Gas v/s diesel for trawlers

Alemao said:

Very good. Lets find a miracle )

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Thank you, Alemao. I appreciate that statement and agree with you about finding some sort of “energy creation miracle". That said: Our DAC for Atmospheric CO2 and using the CO2 as a hydrocarbon fuel feedstock is not actually a miracle - Just a LOT of Hard Inventive Work! LOL

The way to "don't burn fuel": TURBOSAIL, A fixed cylinder that looked like a smokestack and functioned like an airplane wing. A movable shutter and system of fan-drawn aspiration improved the efficiency of this new sail. Small-scale models tested in a wind tunnel functioned perfectly

SomeSailor said:

While I don't think series-hybrid boats will have any real market until the price of crude gets ridiculous and the infrastructure gets in place, it's pretty cool stuff.

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It doesn't matter if crude oil is free or unobtainable, each energy conversion imposes a loss and only the ignorant dreamers believe there are efficiency gains by compounding them in any fashion.

As Art made so very clear to those who will see, you aren't improving efficiency, you aren't getting a free lunch, you are simply making smaller payments to more suppliers and conveniently ignoring the total.

The dragging prop crowd just ignore that bill altogether.

You may be able to save money on fuel purchases, you'll buy less liquid hydrocarbon but you will pay as much or more for the energy sourced elsewhere, either upfront for expensive storage devices, or over the life cycle of alternate sources or means of conversion. There is no free lunch.

I drove to Seattle and back the other day in a Chevy Volt. A couple of years ago, folks swore that would never happen, and I would have agreed with them. We traveled some 75 miles or so round trip, and while it's not technically a series hybrid, it's the closest I've been around in a car.

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That's nice. What has that got to do with powering a boat? Park the Volt with the lights on in a Belltown parking lot for a couple of days then drive it to Snoqualmie and let us know how it works out. That is more like the operating conditions of a recreational boat.

Anyhow... sorry you have all the bitterness in your life. That must really eat at ya over time. Not sure how old you are Rick, but it'll take it's toll on ya eventually.

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Silly man, why do you think that my illuminating your ignorance of the topic means I am "bitter"? You know less about my life than you know about marine propulsion. If that is an attempt to discredit my input to this thread then it says more about your life than mine.

Just because I ridicule the ridiculous and laugh at the never ending stream of fools who think they have discovered how to turn entropy into fuel doesn't mean I have to coddle them.

It was asked why diesel electric would not work and Rick has dismissed all hybrids as a fool's errand. I believe it is one option. Someday you'll see hybrid trawlers out there just like you commonly see hybrid vehicles on the road now.

We're seeing the evolution of hybrids beginning. From parallel to serial hybrids, they are being adapted to their best suited roles.

No one is saying "free energy" but more about being able to extend range and take advantage of less expensive hydro, nuclear and solar solar available at the dock.

Currently, trawlers do not have the ability to store or make use that power. As the technology evolves in cars, maybe you'll eventually see someone who's hacked a Prius motor into other vehicles. Maybe it'll be a trawler?

We seem to have two subjects going here - I' d like to comment on ethanol problems...I don't have any.

I guess solvent/tank issues and hoses and gaskets that can't tolerate ethanol are real, but I've not had any problems with that. Nor have I had any problems with phase separation or old fuel. My experience otherwise has been that storage is not a problem if gas that evaporates from a float bowl is not allowed to be replaced. Turn off the gas valve so the float bowl is not an evaporation chamber for the entire tank. Once 'gunk' forms in the carb, no amount of additives will help, it must be disassembled and cleaned, although draining the bowl and refilling it with carb cleaner via the drain port will help a marginal problem if allowed to saok long enough.

As for Honda generators - at least the "i" series...the storage recommendations are to completely dry the fuel system, but if the on/off switch is off and the vent on the tank is closed I don't have a problem because once the float bowl is dry, it stays that way. In working with three models of the "i" series, I have found that if the generator doesn't start on the first or second pull, no matter how long it's been inactive, a shot of fuel in the sparkplug hole will get it going.

So while the ethanol problems are real for some folks, it hasn't been the case with me. And as far as old fuel goes, I'd rather run it thru the Quadrajet on my 350 Chevy/Volvo than put it in my modern fuel injected vehicles.

Additives? I have a bottle of Pri-G which I seldom remember to use.
PRI Advanced Fuel Treatments

Oh, and pure gas is available around here at about every 10th station, but I can see no reason to pay a premium for it for use in either my (trailer) boat or cars.

jeffnick said:

We seem to have two subjects going here - I' d like to comment on ethanol problems...I don't have any.

I guess solvent/tank issues and hoses and gaskets that can't tolerate ethanol are real, but I've not had any problems with that. Nor have I had any problems with phase separation or old fuel. My experience otherwise has been that storage is not a problem if gas that evaporates from a float bowl is not allowed to be replaced. Turn off the gas valve so the float bowl is not an evaporation chamber for the entire tank. Once 'gunk' forms in the carb, no amount of additives will help, it must be disassembled and cleaned, although draining the bowl and refilling it with carb cleaner via the drain port will help a marginal problem if allowed to saok long enough.

