FREAK WAVE (BBC Doc)
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Interesting program. I watched all five segments of the series and was struck by a couple of things.....
--In the second of the series where they were studying waves off the southern tip of Africa they determined that the large waves were generated when the current ran in the opposite direction of the wind and main current body.
That's exactly what happens in places like the Columbia Bar at the mouth of the Columbia River. When there is a strong flood tide and strong storm winds opposed by a strong outflow from the river, that's when the currents and waves are the most dangerous.
--The second thing I wondered about came from the fifth segment where they were talking about how large waves form in the deep ocean in the North Sea. That made me wonder if similar things happen to waves in deep freshwater lakes like Lake Superior, Lake Huron and Lake Michigan.
Could the same set of circumstances that creates the freak waves in the ocean cause large waves in these bodies of water?
Lake Superior 82,000 sq km, 31,698 sq miles in size, is the largest fresh water lake in the world. It is about 350 miles (565 km) long and 160 miles (257 km) at its widest point. The deepest point is 1,332 ft, while the average depth is 500 ft.
Lake Michigan 57,800 sq km, 22,316 sq miles in size, is the largest freshwater lake (totally within) the United States. It is 307 miles (494 km) long and 118 miles (190 km) at its widest point. The deepest point is 925 ft, while the average depth is 279 ft.
Lake Huron 59,600 sq km, 23,011 sq miles in size, is 206 miles (332 km) long and 183 miles (295 km) at its widest point. The deepest point is 750 ft, while the average depth is 195 ft.
I wonder if anyone has tried to transfer the data from the oceans to the lakes.
Thanks for the link to the videos.
--In the second of the series where they were studying waves off the southern tip of Africa they determined that the large waves were generated when the current ran in the opposite direction of the wind and main current body.
That's exactly what happens in places like the Columbia Bar at the mouth of the Columbia River. When there is a strong flood tide and strong storm winds opposed by a strong outflow from the river, that's when the currents and waves are the most dangerous.
--The second thing I wondered about came from the fifth segment where they were talking about how large waves form in the deep ocean in the North Sea. That made me wonder if similar things happen to waves in deep freshwater lakes like Lake Superior, Lake Huron and Lake Michigan.
Could the same set of circumstances that creates the freak waves in the ocean cause large waves in these bodies of water?
Lake Superior 82,000 sq km, 31,698 sq miles in size, is the largest fresh water lake in the world. It is about 350 miles (565 km) long and 160 miles (257 km) at its widest point. The deepest point is 1,332 ft, while the average depth is 500 ft.
Lake Michigan 57,800 sq km, 22,316 sq miles in size, is the largest freshwater lake (totally within) the United States. It is 307 miles (494 km) long and 118 miles (190 km) at its widest point. The deepest point is 925 ft, while the average depth is 279 ft.
Lake Huron 59,600 sq km, 23,011 sq miles in size, is 206 miles (332 km) long and 183 miles (295 km) at its widest point. The deepest point is 750 ft, while the average depth is 195 ft.
I wonder if anyone has tried to transfer the data from the oceans to the lakes.
Thanks for the link to the videos.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
The same wind against current produces waves effect occurs on the east coast in the Gulf Stream. If there is ANY north aspect to the wind AT ALL you don't go out! Meaning WNW through ENE.
I have heard one theory that suggested a rogue wave sank the Edmund Fitzgerald in Lake Superior.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Fitzgerald
The same wind against current produces waves effect occurs on the east coast in the Gulf Stream. If there is ANY north aspect to the wind AT ALL you don't go out! Meaning WNW through ENE.
I have heard one theory that suggested a rogue wave sank the Edmund Fitzgerald in Lake Superior.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Fitzgerald
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Cyclone
Senior Member
Great Lakes you bet. Fitzgerald was the latest. Check out the storm November 1913, 235 sailors lost, 8 ships down on Huron, 2 on Superior with no survivors. Granted perhaps vessels were not as sophisticated as they are today, but Lake Huron, Michigan, Superior can develop 3 to 10 metre seas which are close together. Think heading north out of St Clair River on to the lake with a NW gale wind blowing over a fetch of couple of hundered miles. Lakers can tell you stories which will make your skin crawl.
Summer time is somewhat different, but you must always be on the look-out for weather issues which generate terrible wave action most of which is based on wind fighting current.
