Single vs Twin: It's Baaaaack!

manyboats said:

were calling the skeg a shoe.

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To further confuse matters.......

What in Maine (and no doubt other places) is called a Skeg Bar, Skeg Iron, or just Skeg, is in BC known as a Rudder Shoe or just Shoe. My sources are Buck-Algonquin (who make them) and a Celtic (BC Packers) Shipyard drawing from 1952.

The Oxford Companion To Ships and the Sea (British) states....Skeg, or Skegg; "an extension of the deadwood to prevent a ships propellers digging into the ground if she went ashore on a bank."

You say to-may-to and I say to-mah-to...

It's all the same in the end, right?

bfloyd4445 said:

chuckle....makes sense to me Marin. I love the concept of the efficiency of the single but i do like the idea of having twins to maneuver in port. Away from the dock the quiet quiet simplicity of a single...not to mention fuel and maintenance efficiency, are awfully enticing. what bothers me is the fact that commercial fishermen prefer singles, so, they are out there every day not like us so they should know what's best. Right?

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Please read post #232 by Tad Roberts. And in case that name doesn't ring a bell to you, I recommend googleing it.

Larry H said:

All of these boats are single engine. They are not grouped together to assist one another, but because that is where the fish are!

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Amen, brother!

Did it not occur to you guys that it's possible they are there for multiple reasons? Last spring I went down the BC coast and saw many many small groups of fish boats heading north and don't recall any loners. Probably was but I don't recall them.

Thank you TAD and I knew the term shoe was used by many knowledgable people in the marine world but it's hard to argue w a dictionary. I suppose it's possible that people that write dictionaries don't frequent boat yards.

I have a steel shoe on the keel of my boat.
It is a U shaped welded fitted over the bottom of the keel to protect it when grounding.
It extends forward and up the stem to just above the water line.When fitted it was filled with pitch, jacked into place and then thru bolted.
This was to ensure that there could be no wormies getting into the keel.
I have attached a couple of photos , one of gthe bow section and the other where the shoe is fitted over the skeg.
Cheers
Benn

Benn, you're (we're) making dual-engine folks jealous, maybe?

Benn
Your grounding show looks pretty stout.

Mark
Yours looks less stout and more like a rudder shaft support than a grounding shoe

Re: Fishing boats traveling together.

Many boats fishing SE AK are from Washington. When they make the trip up or down the Inside Passage, they tend to travel in groups for the reasons discussed here. I have seen a group of seine boats traveling in follow the leader style, with only the lead boat being driven by someone who knows where they are going. The following boats may have a crew member driving, who is OK driving, but cannot navigate. Seine boats have five to seven crew aboard. Also, these boat are on a 'thru passage' with no stops, operating 24 hrs per day, so rotating the driving chore is required.

Once in SE AK, these boats go to the areas where they will fish. These areas are where the AK Fish and Game has set the openings. We have seen boats in transit from, say Ketchikan to Sumner Str. for a gill net opening. They do not usually travel in groups or pairs as the passage is not particularly difficult or dangerous. Once at the opening, all the fishermen are competitors. If someone breaks down, they will probably get help, but no fishing boat is going to loose the opportunity to earn their living to help someone who should have been better prepared. However, if they are sinking, someone will perform a rescue!

When in SE AK, we 'toy boat' operators need to learn how to stay clear of fishing boats that are fishing, and not impede their work. They are busy and may not be paying much attention to other small boat traffic.

sunchaser said:

Benn
Your grounding show looks pretty stout.

Mark
Yours looks less stout and more like a rudder shaft support than a grounding shoe

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Maybe, but Benn's boat is bigger/heavier than mine. (Did I mention my boat's hull is made of steel --8mm keel sides, 12mm keel and rudder skeg?) I've slid aground twice so far (but able to continue to deeper waters) without damage except for scraped bottom paint.

markpierce said:

Benn, you're (we're) making dual-engine folks jealous, maybe?

