Boat choice?

Well I am getting into the shopping phase. When I will buy, who knows. Ideally, I do not want to be a two boat owner. But if the right boat comes up, I would consider it.
Now, I am a Yachtworld junkie. I have scoured that site looking for potential prospects and certainly have found a few but I want to make sure I haven't overlooked anything.

What I am looking for:

A mid 30s foot boat with a turn of speed...I'd consider bigger if sedan. 15 knots cruise is fine. Diesel. Flybridge with salo(o)n. Low $100k range max. 1mpg...IOW not too big or fast. Coastal cruiser. Potential liveaboard with all liveaboard amenities. No Detroits...sorry...no offense...too loud smoky and thirsty.

The boats I keep coming back to:
The Carver 355/356: it fits the above criteria. It is big on the inside and small on the outside. (Over)powered well with Cummins. Timjet has provided me with excellent info as he owns a 355. Feel free to add info. Plz spare us the prejudicial bias...I know what a Carver is and isn't. Stylewise, I am not a fan of Carver but this particular model(s) has curb appeal. The 405/406 is basically the same boat but 5ft bigger...there are more on the market because there were more diesel models built because of size (and Carver sales/marketing practices). Again, prefer the 355/6 but there are a whopping 2 diesel models on Yachtworld right now. Coincidently, one of them at my marina. And the Cummins don't even break a sweat at the speeds I am desiring...per Timjet.

Hatteras 40ACMY: a little bit bigger than I want but a handsome boat with better lineage than the Carver(FWIW). Cat 3208 power(usually 375hp) which isn't a bad thing but they are big and take up more space in the ER(longitudinally less space I realize). Older for the same price.

There are some Taiwanese boats that I would cautiously consider simply because they are semi-planing boats(and heavy) and need more power to get to the speeds I am desiring. Hyatt and Jefferson top that list. But like I said, I am skeptical of them to cruise EASILY in the mid teens and therefore skeptical of engine life if the POs pushed them to that speed all their life.

Even the Albin 33+3 fast trawler. But that boat gets a little bit out of my price range. I like it though and am always keeping an eye out for a cheaper one.

What am I missing? Fire away!!!

The Mainship 350/390 doesn't quite cut it as most were SIngle Cats that struggled to max out at 12-14kts. Now the twin Yanmar 240s will do mid teens no problem but they are somewhat rare.

We were liveaboards on a Bayliner 4087 (see my avatar pic) before moving up to our current 52. Power was a pair of Cummins 6BTAs (250 each), and it would putt along at 8 knots or jump on plane and be happy at 14-16, with a top speed of 24 if needed.

We had her all over Puget Sound and found her to be comfortable and easy to handle. Here's a blog of some liveaboards that went all over the place onboard their 4087:

MV Dirona Blog - Bayliner 4087

Silverton 372

36 Sabreline Fast Trawler

34 Saberline Sedan

I hear ya John on the mid-teen cruising speed. That played into our decision ultimately. For what you intend I'd not overlook Sea Ray.

OA 39 sundeck, OA 40 europa

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=76375&url=


1987 Ocean Alexander 390 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Baker said:

What am I missing? Fire away!!!

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Eastbay 38. You want to go fast in a beautiful boat with a great use of interior space, that's the only way to do it in my book.

CPseudonym said:

I hear ya John on the mid-teen cruising speed. That played into our decision ultimately. For what you intend I'd not overlook Sea Ray.

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The Sea Ray ACMY just doesn't have much curb appeal for me...and their interiors are little too "unclassic"(a lot of whites and pastels with not a lot of wood). The Sedan Bridge is a potential contender although still suffers the interior design issues. Maxum also has some boats that fit the criteria....although, again, styling is an issue.

Marin said:

Eastbay 38. You want to go fast in a beautiful boat with a great use of interior space, that's the only way to do it in my book.

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Trust me Marin. I would if I could!!!! I love Eastbays!!! Just beyond the price range. And the Sabres run a very close second!!!

Flywright, Styling is an issue on that Silverton....:-/ I am not a trunk cabin fan on that Sabre. And I am a huge fan of that 34...especially with Cummins which are hard to find in that affordable vintage range. They are usually powered by Detroits in the early 90s. They are fairly "small" boats though but awfully handsome!!!

Baker said:

What I am looking for:

A mid 30s foot boat with a turn of speed...I'd consider bigger if sedan. 15 knots cruise is fine. Diesel. Flybridge with salo(o)n. Low $100k range max. 1mpg...IOW not too big or fast. Coastal cruiser. Potential liveaboard with all liveaboard amenities. No Detroits...sorry...no offense...too loud smoky and thirsty.