A number of neophite pleasure boaters, loopers in perticular have had nasty experiences on the Lakes especally Michigan which offers poor harbour entrances. In some case you are running an inlet especially along the east shore. Another is running up Huron not realizing just how shallow the east shore is. A lot like the New Jersey shore. You must stay beyond at least five off shore and then if you must run for shelter you have a fight into river mouths. Not nice.
A great topic and one we should all take notice of. Bill.
Summer time is somewhat different, but you must always be on the look-out for weather issues which generate terrible wave action most of which is based on wind fighting current.
A number of neophite pleasure boaters, loopers in perticular have had nasty experiences on the Lakes especally Michigan which offers poor harbour entrances. In some case you are running an inlet especially along the east shore. Another is running up Huron not realizing just how shallow the east shore is. A lot like the New Jersey shore. You must stay beyond at least five off shore and then if you must run for shelter you have a fight into river mouths. Not nice.
A great topic and one we should all take notice of. Bill.
bfloyd4445
Guru
a strong out going tide with high river flow and a westerly wind makes a nasty bar at several Oregon bars.
I'm wondering if those rouge waves aren't associated with the continental shelf or sea mounts?
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
If one accepts the Peregrine soliton hypothesis it stands that rogue waves can appear in ANY body of fluid, water included due to the double spatio-temporal localization.
If one accepts the Peregrine soliton hypothesis it stands that rogue waves can appear in ANY body of fluid, water included due to the double spatio-temporal localization.
bfloyd4445
Guru
No, i think the Buteo jamaicensis effect is more appropriate. It says that the wave height is directly proportional to its direction of travel and the actual vertical and horizontal distance from your position.
OP
OP
MurrayM
Guru
You guys are too obtuse! This fella makes sense;
TEDxCaltech - Eric Heller - Freak Waves: a Visual Pathway to Discovery - YouTube
TEDxCaltech - Eric Heller - Freak Waves: a Visual Pathway to Discovery - YouTube
bfloyd4445
Guru
Does he? He sounded to me like a guy making a presentation in order to justify his salary. I did learn from him, his pictures were very nice and he did purpose a new theory as to the origin of rouge waves. The trouble is as far as i know there are no semi conductors, jetties or lens in the middle of the ocean to create the conditions for the formation of a wave. Need less talk, pretty pictures, and more data to answer this question
JD
Guru
One theory of the Fitzgerald sinking was that she hit the bottom after going up a very large wave, 30 - 40'. When she struck the bottom it broke her back and that is why she went down so fast.
OP
OP
MurrayM
Guru
It seems plausible to have wave sets converging from two or more directions being refracted by a gyre, or a 'lens' of current changes, which then concentrates whatever combined (freak) waves that form. That's the bit that made sense to me.
Previously I had always imagined wave sets which combined but did not vary in their direction.
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bfloyd4445
Guru
What you describe we see examples on a small scall f all the time at the entrance to bays where current and waves intersect from diferent directions. When a kid i used to call this troubled water cause it didnt seem to know what to do. If this were the case then these waves would be of short duration and would vanish as fast as they appear.
Your description of same direction different speed waves adding i don''t think works. I think what happens is one wave goes through the other increasing the mass but the height would be close to the same. So you may see every sixth wave or so one with much more volume than the rest. If the angle of attack is diferent for each wave then when they collide they would tend to add for greater height and mass.
just my 2 cents worth i am a dummy on this subject my training was in electrical, environmental engineering and law
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. 45. Peregrine soliton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Read the link and you may become less of a "dummy" on the subject. "Main Properties" should give you a better understanding.
Mr. 45. Peregrine soliton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Read the link and you may become less of a "dummy" on the subject. "Main Properties" should give you a better understanding.
bfloyd4445
Guru
i read soliton as solution. Thank you for getting me on track
bfloyd4445
Guru
wouldnt the jetties, entrance, sea bottom act as a lens? I'm thinking of a bay with a narrow entrance
OP
OP
MurrayM
Guru
Yes, but the waves would be from one direction, and would release their energy along the shore.
Heller's point was that, rarely, current conditions or an ocean gyre could focus the energy of several large wave sets into an area of ocean during a storm. Normally these wave sets would cross each other as they normally do, but under these conditions their energy would be concentrated, making freak waves possible.