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Mark, You can't compare your single screw to Tidahapah's as his vessel has a very good get home set-up in the form of a marine engineer onboard. Now that's something to be jealous about.

No disagreement here. Having a marine engineer/diesel mechanic aboard would be handy.

Eric-- I'm not going to argue with the dictionary. But I have never heard the keel extension that runs under the prop and supports the bottom of the rudder referred to as a skeg and have always heard it referred to as a shoe. The guys in the Seaview yard call it a shoe, the builders of narrowboats in the UK call it a shoe.

So while skeg may actually be the correct name, the chances are if you call it that most people will think you're talking about something else, like the fin on the bottom of a surfboard which is universally known as a skeg. So I think you're safe in continuing to call the rudder support extension a shoe.

You don't have to be a mechanic/marine engineer to get home. You just have to be able to figure out whats wrong and have an alternative system or spare part to bolt on that will get you someplace safe.

As far as skeg versus shore...I think it might be where you are from...but I've always hear that the "shoe" protects the skeg. If the skeg is a tiny thin thingy...I guess it might just be referred to as a shoe.

Either way ...if I was sent out to repair a skeg or shoe...I don't think I would argue with the service manager whichever he called it and I would have no trouble finding it.

manyboats said:

Did it not occur to you guys that it's possible they are there for multiple reasons?

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...lonely fishermen...long stretches at sea... ....

Marin said:

Eric-- I'm not going to argue with the dictionary. But I have never heard the keel extension that runs under the prop and supports the bottom of the rudder referred to as a skeg and have always heard it referred to as a shoe. The guys in the Seaview yard call it a shoe, the builders of narrowboats in the UK call it a shoe.

So while skeg may actually be the correct name, the chances are if you call it that most people will think you're talking about something else, like the fin on the bottom of a surfboard which is universally known as a skeg. So I think you're safe in continuing to call the rudder support extension a shoe.

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Marin,
I concur with your description of a skeg vs. a shoe... the below pic is a rudder that is skeg mounted..
HOLLYWOOD

Anode said:

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First mate on my boat"s is Peter Richard Johnson. True.

SD

skipperdude said:

First mate on my boat"s is Peter Richard Johnson. True.

SD

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Skipper -That's going to be lost on some of this crowd..

At least there's a lot of things (most actually) being said now that I agree with. And Hollywood 8118 I agree fully that you posted a picture of a skeg ... well put as a "skeg mounted rudder". The interesting thing is would it become a keel if that same skeg had a propeller and shaft mounted within it? But I really think one should have the liberty to choose the best (as decided by themselves) of 2 or more terms in the grey area when the thing needing a proper name is'nt clearly this or that. Regarding what we've been discussing I don't think there is a strong chance of mis-communication. The area between a cruiser and a trawler is quite grey as well and most of us disagree about specifically what boats fall into what area or word of definition. Indeed we can't even agree on a definition of trawler. Last week I had the shocking experience of listening to a man with life long experience in boating more than equal to most here on TF say that a GB was not a trawler. I argued that there was possibly nothing more classifiable as a trawler than a GB. He stood his ground. But I think Hollywood has produced a genuine skeg. And as to the term shoe yes most people in my world call the keel to bottom of rudder "thing" a shoe. But like a horse shoe the horse shoe is external to the hoof and perhaps generally speaking the shoe is a protective fender to the bottom of a skeg or strut. The shoe/strut/skeg on end of a keel and usually connected to the rudder is fairly accurately described as a "protective strut largely or partially supporting the rudder and protecting the propeller and rudder from potentially damaging things below the surface of the water".

Perhaps the term shoe has descended from wood boats. As I recall they (mostly) had a metal channel or similar metal attachment to the "skeg" (not completely unlike a horseshoe) that usually led fwd along the keel and was probably refereed to as the shoe. See in the pic below my "shoe" is a metal attachment to the keel.

