COI for 50ft Willard

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Tim Gover

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Messages
17
Location
USA
Vessel Name
no name yet
Vessel Make
Willard 50 ft ex Navy utility
Has anyone taken an ex Navy Willard (33 ,40 or 50 footer)
and had it restored to its original look and function and then had it certified to carry passengers?
 
If you do a six pack the requirements are not too bad, but the boat still has to be inspected and pass. Also requires a Captain license which is no big deal as you can take a course the guarantees you to pass. However the experience required may be the kicker. I had the Eagle inspect which passed, took the course passed the written exam, but did not have the experience required, and being a confirmed dock queen probable would not. Since the Willards where built in the US the requirements for more than a six pack is less than foreign made boats, but as you move up in the number so due the requirements.

Before you spend too much time and money investigate the market/customer base. We were looking at the gay/lesbian community which is big in Seattle, charity/special cruises, and special charters/stuff off the boat. Every week in the summer there is some sort of boat rendezvous/show.

Also if you are going to spend a lot of money, you might want to take out a business license then you can open commercial/whole sale accounts. We bought the Eagle as a commercial charter, and took out a business license, so all the improvements where bought whole sale. I still have a commercial/wholesale account with Fisheries and West Marine. So even if you do not actually charter, which we never did its still might be worth it for the discounts.
 
I surveyed a Willard 1989 40 ft for a pre purchase survey. The boat was set up as original and used for scientific study of walrus on round island in Alaska.
I don't understand the question.
Is this something you are going to do?

I can't for see any issues with the cert.
Fine boats built like tanks.
The one I looked at was a captains launch.

Sd
 
Ex navy

Thank you,I am all set up and already in business with a 1944 USNavy YP .Capt license and all.I am trying to expand with this 50ft 1985 Navy launch. Seeing if anyone out there that may have done the same with their Willard and weather or not they faced any issues.Yes the boat is solid however the USCG will require all upto date wiring etc. or maybe the boat being so well built will pass all requirements as is.(that would be nice)
 
I would think you need to wory about the requirements for a certification.

I don't think the Willard will need more than the requirements for light and safty as nav lights and the proper number of life jackets and of course the Y valve. Fire extinguishers and the like.

As long as she is seaworthy and doesn't leak fluids into the water.
You should be good to go.

I have never applied for one so it is just a guess.

Good luck

SD
 
There is a workaround if the boat is not certified. You can do a bareboat charter and they can hire you back as the captain.
 
Why guess about this sort of stuff?

46CFR115 and 116 might shine some light on the subject.
 
They are enforceable regulations. Not an alphabet soup of non-enforcable suggestions.
 
COI for existing US built, SubChapter T

Wow, Tim, you may be sorry you asked this question here -- there is some pretty bad advice above! As a licensed Master, I'm sure you understand more about the regs for Subchapter T small passenger vessels than most of those who weighed in.

Some clarifications:

  1. You cannot bareboat charter a boat and then hire yourself back as captain -- that used to be the case some years ago, but it is expressly prohibited now.
  2. Just because a boat is well built doesn't mean it will be no problem getting certified. You still have to a.) Prove it (with plans, tests, and calculations), and b.) meet the letter of all requirements, not just be good marine practice. (Are the handrails 39.5" high? No, they're only 39"? You have to raise them! Do you have 32" wide exit doors? Of course not -- better get the sawsall out!)
  3. The Subchapter T construction and arrangement regulations apply to all boats carrying more than 6 passengers for hire (or more than 12 if the boat is over 100 Gross Tons (domestic)). Generally the boat must be US built though, which means Willards are certainly eligible.
Bottom line is that you need to jump through quite a few hoops to get any boat certified -- new or used. The Coast Guard needs to confirm that the hull is built to a classification standard such as ABS or Lloyds Rules (doesn't have to be CLASSED, just built to a standard.) All mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems need to meet either the Coast Guard regulations in Subchapter T, or if the passenger count and vessel length are smaller, ABYC standards. She needs to pass an intact stability standard, which usually requires physical testing (even if there are near sister vessels operating that have passed.) (A Damage Stability standard is not required if under 65 feet.) A collision bulkhead is required if operating on Exposed or Partially Protected waters. (It must be located between 5 and 15% of the waterline length aft of the stem, so even if you have one, it's gotta be in the right place.)

And all of the above needs to be documented to the satisfaction of the Coast Guard, which means accurate plans need to be drawn up and calculations submitted for approval. It can certainly be done, and is done all the time, but you need to be aware that it can take time and money to get that COI in your hands. Lots more to it than just being "seaworthy and not leaking fluids"!

