SomeSailor
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Very true. It does get pretty testy on here though in such discussions. I haven't gotten used to that part of TF yet.
Single vs Twin: It's Baaaaack!
- Thread starter markpierce
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Very true. It does get pretty testy on here though in such discussions. I haven't gotten used to that part of TF yet.
ksanders
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I think I'll invite 2850bounty to join TF, that'll calm things down
Yeah, that'll calm things RIGHT down, Kev!
skipperdude
Guru
There is no fuss.
Each and every time we go out. We take the lives of ourself and everyone aboard into our own hands.
Single or twin Shi+ happens.
It all depends on your comfort factor.
I have a single but that is what it is. I watch things close. Preventative maintenance is what it is all about. don't put it off do it now better yet Yesterday.
Hundreds and hundreds of hours and I have always made it home safe and sound under my own power.
No matter if it is commercial fishing in Alaska's waters or just cruising.
The sea is a harsh mistress for sure.
Get the boat that best decreases the pucker factor for you.
There is no better or best.
Just boats.
Sd
Each and every time we go out. We take the lives of ourself and everyone aboard into our own hands.
Single or twin Shi+ happens.
It all depends on your comfort factor.
I have a single but that is what it is. I watch things close. Preventative maintenance is what it is all about. don't put it off do it now better yet Yesterday.
Hundreds and hundreds of hours and I have always made it home safe and sound under my own power.
No matter if it is commercial fishing in Alaska's waters or just cruising.
The sea is a harsh mistress for sure.
Get the boat that best decreases the pucker factor for you.
There is no better or best.
Just boats.
Sd
psneeld
Guru
Can't speak for the other single guys but for me...I'll probably NEVER cruise more than 50-75 miles from civilization in my boat. There will always be Sea Tow or Boat US to get me home or out of minor dangerous situations or the USCG, even plenty of other boaters to help out.
If I planned to go further than Downeast Maine, the Bahamas and Cuba ...I would certainly look at all those features more seriously.....
But for now...just about every "accessory" past the long block (plus injectors/fuel pump) is easily fixed in minutes.....underway or at anchor/adrift (cause I watch the weather and don't go if it means getting beat up underway or working in the engine room.)...and If I don't feel like doing it to keep going...the complimentary assistance towing membership I get is worth it's weight in gold...
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The availability of help is dependent on where one boats, even in coastal waters. In Puget Sound and lower BC there are the usual Vessel Assist operators plus the Coast Guard plus a fair number of boats out and about most times of the year.
In these waters, BTW, the Canadian Coast Guard is much more likely to assist a boater than the USCG which these days is primarily a low-enforcement organization with boater assistance dispatched only in the event of immediate danger to life. The Canadian Coast Guard also has a very active and organized Auxiliary that the Coast Guard actually uses for assistance dispatch. As opposed to the USCG Auxiliary which in this area plays almost no role at all in anything other than law enforcement patrol functions. Moral: If you're going to break down, break down in BC.
But once one gets up the coast in BC help can be a long time coming. Depending on the location and the time of year, there may be few to no other boats around. And has been discussed in other threads, with the maze of narrow channels and passes, very deep water right up to the shoreline, and strong currents a breakdown can end up in a grounding unless assistance can arrive within minutes. But in many places waterborne assistance may be hours or even a day away.
Added to this is the high nature of the islands and coastal mountains, so communications can be spotty or non-existent unless one has satcom of some sort. When and if the day comes that we are able to take our boat up the Inside Passage we will most likely install satcom--- KVH/Intelsat or the equivalent. Not so much in anticipation of a boat breakdown--- we have two engines--- but for things like medical emergencies and so on.
I get the impression from the posts to this forum over the years that the eastern seaboard, and perhaps the Gulf, too, is pretty "settled" with many waterside communities, marine assistance operators, and, as evidenced by the photos, dead flat geography which must make line-of-sight and mobile phone communications extremely reliable.