Well the short of it is either shoe or skeg will do for me.

manyboats said:

Last week I had the shocking experience of listening to a man with life long experience in boating more than equal to most here on TF say that a GB was not a trawler. I argued that there was possibly nothing more classifiable as a trawler than a GB. He stood his ground.

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Shocking! ....(he was correct)

Anyone can stand their ground....long life experiences don't make you right (as per some TF members who think a lifetime of experience, actual work in that field and an armful of certifications still don't make your opinions worth anything...)....

You can get persnickety about correctness of terms....but whether fishermen, old British guys, brokers, Grand Bank owners,etc...etc....don't want to call a Grand Banks a trawler...that's just fine....

But in the long run most boaters will call a Grand Banks a trawler....and like a shoe or skeg on a boat...who gives a crap in the big scheme of things.......it's not like arguing the port or starboard side of a boat which IS important...

Chapman: "Within the commercial fishing community, the word "trawler" has a specific meaning relating to a style of fishing, but in recreational boating the term is used much more loosely. In general, a cruiser that does not have sufficient horsepower to get into a planing mode is known as a TRAWLER. ..."

Mark that dictionary of yours is a powerful thing.

Skidgear,
Shocked again! What on earth could you base that opinion on? And what boat do you think most represents a trawler?

By marks dictionatorial definition a 52 foot Chris w a 3hp Johnson clamped to the swim stet would be about as trawler as one could get.

skeg:
Nautical Dictionary, Glossary and Terms directory: Search Results

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/skeg

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/skeg

shoe:
Nautical Dictionary, Glossary and Terms directory: Search Results

trawler:
http://www.seatalk.info/cgi-bin/nautical-marine-sailing-dictionary/db.cgi?db=db&view_records=1&uid=default&Term=trawler&submit=Look+it+up%21

More fuel for the fire, but consider that the above is from the Internet.

manyboats said:

By marks dictionatorial definition a 52 foot Chris w a 3hp Johnson clamped to the swim stet would be about as trawler as one could get.

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Or this one ... it is a fantastic "cruiser" and it doesn't have enough power to plane.

Maybe that's why Lizzie got rid of the Brittania - didn't want to be hanging around with us trawler-trash.

A single engine boat has more room in the engineroom which allowes one to more closely view and monitor the related systems. You are right, one will have more access to and therefore be able to or more willing to do preventive maintance. For me to contorte around a set of twins make me unwilling to work around there. In a single engineroom I am more able to move around therfore more willing.

Rockyaj1 said:

A single engine boat has more room in the engineroom which allowes one to more closely view and monitor the related systems. You are right, one will have more access to and therefore be able to or more willing to do preventive maintance. For me to contorte around a set of twins make me unwilling to work around there. In a single engineroom I am more able to move around therfore more willing.

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Folks, the post above should end all single vs. twin debates. The secret answer has been revealed - twin engined boats are less reliable because owners do not or are less likely to monitor their engines. Marin and others with twins, you need to stop driving your boats with pumps that have missing impeller blades, frayed belts, collapsed hoses, clogged heat exchangers and who knows what else.

Rockyaj1 said:

A single engine boat has more room in the engineroom which allowes one to more closely view and monitor the related systems.

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I think the issue becomes sorta moot as you increase boat size. And the larger boats would supposedly have twins instead of singles. But if you take a boat that is normally designed for a single and cram twins inside, then yeah, it'll be damn cramped down there.


Doesn't look cramped in there, but that's a 72' ship.

Engine room on the USS Hornet:


Others are very tight indeed:


Maybe shoulda gone with single engine instead of twins.

mahal said:

Folks, the post above should end all single vs. twin debates. The secret answer has been revealed - twin engined boats are less reliable because owners do not or are less likely to monitor their engines. Marin and others with twins, you need to stop driving your boats with pumps that have missing impeller blades, frayed belts, collapsed hoses, clogged heat exchangers and who knows what else.

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...chuckle...well said