My experience with the Coast Guard is that they are there to help you through the process, and they generally are very helpful in outlining the requirements and explaining the reasoning. However they do have a huge and varied mission, so there's definitely a limit to the amount of hand-holding they can do. So it's good to do a little homework before proceeding. The first step is to review the Regs (see the links below) and make a list of questions. Then contact your local Coast Guard Inspections office (OCMI, Officer in Charge Marine Inspection). They will assign an Inspector for the boat only if you can convince them you are serious -- i.e. you actually own the boat and are actively planning to make the necessary changes to put her into service. Then you can work closely with your inspector to work out what needs to be done and what documentation the Coast Guard will need. (My advice: don't try to fight them - it's worth developing a friendly, cooperative rapport with them.)

References:

-Rick Etsell, P.E., naval architect
 
There have been many utility boats that have recieved their coi.

The hull is fire retardant resin and has a collision bulkhead.

THe USN would run with 150 pax and 2 crew , most 50's will only be cert to about 40 due to the required inclining teat.

Sadly the USCG does not recognise the full flotation of the hull and allow more.

As this has been done dozens of times , a review of some of the existing certificates would get you on the right track.
 
Sunshine Rick said:
Wow, Tim, you may be sorry you asked this question here -- there is some pretty bad advice above! As a licensed Master, I'm sure you understand more about the regs for Subchapter T small passenger vessels than most of those who weighed in.

Some clarifications:

  1. You cannot bareboat charter a boat and then hire yourself back as captain -- that used to be the case some years ago, but it is expressly prohibited now.
  2. Just because a boat is well built doesn't mean it will be no problem getting certified. You still have to a.) Prove it (with plans, tests, and calculations), and b.) meet the letter of all requirements, not just be good marine practice. (Are the handrails 39.5" high? No, they're only 39"? You have to raise them! Do you have 32" wide exit doors? Of course not -- better get the sawsall out!)
  3. The Subchapter T construction and arrangement regulations apply to all boats carrying more than 6 passengers for hire (or more than 12 if the boat is over 100 Gross Tons (domestic)). Generally the boat must be US built though, which means Willards are certainly eligible.
Bottom line is that you need to jump through quite a few hoops to get any boat certified -- new or used. The Coast Guard needs to confirm that the hull is built to a classification standard such as ABS or Lloyds Rules (doesn't have to be CLASSED, just built to a standard.) All mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems need to meet either the Coast Guard regulations in Subchapter T, or if the passenger count and vessel length are smaller, ABYC standards. She needs to pass an intact stability standard, which usually requires physical testing (even if there are near sister vessels operating that have passed.) (A Damage Stability standard is not required if under 65 feet.) A collision bulkhead is required if operating on Exposed or Partially Protected waters. (It must be located between 5 and 15% of the waterline length aft of the stem, so even if you have one, it's gotta be in the right place.)

And all of the above needs to be documented to the satisfaction of the Coast Guard, which means accurate plans need to be drawn up and calculations submitted for approval. It can certainly be done, and is done all the time, but you need to be aware that it can take time and money to get that COI in your hands. Lots more to it than just being "seaworthy and not leaking fluids"!

My experience with the Coast Guard is that they are there to help you through the process, and they generally are very helpful in outlining the requirements and explaining the reasoning. However they do have a huge and varied mission, so there's definitely a limit to the amount of hand-holding they can do. So it's good to do a little homework before proceeding. The first step is to review the Regs (see the links below) and make a list of questions. Then contact your local Coast Guard Inspections office (OCMI, Officer in Charge Marine Inspection). They will assign an Inspector for the boat only if you can convince them you are serious -- i.e. you actually own the boat and are actively planning to make the necessary changes to put her into service. Then you can work closely with your inspector to work out what needs to be done and what documentation the Coast Guard will need. (My advice: don't try to fight them - it's worth developing a friendly, cooperative rapport with them.)

References:

-Rick Etsell, P.E., naval architect
Click to expand...


When did they stop the bareboat/Hired Captain deal? I was unaware of that.

thanks
 
windmill29130 said:
When did they stop the bareboat/Hired Captain deal?
Click to expand...

They haven't.

The regulations are just more strict and better defined since there are or were so many people violating the rules through ignorance or by choice.

Again, don't rely on internet forums for that kind of information. Go to the source, learn to read the CFRs and ask the USCG for specific information regarding your own situation.