On this coast, from Campbell River-Powell River on north for the 700-plus miles (as the raven flies, not as one's boat twists and turns) up through SE Alaska we would operate on the assumption that we are on our own with regards to taking action in the event of a breakdown or some other boat problem. Assuming one can make contact with the "outside," help will arrive eventually. But there are many scenarios in which "eventually" might as well be "not at all" at least as far as the boat is concerned.
This, I believe, is why we see-- from the air as well as from our small boat when we're halibut fishing up north--- so many boats making the run up or down the Passage traveling in pairs or groups. Even the commercial fishing boats do this.
In these waters, BTW, the Canadian Coast Guard is much more likely to assist a boater than the USCG which these days is primarily a low-enforcement organization with boater assistance dispatched only in the event of immediate danger to life. The Canadian Coast Guard also has a very active and organized Auxiliary that the Coast Guard actually uses for assistance dispatch. As opposed to the USCG Auxiliary which in this area plays almost no role at all in anything other than law enforcement patrol functions. Moral: If you're going to break down, break down in BC.
But once one gets up the coast in BC help can be a long time coming. Depending on the location and the time of year, there may be few to no other boats around. And has been discussed in other threads, with the maze of narrow channels and passes, very deep water right up to the shoreline, and strong currents a breakdown can end up in a grounding unless assistance can arrive within minutes. But in many places waterborne assistance may be hours or even a day away.
Added to this is the high nature of the islands and coastal mountains, so communications can be spotty or non-existent unless one has satcom of some sort. When and if the day comes that we are able to take our boat up the Inside Passage we will most likely install satcom--- KVH/Intelsat or the equivalent. Not so much in anticipation of a boat breakdown--- we have two engines--- but for things like medical emergencies and so on.
I get the impression from the posts to this forum over the years that the eastern seaboard, and perhaps the Gulf, too, is pretty "settled" with many waterside communities, marine assistance operators, and, as evidenced by the photos, dead flat geography which must make line-of-sight and mobile phone communications extremely reliable.
On this coast, from Campbell River-Powell River on north for the 700-plus miles (as the raven flies, not as one's boat twists and turns) up through SE Alaska we would operate on the assumption that we are on our own with regards to taking action in the event of a breakdown or some other boat problem. Assuming one can make contact with the "outside," help will arrive eventually. But there are many scenarios in which "eventually" might as well be "not at all" at least as far as the boat is concerned.
This, I believe, is why we see-- from the air as well as from our small boat when we're halibut fishing up north--- so many boats making the run up or down the Passage traveling in pairs or groups. Even the commercial fishing boats do this.
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SomeSailor
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I think I'll invite 2850bounty to join TF, that'll calm things down
Yeah... he, Rick, Marin and I would make a great discussion.
SomeSailor
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Yeah, but finishing my vacation at a the end of a tow line isn't in my plan.
Who the heck is 2850bounty?
SomeSailor
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A friend of ours from another forum. Kevin was pokin' me there. 2850Bounty and I go round and round about silly stuff as well.
psneeld
Guru
Who says finishing the vacation must be at the end of the towline?? If you bother to actually READ my posts...you see that I have said MOST repairs are quick if you have the tools and parts with you. Most places on the East coast you can have parts overnighted if you must. Using assistance towing would not usually be my first choice unless it was easier than just fixing it on the spot.
For those in more remote parts of the country...sure twins and get home engines are surely preferred to a simple single...but that's not where I am and those that choose two engines have fun wherever you are...I don't need a second to be pretty much worry free and having just the same amount of fun on long cruises that twin drivers have...maybe more because there's less to check and maintain.
Other than that...holy cow.....it's been explained to the simplest level in numerous posts...
For those in more remote parts of the country...sure twins and get home engines are surely preferred to a simple single...but that's not where I am and those that choose two engines have fun wherever you are...I don't need a second to be pretty much worry free and having just the same amount of fun on long cruises that twin drivers have...maybe more because there's less to check and maintain.
