Passagemaking question???

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GalaxyGirl

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Hello all,
For several months I have been researching and flipping through Yachtworld trying to figure out what boat I need and will possibly purchase this Spring. I think that I may have narrowed it down. I need a comfortable liveaboard with 4 or 5 staterooms (kids). I would like to be at 65' as to be manageable. I definitely need a boat that I can one day cross oceans in. I do not want to upgrade later when my kids are off to college and I'm ready to travel the world. I need something affordable. I think that a 65' Hat or a 66' Choey Lee might be the way to go for me.

My question is: What exactly makes a boat a LRC. I noticed that the LRC's have a greater fuel capacity and water capacity. Is that it?

Also, can I refit a larger tank in a motor yacht to make it long range?

Does one actually need a "LRC" for world travel or is the larger holding tank just a convenience while purchasingand storing fuel at a good price?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
 
You don't mention budget, but if there isn't one get yourself a Nordhavn and be done with it.

But a much more important question than "what's a capable, long-range, ocean-crossing boat?" is how much do you know about boating? Any boating.

Have you been boating in smaller boats for years and you're ready to move up to a bigger one? Do you understand weather and currents and navigation and all the stuff the folks on this forum spend forever arguing about? Do you know how to maneuver a cruising boat when the wind's blowing and the current's going the wrong way?

Or, is this big-boat, passagemaking thing something that sounds intriguing and you're trying to figure out how to get into it but you don't have much of a boating background?

It's very hard to offer any meaningful suggestions about what an ideal boat might be without knowing the capabilities and experience of the person asking the question.
 
Galaxygirl, you have cooked up a tall order. What makes a long range cruiser? Since you are talking about crossing oceans, it seams like you are really talking about a passagemaker. A 65' Hatteras would probably fit your size requirements, but probably not be the boat for world travel. I would think about a 65' Nordhavn for what you described. You have not mentioned budget, so that can be a big factor. At any rate getting a deal done by spring would be very fast.

Your post is one the more interesting. Please let us know your progress.
 
Marin,
Thanks for the reply.
To answer your qestion. I am a total newbie. My kids are still in gradeschool so I figure that I can start with hiring a captain, working my way up to short trips, then longer, then maybe hire a captain again for a very long trip until one day after several years of practice I will be ready for ocean crossing. I'm in absolutely no rush and realize that I have tons to learn. I want to use the boat as a liveaboard for now, but I don't want to have to sell and upgrade later.
I wish that I had a Nordhaven budget, but unfortunately not, unless I get lucky and hit the lottery, which would be very lucky, considering I dont play :)
I would like to spend under 400k.
 
GG
With that budget I think you should reduce the number of staterooms. Although you didn't say how many kids either. Landside a bedroom for each kid is achievable, but on the water one for the boys and one for the girls, one for parents is realistic.

Then have a few different areas for everyone to utilize so you are not always in close proximity to each other: a good layout will be paramount for a family liveaboard. A raised pilothouse boat (Ocean Alexander such as mine, or a De Fever, Fleming among others) will do this for you, although only some have third staterooms - depended on what the original owner wanted. Bear in mind these semi-displacement hulls are primarily coastal cruisers.

You might be better off with a displacement single engine boat such as one of the big Kadey Krogens or a Selene.

For your budget (assuming some is allocated for R&M) it will likely be an older boat, so expect to have some significant repairs and upgrades.

Any raised PH boats in the 48-60 ft range are worth checking out - shortlist those nearby and take a look at them as many different ones as you can. Given it's going to be some time before your extended cruising, you can probably spread the R&M out over some years, and if you have the skills as well as the time to do it, you will save 50% of the cost of having a yard do it for you.

Good luck, keep us posted!
 
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Okay, well, 400k is, in my opinion, not going to get you the kind of boat your stated objectives indicate you need. Or if it does it will be in such unreliable condition it would be questionable if it could get across the harbor let along an ocean without having a hell of a lot of money poured into it to bring it up to snuff.

Combining your stated budget and your current lack of experience, I would suggest you are not going about this in the smartest way. Since you don't want to do the long trip thing until the kids are grown and gone it's not like you're up against the clock here.

So I'm thinking that the smart thing to do is put the long-range, big boat thing on the back burner and get a smaller coastal cruising boat that will accommodate the people you need to accommodate but will not eat up your $400k budget plus another $400k to get the boat where it needs to be for true long range voyaging.