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First, I would like to say that I've been in your shoes. I've owned a 30' Pilot and know exactly where you're coming from. It's a little too small, a little tender, not much of a salon, a lot of canvass, but has a decent turn of speed. Given your "want list" and all the searching I did 7 years ago, I'd say that Flywright's suggestion of an older Sabre 34 is right up your alley.

Another possibility that I know your familiar with is the Pilot 34. (Single or twin) This is the boat I set out to replace my Pilot 30 with but by pure accident I stumbled on SeaHorse. Don Moon (Moonstruck) owned a Pilot 34 awhile back and spoke very highly of it. My only concern is would you really want to live on one. Hard top sedan would be my choice and everything else fits your "want list."

1 mpg at what speed? My big 80,000lb blimp of a Hatteras gets that at 7 knots or so from two non-smoking 650HP Detroits. There is no reason that any Detroit should smoke other than poor maintenance. But anyhoo...

I had the chance to run a Mainship 390 with twin Yanmars for a day, a trip from Oxnard to the Channel Islands and back, very moderate seas. Zipped right along. My only issue was that the ER was pretty tight, especially compared to the same boat with a single 3208 that I went on a three day cruise in and a few overnights. I'd go with the single and a thruster and go slow given my druthers. Those boats accommodate a lot of people very nicely. One other rap on them on a personal level is that I found the hull slap at night extremely irritating; we took to using the fold out couch in the salon which I thought was a nice set up, much roomier. Overall, I really like those boats. Can't see living on a 34 Pilot, though we really enjoyed it as a day boat or overnight. The one we rented had a single Cummins and a thruster, very fun boat.

If you are in the PNW especially, look at the Tolleys! The 34 aft cabin or 37 Sedans come immediately to mind. I'd certainly consider those before a Carver or Silverton. I know a guy who lives on board a Hatt 40AC with his wife and two little kids, in New Jersey across from NYC. Never been on his boat but he spent a few days on mine and talked about it. Sounds like a good live aboard. His has Cats. I have been on a few of the 43's, great boats.

Have fun in the search!

Walt, That Mainship 34 is just too small. I really wish mainship would have made a flybridge version of the Pilot 34.

I like that Sabre 34 but on that particular one i would be concerned about engine hours. I know a diesel should be fine at that time but Cummins are usually rebuilt before that.

Thanks for the input, Caltex. The 1mpg spec was assumming planing speed...one of my criteria. Please tell me what your Hatt burns at 15 knots??...That's rhetorical! I'm pretty sure The Mainship 350/390 never had a 3208... They were mostly equipped with a Cat 3116. Some early models had twin Volvos. A few had Twin Yanmars. And there was the very occasional single Yanmar or And even more rare, a single Cummins. I am a HUGE fan of these boats but just wouldn't consider anything but the twin Yanmars and they are rare. Ultimately, the single/bow thruster set up is, in my opinion, the superior set up. I just don't know if I can find a larger 35ft(ish) boat that can easily cruise in the teens with that set up...and the space I am looking for. Albin did put a 450hp C series single Cummins in their 33+3 fast trawler. Again, they are rare and I would question their ability to push that boat in the teens. I am not saying it wouldn't...it would just be a concern before buying. There is one on YW but it has sold and they have not taken down the listing. The knock on the Albin fast trawler in any configuration is V-drives. Never owned them and not sure if I should be scared of them....but they do complexify(is that a word) the drivetrain and add more load bearing moving parts.

Tell me your Detroits don't smoke on start up in the cold???

Baker!

Here’s YW sample of Tollycraft boats w/diesel. Different lengths and models. Many more to review on YW’s advanced search engine. Tolly in this size range are usually planing hulls that can really scoot when desired or do hull speed for economy; some are semi displacement. Tolly 48’ and beyond go semi to full displacement. My experience with our 1977 34’ tri cabin Tolly gasser has been outstanding. I have a lot of Tolly boaters I chat with who say the same about their gas or diesel Tollys. Tolly Club Forum is great with notable network of Owner/Tolly-Gurus and commercial business support factors.

Good luck with your “new boat” search and sale of current vessel!

