have a deep conversation over a beer about the boat experience.

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I'd be up for swapping some sea stories. We get up to Chgo every now and then and might be interested in a side trip over your way. Stay in touch.

Yup, there are many verbal boaters out there. I do [FONT=&quot]occasionally enjoy hashing out "what I'm going to do" or "what I want to do" or "what I've heard you should do" or "you're a fool if you do that - the book says" or "look how pretty my boat is", but I prefer just jump in ignoring the beauty part.

If you use your resources to only eliminate the blatant dangers you have more for the vehicle/adventure, not to mention the gains by being able to cast beauty aside. Of course this means accepting more risk. But then what is a risk but an opportunity to learn something? The place between risk and danger is wildly different for boaters because ultimately you may have to take responsibility for your own safety - you can't run in the house and cover your ears with a pillow because you don't like thunder, or call AAA when your boat doesn't run, or phone a friend for guidance...might be the reason we have so many verbal boaters?



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Tom, you provided an impressive list of truly capable boats but I hardly see where they would make the stated budget for this thread.

GalaxyGirl said:

I would like to spend under 400k.

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I think the "passage maker" design requirement is what is keeping this dream from becoming a reality sooner rather than later. Yachtworld shows several boats meeting GG's basic requirements, including price point, when you set aside the true passage maker desire that is.

I think that's the point. Dreams.

I've made a dozen or so transoceanic voyages (if one includes three California-Hawaii trips) but only in ships. The idea, however, of being bounced around continuously for weeks at a time with nothing on the horizon in a cramped boat does not appeal. Unless cost was no object (wasted a million $$: so what), I'd not purchase a transoceanic-capable boat unless found out previously I enjoyed such an adventure on someone else's boat.

GG, if you're still hanging around reading these posts, and I hope you are, let me add a couple of thoughts.....
--you said your kids are still in grade school. That puts them about 8-10 years from really being out of the house and on their way to college. With that thought in mind, why not get your feet wet with a "lesser boat" than an ocean rated boat and, if in 10-12 years you decide to go ocean hopping you can upgrade then.

Part of the reason I suggest this is to keep within your $400K budget and buy an ocean rated boat you're going to have one that's pretty old now. Add another 10 years to it and you're likely to encounter some very serious costs to get it ready for an ocean crossing. New electronics, possibly an engine rebuild, etc., would not be out of line before you take off to cross an ocean.

If I were in your shoes, I'd spend a couple hundred grand on a boat that's capable of coastal cruising. Learn how to use it, build memories with your children, and become a seasoned skipper on your own. I'd let the rest of the money sit in a bank or investment account for the next 10 years so it can grow some.

Then, when the last of the kids is out of the house you've had ~10 years to see if crossing oceans is really what you want to do. If not, ship the boat using the $200+K you have in the bank and spend your time coastal cruising in the new location.

I've thought about doing what you were asking about and I've come to realize that spending endless days crossing an endless sea may sound romantic but it's not really what I want. I want to explore new waters, see new sights and experience peoples in far away lands. But I don't want to spend weeks on an open sea getting there. For me, the best part of the journey would come at the destination, not in crossing the ocean to get there.

GFC

Phil Fill said:

In the PNW I wouls not go of 60 ft and/or or 50 tons as moorage and lifts are very limited. there are boat/trawler in the 50 to 60 ft that have 3+ staterooms, 2 baths, 400+ gallon water tanks, 1000+ gallon fuel, which have the range and stability for coastal ocean cruising. However, not many boats, even Nordhavn, Krogan, Selen, seahorse really are designed for crossing an ocean. Sure a few have done, but there are other more boats designed and more capable, but they also cost more, or they a commercial grade. The only Nordhavn that really has a good proven record is their original 62 ft explorer trawler.