Other than that...holy cow.....it's been explained to the simplest level in numerous posts...
bobofthenorth
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I don't think I can remember one of these threads ever exploring what you can do with twins. Mostly we degenerate into "mine is better than yours". I'm by no means an expert but I'll try to head us in the right direction:
- there's the obvious one transmission forward and the other in reverse with or without complementary rudder input. For us with rudder input we can spin on the spot; without the rudder we will move forward as we turn.
- with transmissions crossed (1 fwd other rvs) and opposing rudder input we can crab somewhat. I often use that if I've got a strong sidewind against me in a narrow fairway.
In our case we also have a bow thruster so it gets pretty simple (and a lot of fun). Your best bet is to do as you have already indicated - charter a twin and go play with it.
psneeld
Guru
Without a doubt in close quarters maneuvering where you have to hold a spot or pretty much mve sideways...twins outshine a single even with a thruster...at least most of the situations. Spring lines even up docking situations but in open water the twins have the advantage.
But for the generic cruiser that docks once or twice a day...a single in most cases even without a thruster is adequate.
And sure...in remote areas...the twin may be your only chance at continuing...and maybe survival in the worst case scenario...I just think that thinking ahead in many situations makes up a lot for either a twin or single getting into bad situations....but a single does have limitations when all else is against you.
...just to keep this stupid thread going...how about this... Since most insurance policies have a provision for limited boat tow assistance, and since twins virtually never need to be towed....twin owners are unfairly subsidizing single owners. Same for tax dollars that go to the Coast Guard who never have to respond to engine failures with twins, but routinely squander tax dollars on owners of singles (power and sail).
GMB---- There actually is a little book on maneuvering with twin engines. I bought a copy when we got our boat and read it some of it but in reality we just taught ourselves. If I can find it at home I'll post the title and author although I don't believe boat maneuvering is something you can learn from a book; you just have to go do it.
I do not adhere to the notion that a twin is easier to maneuver than a single or that it can do things a single can't. Well, there's one and that's cost you more money.
But anything you can accomplish with a twin you can accomplish with a single. The means to accomplish it will in some cases be different but the end result will be the same. Throw in a bow thruster on the single and it will do some things you can't do at all with a twin unless the twin has a bow thruster, too.
A twin is not any sort of miracle cure for tricky maneuvering situations. In fact I feel fairly safe in saying we've seen more people get into trouble docking their twin engine boat than we've seen mess up docking their singe engine boat.
About the only significant thing in my opinion a twin can do that a single without a thruster can't is pivot more or less within its own length without the need to back and fill.
The other thing you can do with a twin that you can't really do with a single (I don't think) is "walk" it sideways into a dock. You can do this because you can alternate the opposing thrust to sort of see-saw the boat sideways at least for a short distance until other things--- wind, current, the not-dead-center position of most boats' center of yaw---- mess it up.
There are people who claim that they can move a twin straight sideways (like with a bow and stern thruster together) using the two engines only. I personally think this is BS and that what they're really doing is walking the boat in. I have had a couple of very, very good and experienced boat handlers tell me how to move our boat straight sideways up to a dock and then when I couldn't do it got on to show me how and they couldn't do it either. The boat always ended up angling one way or the other. So the walking thing, yes, the straight sideways thing, no.
It can also be handy to use power on only one side or the other when docking to help adjust the rate of turn or "sideways slide" as we enter a slip or angle into a dock. But that's a developed feel thing, not something that one can say "do this and this will happen" because every boat will respond differently depending on prop placement, distance between the props, distance the props are from the keel and the corners of the boat, the location of the boat's center of yaw of the boat, etc.
There are mental images one can use to visualize how to manipulate the shifters to get the desired result in a twin. My wife used the imagined movement of her hips when she pulled the shifters back or moved them forward. I visualized driving a bulldozer as this was the way it was explained to me when we sea-trialed our boat and the analogy worked for me. And I've heard about other images too.