Art

45’ers

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1994/Tollycraft-45-Cockpit-Motoryacht-1571002/Harrison-Township/MI/United-States

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1996/Tollycraft-Aft-Cabin-2342035/Ft.-Lauderdale/FL/United-States

44’ers

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1991/Tollycraft-%2744-Cockpit-MY-2483730/Deale/MD/United-States

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1993/Tollycraft-44-Cockpit-MY-2522454/MD/United-States

43’ers

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/Tollycraft-43-cpmy-2504210/Seattle/WA/United-States

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/Tollycraft-43-Motor-Yacht-2410836/Detroit/MI/United-States

40’ers

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/Tollycraft-40-Sun-Deck-Motor-Yacht-2487565/Racine/WI/United-States

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1972/Tollycraft-40-Tri-Cabin-MY-2293691/San-Diego/CA/United-States

37’ers

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Tollycraft-37-Sedan-2505653/Port-of-Everett-Marina/WA/United-States

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1976/Tollycraft-Convertible-Sedan-2262754/Haverhill/MA/United-States

34’ers

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/Tollycraft-34-Convertible-Sedan-2539060/Anacortes/WA/United-States

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/Tollycraft-Sundeck-2459929/San-Diego/CA/United-States

WooHoo!!!! Thanks Art. I had forgot about Tollys and have been meaning to search them. That 45 in FLL is awfully attractive at $99k but is getting a bit beyond my size range. I want to be able to single hand it. I have had significant experience on a friend's 44CPMY. I always really liked that boat. Straight forward and solid.

And that 34 foot Sedan!!!!.....WOW!!! That is a damn fine boat. I am almost glad it is on the West Coast....or I would be scrambling. I will take a look on YW.

Thanks for the input!!!

Now isn't this fun!!!

Baker said:

Thanks for the input, Caltex. The 1mpg spec was assumming planing speed...one of my criteria. Please tell me what your Hatt burns at 15 knots??...That's rhetorical! I'm pretty sure The Mainship 350/390 never had a 3208... They were mostly equipped with a Cat 3116. Some early models had twin Volvos. A few had Twin Yanmars. And there was the very occasional single Yanmar or And even more rare, a single Cummins. I am a HUGE fan of these boats but just wouldn't consider anything but the twin Yanmars and they are rare. Ultimately, the single/bow thruster set up is, in my opinion, the superior set up. I just don't know if I can find a larger 35ft(ish) boat that can easily cruise in the teens with that set up...and the space I am looking for. Albin did put a 450hp C series single Cummins in their 33+3 fast trawler. Again, they are rare and I would question their ability to push that boat in the teens. I am not saying it wouldn't...it would just be a concern before buying. There is one on YW but it has sold and they have not taken down the listing. The knock on the Albin fast trawler in any configuration is V-drives. Never owned them and not sure if I should be scared of them....but they do complexify(is that a word) the drivetrain and add more load bearing moving parts.

Tell me your Detroits don't smoke on start up in the cold???

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A) I don't drive my boat 15 knots, and it is a heck of a lot different boat than we are discussing.. the point is somewhat tongue in cheek,, half the speed more than twice the boat. 53 Series and 71 series engines can and have driven boats the size you are considering to planing speed at 1MPG. And, yes, love them as much as I do, I'd wave a wand if I could and replace mine with modern QSM11's or John Deeres

1)Nope, sorry, it was indeed a 3208; maybe an outlier, but that is what it was. The Mainship 430 we rented had two 3116's.

2) The Cummins (I THINK a 5.9 but I am not at all sure) in the 34 Pilot pushed that boat into the low teens. I am not understanding your basis for saying a Pilot has more room than the 350/390 (???). I'd have to agree they were really designed to be hull speed type cruisers. You may ask, where did this guy get all this Mainship experience? We belonged to Club Nautique in Alameda for a few years, and at the time the company that owned them was the Mainship dealer. So we ended up renting two different 30 Pilots, the 34, two different 350/390s (one was based down in Oxnard), and the 430. Lots of fond memories of all of them. Also, they had about every Hunter sailboat.

B) Mine do not smoke in the cold weather, I use block heaters. What diesel, un-heated will not smoke on start up in the cold? Mine do (if unheated) for about 15 seconds due to the way fuel is over injected at start up. Detroits being smokey engines is urban (marina) legend. There are a lot of them out there with a lot of hours, not so well maintained. But they are not inherently any smokier than anything else.

<<1)Nope, sorry, it was indeed a 3208; maybe an outlier, but that is what it was. The Mainship 430 we rented had two 3116's.>>

Definitely an outlier!!! I have never seen or heard of one!

<<2) I am not understanding your basis for saying a Pilot has more room than the 350/390 (???).>>

Maybe a miscommunication. Never meant to imply that.

<<B) Detroits being smokey engines is urban (marina) legend. There are a lot of them out there with a lot of hours, not so well maintained.>>

I got the urban marina legend from watching boats with Detroits....in my marina....start up and me wondering where the fire was!!!!...