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Really? not designed for ocean crossing?,

It doesn't take but a minute to find blogs on numerous Nordhavn, Selene Krogen, "trawlers" that have and are crossing oceans even as I write this. Nordhavn made it's mark as a "passagemaker" with the N46, the big boats came along in their wake. . Ship a yacht to exotic places?? sure but look at the cost of shipping via Dockwise and you will find it will buy a LOT of fuel. Any yacht worth shipping will still need to be well found and ocean worthy with 95% of the same equipment so there isn't a huge savings. Are the Nordhavn, Selene, Diesel Ducks etc. reasonable boats for most of us... nope they are rather costly.. but any passagemaker that is 45' plus is costly. If you want to go for less cost stay near the beach and stick with a typical semi displacement " trawler " like most everybody here.
Below is a great blog of a N%& that did a 13000+ mile pacific cruise in just short of a year.. including the Aleutians. Of course that is after doing Chile, The Pacific, The Galapagos, in previous years.


Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart

HOLLYWOOD

I will simply answer the young lady's question.

Kadey Krogen 54PH. It will spend every penny of that $400k but I think it is more offshore worthy than most of the new ones!!!...and quite likely to house your family.

CPseudonym said:

Tom, you provided an impressive list of truly capable boats but I hardly see where they would make the stated budget for this thread.



I think the "passage maker" design requirement is what is keeping this dream from becoming a reality sooner rather than later. Yachtworld shows several boats meeting GG's basic requirements, including price point, when you set aside the true passage maker desire that is.

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CP

You missed my "assuming he has the $$" lead in. I asked the other TF members what other boats are out there that GG could use for blue water passage making and has the capacity (65') to carry the family.

Boating requires a business outlook too, so lets be honest and say:

GG, you must spend about $1 to 1.5 million to join the blue water cruising club of around 65'. Otherwise stick to much more affordable 65' coastal cruisers."

FF, you're killin' me ova heya!!!

Well, you can cross an ocean in anything. What's-his-name did it in his little Gypsy Moth sailboat, Mark does it in his monster horizontal high rises, and all sorts of crap from the Japanese tsunami is washing up on our coast including containers, barrels, and a dock.

So I think the what-kind-of-boat question is pretty irrelevant in comparison to the question, what kind of boater is best for long, open ocean passagemaking?

And from my very limited experience and observation in open ocean (but not long distance) boating in Hawaii for a lot of years, it takes a very special kind of person to a) want to do it, b) be able to afford to do it, and c) have the skills, fortitude, and perseverance to be able to do it.

And if a, b, and c are not present in spades, the undertaking will most likely be a failure. At best the attempt will never occur, at worst it will occur with undesirable or downright fatal consequences.

Based solely on what I've been reading here, GG has plenty of "a" and pretty much none of "b" or "c."

"B" is a consequence of one's circumstances so the only person who can affect that is her.

"C" however, is not something that one doesn't have and then the next day does have. You don't get it from taking classes or reading books or talking to people, even if they're people with lots of "c." You get it by doing it and doing it a lot.

In preparation for an upcoming video project featuring an absolutely amazing 16 year old violinist (she came in third in the world in a recent event), my musical director mentioned yesterday a statement by somebody famous that to become truly expert at something it takes 10,000 hours of doing it. Now I have no idea if this is even remotely valid but the point certainly is.

But you have to start with hour number one, and that is where GG currently is. So if she wants to realize her current dream of long-range passagemaking, she's got a hell of a lot to learn and to practice before she has any hope of making the dream a reality.

Our violinist started at age four when she picked up a violin and and started messing around with it. GG has to pick up a boat and start messing around with it. Any boat at this point. So all of the advice that has been given earlier in this thread of the smartest way to get into boating at this stage of her non-experience is well worth heeding.

Because if you don't have that "10,000 hours" of experience, your chances of success at long range passagemaking are, in my opinion, pretty much zero no matter what boat you buy.

Greetings,
Mr. Marin. I would suggest closer to 20K hours to become "expert". Proficient, depending on the person, considerably less time.

Marin said:

In preparation for an upcoming video project featuring an absolutely amazing 16 year old violinist (she came in third in the world in a recent event), my musical director mentioned yesterday a statement by somebody famous that to become truly expert at something it takes 10,000 hours of doing it. Now I have no idea if this is even remotely valid but the point certainly is.

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I remember hearing about a guy that is going to try the 10,000 hours theory. If I recall correctly he quit his job and is hoping to become a pro golfer. I've already mastered professional goofing-off. Practice, practice, practice.