Just because your document is endorsed for coastwise trade doesn't make it or you a commercial operator or operation ... contrary to what at least one member here believes and promotes.
 
RickB said:
They haven't.

The regulations are just more strict and better defined since there are or were so many people violating the rules through ignorance or by choice.

Again, don't rely on internet forums for that kind of information. Go to the source, learn to read the CFRs and ask the USCG for specific information regarding your own situation.

Just because your document is endorsed for coastwise trade doesn't make it or you a commercial operator or operation ... contrary to what at least one member here believes and promotes.
Click to expand...


thanks :thumb:
 
windmill29130 said:
thanks :thumb:
Click to expand...

Even if you do not you might want to take out a business licence so you can open wholesale/commercial accounts. You need is a state business license which is a simple form and low fee. :socool:
 
Sunshine Rick,

Glad to see you here as so few Willardites post on this forum.

There are two Willard 30s at Latitude Marine and several at the LaConner Marina where I will probably return about mid summer. Much to do after my 7 years in Alaska.
 
<LI class="tall pdf1">Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessel (OUPV) or “6-Pack” License – This license is most appropriate for un-inspected passenger vessels which by law are limited to six or less passengers for hire. These are usually smaller vessels and normally engage in charter fishing, whale watching, SCUBA diving, and tour cruises. This license is limited to near coastal waters only not more than 100 miles offshore and is not valid for international voyages.


Doesn't the title of this license say the boat does not have to be inspected as long as the passengers are six or less. Not sure what the original poster had in mind, but if he limits it to six he is ok. Right?
 
I guess you didn't bother to look up "COI."

No point in going any further with this conversation.
 
RickB said:
I guess you didn't bother to look up "COI."

No point in going any further with this conversation.
Click to expand...


Yes I did JackAZZ! My point is that if he operates with six or less passengers he doesn't need one!

Coast Guard regulations require each vessel carrying more than six passengers to have a valid COI onboard. The COI is a document issued to owners and operators of vessels following a satisfactory safety inspection by a Coast Guard marine inspector. The COI documents the vessel’s compliance with established structural standards, stability, lifesaving, firefighting and navigation equipment, as well as conditions of operating and demonstrated crew competency procedures.
 
Whether you think he needs one or not is quite irrelevant.

He started the thread, he titled it, he asked about getting a COI.

He didn't ask you if you thought he needed one.
 
RickB said:
Whether you think he needs one or not is quite irrelevant.

He started the thread, he titled it, he asked about getting a COI.

He didn't ask you if you thought he needed one.
Click to expand...


Read the entire thread. Is seems others brought up other information that created new discussion that I responded to as did others. I didn't know we couldn't respond without permission from the thread starter. You being a Guru, please forward me the rules of of discussion. :confused:
 
"The COI documents the vessel’s compliance with established structural standards, stability, lifesaving, firefighting and navigation equipment, as well as conditions of operating and demonstrated crew competency procedures."

So when you go out in a 6 pack boat ALL of this is missing.

Talk about CAVIAT EMPTOR!!!

A paper boat with the usual number of std safety items could be used as a 6 pac.

And of course there is no need to demonstrate any boat handling , just redoing a published paper test makes one "EL Captain!".
 
windmill29130 said:
Read the entire thread. Is seems others brought up other information that created new discussion that I responded to as did others. I didn't know we couldn't respond without permission from the thread starter. You being a Guru, please forward me the rules of of discussion. :confused:
Click to expand...

Here's the "rules" ... read the question, answer the question if you can or want to. Provide a source for further information if you have it. Ask a closely related question if you have one.

If you don't know what color oranges are don't change the subject to watermelons because you saw one in a grocery store once and know that people eat them too.

This thread went to "other information" because a member who thinks putting coastwise on his document makes him a commercial operator chimed in with a watermelon story. Your best contribution so far is "Read the entire thread."
 
50

Sunshine Rick said:
Wow, Tim, you may be sorry you asked this question here -- there is some pretty bad advice above! As a licensed Master, I'm sure you understand more about the regs for Subchapter T small passenger vessels than most of those who weighed in.