Spend $200k-$250k for a boat that you can start using and learning with on a local basis. I don't know where you are located but if it's the east coast there is the ICW and all its associated waterways that from what I can tell is an ideal environment to start figuring out what this boating thing is all about. If you're in the Pacific Northwest the inside waters of Puget Sound, lower BC, and the Inside Passage provide a fabulous environment for boating.

Boating, perhaps more than anything else including aviation, is a never-ending expense. Buying the boat is actually the easy part, at least financially. After that, the ownership costs just keep coming and some of them can be pretty big whacks to the wallet.

I grew up in Hawaii and I've checked the box next to open ocean boating. Not long range boating by any means. But forty miles off the north coast of Oahu is the same as 400 miles off the north coast of Oahu in terms of what you encounter out there. And what I learned is that you need a hell of a good boat, and a hell of a lot of experience to carry it off successfully.

Now I'm "coastal cruising" and it offers every bit the interest, challenge, and reward of being out on the open ocean. In fact for me, much, much more. So don't make the mistake that "big water" cruising is where it's at and the coastal stuff is for pansies.

Considering where you're at on this journey right now, which is right at the first step of it, something that might make the most sense as a first step is to charter a boat for a weekend or a week. You can charter one with a skipper to keep you out of trouble and it will become your first lesson, as well as helping you determine if you really will like this sort of thing.

But I'm a big believer in learning to walk before you can run. It's all fun and everything you learn along the way will help build a solid foundation that will support you if you carry on into the big water, long distance thing. And the nice thing about boats and boating is that the "walking" is just as fun and rewarding as the "running."
 

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Didn't this same poster give this subject a good run a year or so ago? Maybe it was on Yacht Forums ----------- :confused:
 
There are older long range boats/trawler that might fit what you are looking for,1990 and ptior. To cross an ocean the boat must have the stability, fuel capacity, fuel efficient e.gine, and be equipped. There are more commercial boats than pleasure boats, so also look a commercial boats. I know of several older off brand boat/trawler. Many of the boats are built by yards that build commercial boats.

I think it was here, buts its a hell of a lot better than anchors and/or single vrs. twin.
 
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It does sound familiar although I don't remember it as being that long ago. But there are a lot of people out there who harbor this sort of dream.
 
Sunchaser,
I'm with you this has appeared before and got a good airing.
But with that in mind i am with marin.
don't chase the big boat just yet, go ccoastal cruising on the weekends and on holidays. get a good boat, possibly something in the 48/50 ft range raised pilot house with good fuel capacity and smaller engines (get used to going at 8 knots)
Get a skiipper if need be but do a course on boat handling and basic navigation, learn engine and mechanical basic skills, you will need these offshore.
Start to plan and learn and then when you are ready you will know what boat is required and what you want.
Don't get led up the path for a semi planing hull like a Fleming etc for off shore cruising, lovely boats but wrong for the job.
Keep on learning.
maybe it was on Yacht Forum !!!
Cheers
Benn
 
I also recall seeing a similar thread somewhere from GalaxyGirl, maybe Cruiser's Forum. I will go with Marin on this one. Our requirements were close to the same, although for obvious reasons I would recommend a Krogen rather than the Nordhavn! I have spent most of my life on or around the water and knew exactly what I wanted. The fact of the matter is, if you want a boat that is trans-oceanic capable, and in good condition, you need to be prepared to spend at least low 7 figures. You can find some lder capable boats in the $600K range, but generally you will have to spend a substantial amount upgrading them.

But the other fact of the matter is-how many crossings are you liable to make, really? We know we will probably make one round-trip across the Atlantic and that will pretty much be it. So, could we have done with less? Probably so, we could ship anything across if we wanted. Think hard about what you really, really want to accomplish and get the boat that fits.
 
Click on any posters name, click on "find More post..."

Kind of strange the same person would came back not even referencing the past advice.....
 
Most marine motorists will use some of the many print sources to plan a passage in the most modest weather and times of the year.

The old sailors avoided the :Horse Latitudes" , but for a power boat its perfect.

The problem always is what if the weather guesser fails and you end up in a modest 50-60K storm .

SCANTLINGS , how strong the basic boat , and all the parts are , and how well they are fitted together is the key.

Simply go visit any of the local fish boats that go out and STAY out to work.

Compared to most yacht "passagemakers" you will find vastly heavier construction , smaller windows and a much much lower vessel profile.

The easiest is to look at the fwd facing or PH glass.

If its 3/4 or better its for the ocean ,,, 1/4 and huge in area , you decide what a comber climbing on board will do for your day.
 
sunchaser said:
Didn't this same poster give this subject a good run a year or so ago? Maybe it was on Yacht Forums ----------- :confused:
Click to expand...