Some very capable, but non boating experienced, people we know took possession of their N57 in Dana Point and proceeded immediatley to go on extended journeys and eventually on to Europe. They had some periodic Captain help from time to time. Now a few brief years later they are considered by many consumate people, experts. How I remember stories of how quickly Kansas farm boys became fighter pilots in WWII.

I, possibly misguidedly, for one appreciate how common sense, mechanical experience, dedication and smarts can quickly move a newbie along.

A lot of B can substitute for a lack of C.

Marin said:

... my musical director mentioned yesterday a statement by somebody famous that to become truly expert at something it takes 10,000 hours of doing it.

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Malcolm Gladwell, Outliers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)

I always wondered how many hours we needed?

I first met GalaxyGirl on the Cruiser's Forum where the members are a bit "earthy" as compared to this forum. From my short time here I find folks who have applied the same zeal in their working professional life to boating. GG knows what she wants, and is trying to sift through other's experiences to narrow down what might work for her. Some people, myself included, are dreamers seeking to realize those dreams. No doubt she needs some boating experience, but with her tenacity, I think she will do it. Too bad she didn't have sailing experience on the parent's boat as I did when young. Later in life I cruised solo and discovered I really liked being on a passage by myself, so much in fact that I sold my Cal 40 and entered California Maritime Academy in my mid 40's. A bit of an adjustment having to lock up my home and live on campus as required, having some upperclassman young enough to be my son, giving me demerits for a belt buckle that wasn't shiny enough. I got through it, graduated 3rd in my class, and have enjoyed sailing on container, break bulk, and drill ships. I am on the fence now as to another sailboat or power boat. I share with GG the desire for whatever vessel to be ocean capable, so that I can re-visit the ports I wanted to spend more time in, and of course visit areas that are new to me. I like GG's fortitude, she is going to do this, and is not another dreamer that doesn't. I look forward to meeting GG in that pristine anchorage we both dream of someday.

Thanks for all the informative responses.

Anyone here have a Hat LRC that has crossed? I am reading conflicting opinions as to weather the 65' Hat was built for transatlantic or not.

How long do you figure a trawler would take to cross?

GG,

My friends on the Nordhavn 43 plan on 150 nm daily runs. So if you ran at the same average speed of 6.25 kt, then Baltimore to Gibraltar in a tad over 23 days. Sound like fun?

How long does it take a trawler to cross?

Time = Distance/Speed

My opinion is you would be a danger to yourself, and to everyone aboard your vessel if you attempted a Ocean crossing, unless you hired a professional crew. Just my opinion.

The problem, as evidenced by your questions, is that you don’t know what you don’t know.

There are hundreds of books about crossing oceans in small boats. You should read some. A few by Robin Knox-Johnson, or the Pardeys, or even J. Slocum, might change your mind.

The problem with Cruisers Forum is that the group answer to the post “I don’t know anything about boats, but I’m planning to sail around the world.” is “Go for it!”

Best of luck,

Mike.

deckofficer said:

GG,

My friends on the Nordhavn 43 plan on 150 nm daily runs. So if you ran at the same average speed of 6.25 kt, then Baltimore to Gibraltar in a tad over 23 days. Sound like fun?

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YES!!! Sounds amazing. Can't wait for the day when I can cruise Europe on my own boat. May take me a few years, and maybe some blood, sweat and tears to get there, but I know for certain it will be a million times worth the wait.

GG

Follow the thread about the 6000 mile trip to Brazil. BTW, how would you get your family into a N43? Your boat keeps getting smaller.

Here are two Hatteras owner groups you can tap into for direct knowledge. I have a friend with a 58LRC whose prior owner circumnavigated.

Welcome to the Hatteras Long Range Cruiser Club

Hatteras Owners Forum & Gallery

"There are hundreds of books about crossing oceans in small boats. You should read some. A few by Robin Knox-Johnson, or the Pardeys, or even J. Slocum, might change your mind."

Except for the Marn Marie , and one or two others most of the thousands of circumnavigations have been under SAIL.


Sailors don't usually travel in packs with electricians ready to swim over and repair their boats , mid ocean.