Some clarifications:

  1. You cannot bareboat charter a boat and then hire yourself back as captain -- that used to be the case some years ago, but it is expressly prohibited now.
  2. Just because a boat is well built doesn't mean it will be no problem getting certified. You still have to a.) Prove it (with plans, tests, and calculations), and b.) meet the letter of all requirements, not just be good marine practice. (Are the handrails 39.5" high? No, they're only 39"? You have to raise them! Do you have 32" wide exit doors? Of course not -- better get the sawsall out!)
  3. The Subchapter T construction and arrangement regulations apply to all boats carrying more than 6 passengers for hire (or more than 12 if the boat is over 100 Gross Tons (domestic)). Generally the boat must be US built though, which means Willards are certainly eligible.
Bottom line is that you need to jump through quite a few hoops to get any boat certified -- new or used. The Coast Guard needs to confirm that the hull is built to a classification standard such as ABS or Lloyds Rules (doesn't have to be CLASSED, just built to a standard.) All mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems need to meet either the Coast Guard regulations in Subchapter T, or if the passenger count and vessel length are smaller, ABYC standards. She needs to pass an intact stability standard, which usually requires physical testing (even if there are near sister vessels operating that have passed.) (A Damage Stability standard is not required if under 65 feet.) A collision bulkhead is required if operating on Exposed or Partially Protected waters. (It must be located between 5 and 15% of the waterline length aft of the stem, so even if you have one, it's gotta be in the right place.)

And all of the above needs to be documented to the satisfaction of the Coast Guard, which means accurate plans need to be drawn up and calculations submitted for approval. It can certainly be done, and is done all the time, but you need to be aware that it can take time and money to get that COI in your hands. Lots more to it than just being "seaworthy and not leaking fluids"!

My experience with the Coast Guard is that they are there to help you through the process, and they generally are very helpful in outlining the requirements and explaining the reasoning. However they do have a huge and varied mission, so there's definitely a limit to the amount of hand-holding they can do. So it's good to do a little homework before proceeding. The first step is to review the Regs (see the links below) and make a list of questions. Then contact your local Coast Guard Inspections office (OCMI, Officer in Charge Marine Inspection). They will assign an Inspector for the boat only if you can convince them you are serious -- i.e. you actually own the boat and are actively planning to make the necessary changes to put her into service. Then you can work closely with your inspector to work out what needs to be done and what documentation the Coast Guard will need. (My advice: don't try to fight them - it's worth developing a friendly, cooperative rapport with them.)

References:

-Rick Etsell, P.E., naval architect
Click to expand...
Hi Rick, Good advice and I contacted the CG and set up a meeting .They were more than happy to meet with me on this project. The CG in Boston does have that Small vessel package,it's titled (I have a dream) ..Thanks all.
Tim
 
1. The charterer must have the option of selecting the crew. Although a master or crew may
be furnished by the owner, full possession and control must be vested in the charterer.
This does not preclude the charterer from taking advice from the master and crew
regarding hazardous conditions such as, inclement weather, navigational obstructions,
etc.​
2.The master and crew are paid by the charterer.
3.All food, fuel, and stores are provided by the charterer.
4.All port charges and pilotage fees, if any, are paid by the charterer.
5. Insurance is obtained by the charterer, at least to the extent of covering liability not
included in the owner’s insurance. A greater indication of full control in the charterer is
shown if all insurance is carried by the charterer (of course, the owner retains every right
to protect his or her interest in the vessel).​
6.​
​
The charterer may discharge, for cause, the master or any crew member without referral
to the owner.​

7. The vessel is to be surveyed upon its delivery and return.

After reading this from CG regulations, I would say you cannot bareboat and get hired back as the Captain.
 
windmill29130 said:

After reading this from CG regulations, I would say you cannot bareboat and get hired back as the Captain.
​
Click to expand...


After reading more deeply into USCG interpretations and actions, I see that I was mistaken and you are correct.

While there appears to be no specific regulation that prohibits the owner from serving as master, the CG interpretation and its enforcement history supports the practical fact that an owner who serves as master under a "bareboat" charter agreement will not succeed in a defence against the violation.
​
 
RickB said:
After reading more deeply into USCG interpretations and actions, I see that I was mistaken and you are correct.

While there appears to be no specific regulation that prohibits the owner from serving as master, the CG interpretation and its enforcement history supports the practical fact that an owner who serves as master under a "bareboat" charter agreement will not succeed in a defence against the violation.
[/LEFT]
Click to expand...


I'm not right, I originally thought the same thing because I was told that just recently at a marina. This is why I participate in this forum, is to learn, not by being told, but actually seeing things in writing. This forum provides me with resources to read and learn. I hope others will not take information without investigating on their own. Especially if they are pursing an endeaver such as chartering!
 
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