But it didn't take long before it all became automatic and neither my wife nor I had any need of a visual analogy to guide us into how to move the shifters to get the result we wanted.
Best thing, I think, if you don't have a twin engine boat but are curious about how the differential thrust thing works is to go out with someone who has a twin and is real good with it.
The most important thing I've learned so far with regards to maneuvering a twin (or a single) is don't rush. Things don't happen that fast with a 30,000 pound boat, even if there's a decent wind or current. I've watched twin-engine operators come in, get a little screwed up, and start frantically see-sawing back and forth on the shifters, revving the engines, and so on.
All this does is subject the transmissions to more wear and shock and mess up the maneuver even more.
It's imperative, I think, to have a good mental picture of how the wind or current or both is going to affect your boat long before you get to the dock or slip. OFB described the importance of this in a post in another thread (or maybe it was this one).
If you have learned how your boat responds to opposed thrust or thrust on just one engine, and how opposed thrust plus the rudder affects the pivot rate, and how using the "inside" engine to continue a turn but slow the rate down as opposed to using the "outside" engine, you can then visualize how your boat is going to respond to what you do in a particular current, wind, etc. situation.
And if you can do that, then you can plan exactly what you're going to do with the shifters and rudder and throttles beforehand. And the more experience you get, the more you will be right, and the docking will be a total non-event.
But if you wait until you are actually entering the maneuvering situation to decide what you're going to do, the odds of screwing it up go way up unless you are so in tune with your boat and how it reacts that you don't need any plan-ahead time. The commercial tug and fishboat people who maneuver their boats day after day after day seem to be like this. Most recreational boaters, including me, aren't.
I do not adhere to the notion that a twin is easier to maneuver than a single or that it can do things a single can't. Well, there's one and that's cost you more money.
But anything you can accomplish with a twin you can accomplish with a single. The means to accomplish it will in some cases be different but the end result will be the same. Throw in a bow thruster on the single and it will do some things you can't do at all with a twin unless the twin has a bow thruster, too.
A twin is not any sort of miracle cure for tricky maneuvering situations. In fact I feel fairly safe in saying we've seen more people get into trouble docking their twin engine boat than we've seen mess up docking their singe engine boat.
About the only significant thing in my opinion a twin can do that a single without a thruster can't is pivot more or less within its own length without the need to back and fill.
The other thing you can do with a twin that you can't really do with a single (I don't think) is "walk" it sideways into a dock. You can do this because you can alternate the opposing thrust to sort of see-saw the boat sideways at least for a short distance until other things--- wind, current, the not-dead-center position of most boats' center of yaw---- mess it up.
There are people who claim that they can move a twin straight sideways (like with a bow and stern thruster together) using the two engines only. I personally think this is BS and that what they're really doing is walking the boat in. I have had a couple of very, very good and experienced boat handlers tell me how to move our boat straight sideways up to a dock and then when I couldn't do it got on to show me how and they couldn't do it either. The boat always ended up angling one way or the other. So the walking thing, yes, the straight sideways thing, no.
It can also be handy to use power on only one side or the other when docking to help adjust the rate of turn or "sideways slide" as we enter a slip or angle into a dock. But that's a developed feel thing, not something that one can say "do this and this will happen" because every boat will respond differently depending on prop placement, distance between the props, distance the props are from the keel and the corners of the boat, the location of the boat's center of yaw of the boat, etc.
There are mental images one can use to visualize how to manipulate the shifters to get the desired result in a twin. My wife used the imagined movement of her hips when she pulled the shifters back or moved them forward. I visualized driving a bulldozer as this was the way it was explained to me when we sea-trialed our boat and the analogy worked for me. And I've heard about other images too.
But it didn't take long before it all became automatic and neither my wife nor I had any need of a visual analogy to guide us into how to move the shifters to get the result we wanted.