No, actually, it was a different question that I gave a run. I was trying to figure out, over, the summer I think, whether to get a sailboat, trawler or both. I was also trying to figure out what size I would need and the ins and outs of living marina side for a while. I have gotten past most of that stuff. Now I am fine tuning some of my research, as the time goes near, to how much range I need in the long run.
 
bluebyu said:
Click on any posters name, click on "find More post..."

Kind of strange the same person would came back not even referencing the past advice.....
Click to expand...

Again, with all due respect, this is a different question.
I figured that I wouldn't have to reference, because most active posters would remember me anyhow and those that don't or weren't around, can always view past posts if they choose.

and, by the way, I took all of the advice that I was given then on forums. I chucked my idea of 2 boats and decided to go with 1 trawler. I also downsized significantly from 90' to 65' as a direct influence of good advice that I was given on forums.

Now I am trying to figure out the range thing. Last night, I didn't even realize that it was possible to "ship your ship" across the ocean. I'm actually not that keen on making a long dangerous journey like that at all, but I LOVE the idea of one day, having the option of exploring other far away places in my boat. So this was a great discovery for me. This is why I appreciate the feedback that I get on forums, because folks open your eyes to ideas and possibilities that you had no clue existed. That's why in my very first post on this thread I made it clear that I have been researching boats for a while now and trying to narrow it down.
 
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The Hatteras LRC hulls are full displacement, and they were equipped either 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder Detroit 2 strokes. Big beefy hulls, large fuel capacity...but as FF commented...not sure how sturdy the deckhouse would be in a blue water, nasty weather scenario. There's an LRC web site...might want to check there. I'd think a '58 would meet your space objectives. I'd want stabilizers. Much more "shippy" boat than a Cheoy Lee. A '65 Hatteras LRC is a surprisingly big boat.
 
GG

Assuming your offshore cruising dream to far away places is real and not fantasy:
  • An old LRC or Cheoy Lee is not your best bet for foreign travel. You will still have big weather/poor forecasts to deal with and neither of these vessels are suitable for these conditions except in the hands of a pro. Most of these vessels have been kept in NA with docking in mind and not blue water cruising. The costs to get them ocean ready would be very high.
  • Outside NA power is different so the vessel will need to capable for dual cycle and voltage.
  • Very few "trawlers" (low fuel burn and lots of fuel capacity) at 60' -70' have been designed and built in quantity in the past 20 years to be blue water capable. For space and brand look at Nordhavn, Cape Horn, Outer Reef - a few others. For sure look for an Ocean Rated vessel. Locate and pick the brain of an owner of one of these vessels.
  • Join the Nordhavn Dreamers group
  • Look for a Nordhavn 62' 4 stateroom model. Most are in very good shape as the owners usually take care of their vessels.
  • Shipping a vessel to a far way place does not allow you to get past seamaship skills or having a capable boat. Put this notion in the back burner if you or your vessel cannot pass muster.
 
Hatteras LRCs have circumnavigated and a few more have crossed the Atlantic and back. Frankly, they are more robust boats than your typical Nordhavn. They will offer much more usable living space for a family. But realize that maintenance and up keep are a function of age and condition, not the purchase price of the boat.

But all that is tertiary at this point. Before you buy a boat, charter a variety of, in your case, captained boats. See how you like the life style. Learn how to boat. Find out what features and ergonomics are important to you and your family. This will also be much cheaper than owning while you are still working and only boating part time. It will also vastly lower the odds of making a very expensive mistake in boat selection, including the distinct possibility you might not like cruising Then, In my opinion, buy a boat that fits your needs now, not for some "possibly maybe someday I hope, I think" scenario.
 
caltexflanc said:
Hatteras LRCs have circumnavigated and a few more have crossed the Atlantic and back. Frankly, they are more robust boats than your typical Nordhavn. QUOTE]

Caltexflan, please note I said "In the hands of a pro." GG is hardly that. I'd not recommend to a novice that he cross the world's oceans in a old flushdeck LRC vs a newer and well tested proven passagemaker. I own a DF that could do the Atlantic too, but I'd much prefer a Rated proven blue water vessel.