Art took my next suggestion for Tollycraft. Fine boats and found in abundance on my coast, no idea how plentiful they are in the GoM.

Walt sure posted a nice pair the Saberline ticks off most of your boxes. The lines of the 34 Pilot sure looks nice to me.

Baker said:

That 45 in FLL is awfully attractive at $99k but is getting a bit beyond my size range.

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Look out for that boat. We have questioned BOTH of the TWO listing agents about it and can't get any straight answers about why the engine was rebuilt and why there are smoke stains around it. It has a secret that nobody will reveal.

GonzoF1 said:

Look out for that boat. We have questioned BOTH of the TWO listing agents about it and can't get any straight answers about why the engine was rebuilt and why there are smoke stains around it. It has a secret that nobody will reveal.

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Yeah, I figured there was a story. That is a crazy price for that boat. So Tom and Bess, are your eyes wandering????....

I got the urban marina legend from watching boats with Detroits....in my marina....start up and me wondering where the fire was!!!!...

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Now that is certainly a scientific sampling! I've seen Lehmans, Cummins, Yanmars, MANs, MTUs and Cats smoke heavily at start up, and many of them continued to while underway so should I suppose they all do? Not! There was a comment on here recently about Cummins requiring early rebuilds, I guess because some guy new a couple that did.

The problem with Internet forums is there is so much hearsay, or based on very limited observation, they are really only good for a small piece of the triangulation needed to get to the truth about a particular subject. I've learned a lot from some forums, but only when verified and coupled with verification from other sources that have the bonafides, not because they say so, but by references and direct experience with their work and/or their boats. And, ultimately, my own experience on my boats as in "how'd that work out?"

You've got a cadre of potential candidates lined up now. Time to see for yourself if any make sense for you, have to judge each actual boat on its own merits and how it fits you. As for the engines, don't make any generalizations, if you see a boat you like a sea trial and then a good engine surveyor will tell you if the engine is any good.

John, your familiarity with the boats you're considering far outweigh mine but in your price range and size I would seriously not consider any boat older than say mid 90's or engines with more than 1200 hours. I know these are just arbitrary figures and I know the condition and owner attentiveness is more important, but at your price and size range you can afford a newer boat and newer is always better everything else being equal.

When we were looking 3 years ago, I was impressed with the Mainship 34 Aft cabin. Inside it is about the same in size as my 355 and the one I saw had twin Yanmars. Access to the foredeck is through molded in stairs from the flybridge which makes it much safer and allows for a wider salon, but that design also eliminates the salon forward windows which ultimately reduced it's appeal for me. On the plus side since there are no fwd windows that space is used for storage, a big plus. I didn't choose this boat because I just liked the look of the 355 but the Mainship 34 ACMY was a close contender. I think Mainship also made this version in a 36,37, or 38.
This is probably a good example:
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1995/Mainship-Motoryacht-2544466/Daytona-Beach/FL/United-States

But like the 355/356 your choices are limited in the diesel configuration.

Caltex, I did not mean to get into any extended discussion about a particular brand of engine. It is just part of my criteria in the original post. How bout if I tell you I just have an "emotional issue" with Detroits. And the real beauty of all this is that I have the choice of what I will buy. And there is a very high probability that it won't be Detroit powered. Just like it likely won't be Volvo powered. But you are ultimately correct. There is nothing inherently wrong with those two brands. And if the ultimate boat presented itself powered by Detroits, I would consider it...especially if DDECs.

The guy wondering about Cummins and early rebuilds was me. Again, not something I garnered from the internet(I guess actually it was). I just always see Cummins boats/engines with 1500ish hours on them with one or both rebuilt. That has always caused concern for me. I have since learned why and how it can be prevented. But guess what?....you won't see me buying a boat with "high" time Cummins engines in it because of this.... Just managing risk.

Tim, I am thinking exactly along those lines reference age of boat and time on engines. While potentially arbitrary, you are managing risk. I have looked at those Mainships and you are correct, they have tons of space for their size. I just have a hard time with their utilitarian styling. I have to at least get a little excited when I am approaching the boat in the dinghy or looking at it dockside. Mainship kinda lost their way styling wise in the early and mid 90s.... I know Carvers aren't style queens either but the 355/6 have a decent look to them. They at least look like a boat!!!

I just always see Cummins boats/engines with 1500ish hours on them with one or both rebuilt. That has always caused concern for me. I have since learned why and how it can be prevented.

The time on the engine is of far less concern than the level of maint.

Both in use and out of use is usually covered in Da Book.

Few engines maintained by Da Book fail early.