Best thing, I think, if you don't have a twin engine boat but are curious about how the differential thrust thing works is to go out with someone who has a twin and is real good with it.
The most important thing I've learned so far with regards to maneuvering a twin (or a single) is don't rush. Things don't happen that fast with a 30,000 pound boat, even if there's a decent wind or current. I've watched twin-engine operators come in, get a little screwed up, and start frantically see-sawing back and forth on the shifters, revving the engines, and so on.
All this does is subject the transmissions to more wear and shock and mess up the maneuver even more.
It's imperative, I think, to have a good mental picture of how the wind or current or both is going to affect your boat long before you get to the dock or slip. OFB described the importance of this in a post in another thread (or maybe it was this one).
If you have learned how your boat responds to opposed thrust or thrust on just one engine, and how opposed thrust plus the rudder affects the pivot rate, and how using the "inside" engine to continue a turn but slow the rate down as opposed to using the "outside" engine, you can then visualize how your boat is going to respond to what you do in a particular current, wind, etc. situation.
And if you can do that, then you can plan exactly what you're going to do with the shifters and rudder and throttles beforehand. And the more experience you get, the more you will be right, and the docking will be a total non-event.
But if you wait until you are actually entering the maneuvering situation to decide what you're going to do, the odds of screwing it up go way up unless you are so in tune with your boat and how it reacts that you don't need any plan-ahead time. The commercial tug and fishboat people who maneuver their boats day after day after day seem to be like this. Most recreational boaters, including me, aren't.
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psneeld
Guru
As an assistance tower...I don't think any of that is accurate...but I would love to know the actual numbers.
psneeld
Guru
Sorry Marin but I'll disagree....a twin in capable hands can do way more than a single...not that a single can't handle most situations (as long as the situation allows you to be ahead of the boat). As a comercial operator...that's not always possible...sometimes you are expected to do the impossible and the twin makes it a little easier.
A twin with a thruster makes a single with thruster look like a horse and buggy compared to a spaceship. I drive a single screw towboat and make it do things that amaze people...but I also handle hundreds of other kind of craft every year and have to say that I can do way more with a well rigged twin.
But my liveaboard is a single and I'm content and haven't been in a docking situation where I couldn't git'er done. There were many situations where a twin would have made it mindless instead of a workout and sometimes the use of the windlass to winch the bow over to the dock where any more power on just a spring would have ripped cleats out (45 degree, 3 knot current on a face dock). Now if I had had 2 more able bodies deck hands with me...maybe even that would have been less of a challenge for the singlel
A twin with a thruster makes a single with thruster look like a horse and buggy compared to a spaceship. I drive a single screw towboat and make it do things that amaze people...but I also handle hundreds of other kind of craft every year and have to say that I can do way more with a well rigged twin.
But my liveaboard is a single and I'm content and haven't been in a docking situation where I couldn't git'er done. There were many situations where a twin would have made it mindless instead of a workout and sometimes the use of the windlass to winch the bow over to the dock where any more power on just a spring would have ripped cleats out (45 degree, 3 knot current on a face dock). Now if I had had 2 more able bodies deck hands with me...maybe even that would have been less of a challenge for the singlel
Tidahapah
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As stated in a previous post.
They did 52,000 nautical miles, 7968 engine hours and burnt 96000 lts of diesel. (going around the world)
In this time they slipped the boat 7 times but never had any engine trouble.
Ther is absolutely no need to be scared of a single diesel engined boat.
A diesel only requires fuel, air & water to operate. Look after it and it will look after you.
Cheers
Benn
They did 52,000 nautical miles, 7968 engine hours and burnt 96000 lts of diesel. (going around the world)
In this time they slipped the boat 7 times but never had any engine trouble.
Ther is absolutely no need to be scared of a single diesel engined boat.
A diesel only requires fuel, air & water to operate. Look after it and it will look after you.
Cheers
Benn
Well that's fine, you can believe that but I never will.