I take it you have cruised on a typical (whatever that is) Nordhavn and viewed their construction and stability calculations in detail? In what way is an LRC more robust than say a typical 57' Nordhavn, just name me one and I'll demur.
Click to expand...
 
sunchaser said:
caltexflanc said:
Hatteras LRCs have circumnavigated and a few more have crossed the Atlantic and back. Frankly, they are more robust boats than your typical Nordhavn. QUOTE]

Caltexflan, please note I said "In the hands of a pro." GG is hardly that. I'd not recommend to a novice that he cross the world's oceans in a old flushdeck LRC vs a newer and well tested proven passagemaker. I own a DF that could do the Atlantic too, but I'd much prefer a Rated proven blue water vessel.

I take it you have cruised on a typical (whatever that is) Nordhavn and viewed their construction and stability calculations in detail? In what way is an LRC more robust than say a typical 57' Nordhavn, just name me one and I'll demur.
Click to expand...

First, the LRCs are proven blue water passage makers. Re-read my post. It's only been what, 35 years or so of proving that? I would submit that hull scantlings, thickness, integrity, electrical, engine room design (especially that), general systems layout and quality of components all rival or exceed that of a Nordhavn. The 57 is my favorite Nordhavn by the way, I once thought the 62 would be until I spent time on one and debriefed the captain who had brought it over from Malta, to New York and thence Savannah. The 55 was very disappointing as well. Certainly all of this is arguable and laced with personal opinion and preferences.

I once harbored dreams almost identical to the OP's. But after doing a lot of cruising via charter, with my wife, on a variety of boats, we learned cross ocean passage making was not of interest to us, nor were the kind of boats you needed to that well. That's why I ended up with a "motor yacht" and not an LRC, Nordhavn or Krogen. This boat has been perfect for us, coastal cruising the eastern seaboard and environs for the past 5 1/2 years, living aboard full time very comfortably.

There is a guy on the Hatteras Owners Forum that has an absolutely drop dead gorgeous 58 LRC for sale after only a few years of ownership and a very open check book. He too once had similar dreams. He found that family life and work life were cutting into the ability to use the boat; the realities of their life stage finally sunk in.
Click to expand...
 
...I once harbored dreams almost identical to the OP's. But after doing a lot of cruising via charter, with my wife, on a variety of boats, we learned cross ocean passage making was not of interest to us, nor were the kind of boats you needed to that well. ...There is a guy on the Hatteras Owners Forum that has an absolutely drop dead gorgeous 58 LRC for sale after only a few years of ownership and a very open check book. He too once had similar dreams. He found that family life and work life were cutting into the ability to use the boat; the realities of their life stage finally sunk in.
Click to expand...

Lena and I hear this alot. I would guess that 99% of the boats designed for and purchased to cross oceans never do. It's a wonderful dream but a tremendous undertaking and commitment. You can't bail out half way across.
 
"I would guess that 99% of the boats designed for and purchased to cross oceans never do. It's a wonderful dream but a tremendous undertaking and commitment."

Perhaps ,

Sadly ,I think the comment is usually made in ignorance of the actual requirements , the vessels limitations , the owners commitment in time and currency as well as the skill sets that need to be obtained.

A "Real Passage maker" Sounds good at the bar tho.:)
 
GalaxyGirl said:
Again, with all due respect, this is a different question.
I figured that I wouldn't have to reference, because most active posters would remember me anyhow and those that don't or weren't around, can always view past posts if they choose.

and, by the way, I took all of the advice that I was given then on forums. I chucked my idea of 2 boats and decided to go with 1 trawler. I also downsized significantly from 90' to 65' as a direct influence of good advice that I was given on forums.

Now I am trying to figure out the range thing. Last night, I didn't even realize that it was possible to "ship your ship" across the ocean. I'm actually not that keen on making a long dangerous journey like that at all, but I LOVE the idea of one day, having the option of exploring other far away places in my boat. So this was a great discovery for me. This is why I appreciate the feedback that I get on forums, because folks open your eyes to ideas and possibilities that you had no clue existed. That's why in my very first post on this thread I made it clear that I have been researching boats for a while now and trying to narrow it down.
Click to expand...

Good to hear from you and that you been doing some research. Did you go to marinas and yards to see what size of moorage is and lifts available. In the PNW I wouls not go of 60 ft and/or or 50 tons as moorage and lifts are very limited. there are boat/trawler in the 50 to 60 ft that have 3+ staterooms, 2 baths, 400+ gallon water tanks, 1000+ gallon fuel, which have the range and stability for coastal ocean cruising. However, not many boats, even Nordhavn, Krogan, Selen, seahorse really are designed for crossing an ocean. Sure a few have done, but there are other more boats designed and more capable, but they also cost more, or they a commercial grade. The only Nordhavn that really has a good proven record is their original 62 ft explorer trawler.