That's the way I'm reading it...
bfloyd4445
Guru
and that is why i thought of a narrow bay entrance with the jetties which would focus this energy. No open coast line here to dissapate the energy The wave sets approaching from slightley different directions focused by the jetties and lifted by the out going current.
OP
OP
MurrayM
Guru
Oh, now I get what you mean...that would be jumpy for sure!
There is a tear drop shaped island here where the waves cross after being bent by the shoreline. After passing the island they cross at about a 30 degree angle, then bounce off a cliff on the mainland about a mile away which makes for 4 sets of waves all crossing at once. They aren't really waves after that...they just jump into existence, throw their tops away in an explosion of spray, then disappear. Crazy!
Scale our scenarios up to open ocean size and conditions, and it paints an ugly picture.
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weebobby
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Re "Edmund Fitzgerald'
To this day I still remember how terrified I was as a young 3rd mate aboard a lake freighter similar to the "Edmund Fitzgerald'
We were crossing the Gulf of St Lawrence en route to Pointe Noire , Quebec to load iron ore for Stelco in Hamilton. We were in a force 10 gale and, looking aft from the pilothouse along the 650 length of the vessel, you could clearly see the whole ship flexing up and down many, many feet as each wave passed under the keel
These ships are designed to allow some amount of flexibility but it seems very likely to me that the Fitzgerald eventually first broke her back in similar conditions and then sunk.
Bob
To this day I still remember how terrified I was as a young 3rd mate aboard a lake freighter similar to the "Edmund Fitzgerald'
We were crossing the Gulf of St Lawrence en route to Pointe Noire , Quebec to load iron ore for Stelco in Hamilton. We were in a force 10 gale and, looking aft from the pilothouse along the 650 length of the vessel, you could clearly see the whole ship flexing up and down many, many feet as each wave passed under the keel
These ships are designed to allow some amount of flexibility but it seems very likely to me that the Fitzgerald eventually first broke her back in similar conditions and then sunk.
Bob
bfloyd4445
Guru
yep, you got it. I wish i had some pix of this phenomenon but i don't. Sometimes if the wind and currents are right it is very nasty.
Cyclone
Senior Member
Many issues have arisen with the Fitzgerald, one that seems to have some real truth is that she actually drove herself into a wave as the positive bow floatation was insufficient to bring the bow up and under propulsion drove herself to the bottom.
Another interesting wave fact concerns the QE 2. A couple of years ago this vessel was crossing the Atlantic and experienced a wave which broke a bridge window which was some 30 or 40 feet or more above the water. That alone is enough to keep a sailor at home.
Another wave hit a the weather ship Vancouver or Quadra around 1968 or 69, on Station Papa, which is 250 nuatical off BC. Wave action hit vessel with such force that it split the bulk head which ran from the wheel house to the keel.
Wave action is a killer as we all know and vessels which are out there day after day suffer terrible unseen damage. Given the issues one must accept some risk, but that risk, especially with the now over sized vessels has to be viewed in a different light. I applaude the Chinese for no allowing the VLBC to deliver iron to its ports/ We should ban similar vessels, oil, container or bulk, using our ports. Bill.
Another interesting wave fact concerns the QE 2. A couple of years ago this vessel was crossing the Atlantic and experienced a wave which broke a bridge window which was some 30 or 40 feet or more above the water. That alone is enough to keep a sailor at home.
Another wave hit a the weather ship Vancouver or Quadra around 1968 or 69, on Station Papa, which is 250 nuatical off BC. Wave action hit vessel with such force that it split the bulk head which ran from the wheel house to the keel.
Wave action is a killer as we all know and vessels which are out there day after day suffer terrible unseen damage. Given the issues one must accept some risk, but that risk, especially with the now over sized vessels has to be viewed in a different light. I applaude the Chinese for no allowing the VLBC to deliver iron to its ports/ We should ban similar vessels, oil, container or bulk, using our ports. Bill.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. Cyclone. VLBC?
Mr. Cyclone. VLBC?
bfloyd4445
Guru
I agree. Limits should be placed upon vessel size.
bfloyd4445
Guru
anyone know the name of this vessel so i can look it up?
Cyclone
Senior Member
Vale the owner, check out www.bulk-solids-handling.com. Great pictures and full details. As well stevesmaritime.com/bulk.html has more data.
bfloyd4445
Guru
thanks