Our slip is right across from the big pier where the commercial fishboats--- all single engine and no thrusters, ranging in length from 30 to 58 feet--- come in to unload, load ice, get fuel, etc., and we have been watching them come and go in all sorts of wind and current with all sorts of interfering dumbass recreational traffic in the narrow fairway for the last twelve years.
And those guys do everything with their boats that twin drivers do and most of the time they do it faster, more efficiently, and more accurately. Certainly in comparison with recreational boat drivers. Obviously, 90 percent of this is because they drive their boats all year under every conceivable condition. But 10 percent of it is because I think you can do anything in a single that you can do in a twin. The only difference is the technique (in some cases, not all).
I also had an opportunity to watch the lobsterboats coming in and maneuvering in the crowded harbors on Prince Edward Island a couple of years back. Same thing. What those guys could do with their single engine, no thruster boats, put the bulk of recreational boaters to shame, single or twin.
Put a thruster on a twin and you can then do the things a single with a thruster can do. But take a single with a thruster and a twin without a thruster and, assuming the driver knows what he's doing, the single can out maneuver the twin because there are things there is no way to do without a thruster.
psneeld
Guru
Huge difference in docking a boat and working a spot.
Plus sometimes environmental conditions will exceed what the thrust of a single/ thruster combo has that a twin spinning can still handle.
Stern towing is another place that I doubt many pros would agree a single is the ticket over a twin...even with a thruster.
Plus sometimes environmental conditions will exceed what the thrust of a single/ thruster combo has that a twin spinning can still handle.
Stern towing is another place that I doubt many pros would agree a single is the ticket over a twin...even with a thruster.
hollywood8118
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Steve Dashew's has been here in Port Townsend a few times and I had the opportunity to look at his boat a couple times. I also has a dock neighbor that had what was without a doubt the best D.Duck ever made. So I don't proselytize without some knowledge. When we cruised the S.Pac. we spent a lot of time on deck, both at anchor and at sea. A well designed boat needs to be comfortable at anchor as well as underway. What I was trying to convey was that his boats, and the Ducks are both well proven passage makers... but they are rather uncomfortable ( in my view) for leisure hours at anchor (or at the dock). A couple weeks ago I was on a D.Duck in Mexico that while a great sea boat.. at anchor one is just out there .. on a camping chair.. not my idea of ideal after spending over $ 500,000. Both boats are well designed passagemakers.. but I wouldnt want either one. Dashew also puts the accommodation of a much smaller boat in his boats, his length to beam ratio is the key to the speed and fuel savings.. at the cost of big marina fees when the boat is docked.
Luckily we all have different ideas of what is the right boat for each one of us or we would all be driving the same boat .
HOLLYWOOD
So all those guys running the hundreds of single engine, no-thruster tugs on the Fraser River and up and down the BC coast have all got the wrong kind of boat?
I'll have to let them know the next time I talk to one.
OP
OP
markpierce
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Makes me wonder why multiple-engined boats even bother to have towing insurance.
Don't try to make me feel guilty having a single-engined boat and somehow financially burdening you.
OP
OP
markpierce
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Dang right! (But don't know what Ducks have to do with it.)
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OP
OP
markpierce
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Most "Diesel Ducks" (they're "passage makers") have large pilothouses which accommodate a dinette. So, there is plenty of natural light while maintaining protection from the elements. Most all our boats aren't designed for serious seas (unlike the Ducks) and have "porches" as well as sliding-glass doors and large windows.
If I was twice as wealthy and desired open-sea voyages, I'd have a Diesel Duck.
If I was twice as wealthy and desired open-sea voyages, I'd have a Diesel Duck.
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ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
I agree, thats why I was never a big fan of the Diesel Ducks
There was a very salty passagemaker for sale in the PACNW when we bought our boat. Steel hull, Gardner engine, very nice looking boat, and priced well within out budget.
The problem was that it had no cockpit, like a DD. That made for us at least all the difference.