If we want to cross and ocean we would probable ship the Eagle, even though a few have crossed ocean. The reason is it would cost about as much to refit the Eagle as it would to ship her, and the would be easier on the boat and us. However, there is thousand of miles of coastal cruising before we would consider that. First we are heading up to Alaska, then down the coast to Mexico and maybe even further?

Anyway for the biggest bang for the buck I would still look at off brands, and or commercial conversions. The 3 magazine I would recommend looking at are, Show boat, Yachting, and Passagemaker they have boats over 50+ ft, and not just the Nordhavn, Selen and Krogen . After you have looked and gone on enough boats/trawler you will know hat fit your needs, but it may take years.

My wife and I have decided to sell/liquidate everything, have not ties to land, and/or be moble off the radar. My wife does want to buy a land yatch to crusie the Unisted States as we cruise the coast land, but warmer climates. Let us know if we can be of further help?
 
If you then decide to ship your vessel accross the big ponds then it opens up a lot more boats for inspection especially some of the better semi displacement boats such as the Flemings, Ocean Alexanders etc.
I must admit I still like the original Nordhavn 62' expedition boat and the older ones are comming down in price and most are still in pristine condition.
Cheers
Benn
 
You're not going to spend that much time crossing oceans. The only reason you do that is to go coastal cruising somewhere else. A good weather router is more important than a good passagemaker.
 
Keith,
That is exactly right.
If you read my post in Cruising Down Under "Long Distance Cruising" Jim and his wife on Nordlys did a round the world cruise lasting 5 years in what is classed here in Aus as a costal cruiser.
One just has to be pretty careful , but also have a well found vessel.
And also the will to do it.
Cheers
Benn
 
Keith said:
You're not going to spend that much time crossing oceans. The only reason you do that is to go coastal cruising somewhere else. A good weather router is more important than a good passagemaker.
Click to expand...

How true that is. This New Year week, my wife and I finally got to take our boat truly coastal. that is, instead of just cruising around the Moreton Bay here with its myriad of channels and islands, we went out the seaway at the southern end, and travelled up the outside of the encircling string of islands, and in again around cape Moreton at the top. Fortunately, we struck a good, albeit brief, weather window. This trip was only ~ 120nm, yet after we did it, we looked at each other and said, "well, it was a good box to tick, but doubt we'll do it again". Because, although nice to be out of the deep blue, there was not much to look at, we saw less sea life than we do inside the bay, and the tedious drone of the engine was tiresome. It was so nice to get to an anchorage and switch off. That is of course the bonus of sail - until the wind comes up, that is....
So, yes, exploring bays and rivers and islands, and finding nice anchorages is what it's all about, and you don't find them out in the open ocean.
 
It's all so nice to dream of life on the water (we did and we did), but so often we forget about the overhead and I don't mean weather. If your boat can cross oceans, but doesn't, you're in for a heavy burden. The same goes for size...you pay for that space every day, even if you never use it.

We've been there and back and you've probably seen it before, but I have to say it again:
One More Time Around: Sailboat or Trawler
 
Jeff,
I think you offer more common sense than most people are prepared to absorb. I sure don't have the answers but I have been really influenced by real life realities. In the early 2000's, I I executed my dream cruise of taking my boat around Lake Michigan. My boat then was a 25' 1973 F25 Trojan cruiser with a repowered 351 ci Ford inboard of 250 HP. I installed the engine my self and was capable fixing of any failure short of tranny failure, or catastrophic engine falure. I towed a 12' inflatable with a 25HP motor 'just in case. The cruise consisted of me trailing my 10' overwide to Morris IL and dropping the whole thing into the Illinois River to start' I was cruising with my wife and 10 yr old son. The trip went exactly as planned except I had to scale back my destinations to align to real world weather conditions. I realized at the point I pulled into Frankfort Michigan after a very rough day from S. Manitou Island to Frankfort that people really dont do stuff. When people noticed my calling port of Bettendorf Iowa, they asked how did you get here? I heard 'You crossed the lake'? You are doing what? You passed Point Betsy Today? I realized that boaters dream but seldom execute. These people hadn't been 25 miles offshore in their life. And, impressively had far bigger, more capable boats than mine. It is the people that go and experience, particularly on a budget that are My heros. Its not the budget or grand plans that make the experience it actually doing it.
Jeff you seem like I guy I would love to have a deep conversation over a beer about the boat experience. I had the opportunity to visit Spartanburg this fall to visit a supplier, Spartenburg Steel Products. You were off to Lake Powell, some day we need to visit,
 
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