As for Honda generators - at least the "i" series...the storage recommendations are to completely dry the fuel system, but if the on/off switch is off and the vent on the tank is closed I don't have a problem because once the float bowl is dry, it stays that way. In working with three models of the "i" series, I have found that if the generator doesn't start on the first or second pull, no matter how long it's been inactive, a shot of fuel in the sparkplug hole will get it going.

So while the ethanol problems are real for some folks, it hasn't been the case with me. And as far as old fuel goes, I'd rather run it thru the Quadrajet on my 350 Chevy/Volvo than put it in my modern fuel injected vehicles.

Additives? I have a bottle of Pri-G which I seldom remember to use.
PRI Advanced Fuel Treatments

Oh, and pure gas is available around here at about every 10th station, but I can see no reason to pay a premium for it for use in either my (trailer) boat or cars.

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I pretty much agree with what you say. However, I don't fully agree with what I placed in bold on your quote. In that: I have found that a very "gunked-up" carburetor with all ports left open and made sure to be filled with the following mixture will become un-gunked/un-varnished without disassembling the carb - - > i.e. 5 gallon bucket 3/4 filled with 95% gasoline (pure or ethanol included) and 5% Toluene. Let set for 24 hrs mininum. Pick up carb and turn in mixture many times as well as holding above and letting fluids flow out then again refill by turning over and over inside mixture.

Mixture turns tan/brown color with dissolved gunk and varnish. Place carb back on motor and pour colored mixture into a car or truck tank that already has bout ½ or more fill. Disolved gunk/varnish have no effect when diluted and toluene will simply help keep fuel system clean. Drive, errrr boat on! Use good quality rubber gloves while working in the gas/toluene mixture.

SomeSailor said:

It was asked why diesel electric would not work and Rick has dismissed all hybrids as a fool's errand. I believe it is one option. Someday you'll see hybrid trawlers out there just like you commonly see hybrid vehicles on the road now.

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One of the interesting hybrid designs I have seen, is a twin engine configuration. Each engine is equiped with a motor that can also be used as a generator. When running at or below displacement speed, only one engine is running - turning both the directly connected shaft and the generator. Power from the generator is then directed to other shaft driven by the electric motor. This allows using a single engine to power both shafts. Also allows easy switching between engines, and also allows the generator to be used as a thrid power source.

I have also seen designs similar to this using hydraulics for similar functionality. The only benefit of using electric, is the ability of using stored energy from a battery.

I could see generating power from a dragging propeller on a sailboat, where one might have a variable pitch prop that can be feathered. This propeller could then be set to an efficient angle for power generating. I can't see a standard propeller designed for thrust, being anywhere close to effecient when dragged through the water for power generation.

jeffnick said:

We seem to have two subjects going here -

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As quick as the mods are to separate threads I wonder why they have left this one so badly merged?

SomeSailor said:

It was asked why diesel electric would not work and Rick has dismissed all hybrids as a fool's errand.

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I was actually working on hybrid vessels long before you probably even knew such a concept existed.

I did not dismiss the errand, I dismissed the fools.

RickB said:

As quick as the mods are to separate threads I wonder why they have left this one so badly merged?

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shushhhhh - it's working well...

I'm not convinced that any sort of "energy reclamation" scheme-- the dragging prop thing, for example--- is a viable means of reclaiming energy to use later on a boat.. Prop shafts, at least ours, don't turn all that fast when freewheeling so I don't know how much power they would be able to generate anyway.

But some schemes of this nature do work. The latest generation of GE railroad locomotives, for example, are referred to as hybrids. Prior to this, the electricity generated by the traction motors that were turned by virtue of the locomotive being pushed downhill by the train was fed into heavy metal grids to put a load on the the traction motor "generators." Like the burners on an electric stove the grids converted the electricity to heat which simply blown off into the atmosphere by fans. The load on the "generators" thus provided braking for the train (dynamic braking it's called).

On the new generation of "hybrid" locomotives, the power generated by the traction motors going downhill is used to recharge batteries instead of simply being fed to metal grids to make heat.

Then when the train is going uphill or accelerating the energy stored in the batteries is added to the power from the locomotive's diesel-powered generator thus reducing the amount of power needed from the main generator which reduces the amount of fuel burned by the diesel because it doesn't have to work so hard.

However.... the secret to the success of this scheme is that the energy required to turn the traction motors when going downhill and thus recharge the batteries comes from gravity acting on the weight of the train. And this force, unlike the energy needed to turn the dragging prop on a boat, is free.

Marin said:

I'm not convinced that any sort of "energy reclamation" scheme-- the dragging prop thing, for example--- is a viable means of reclaiming energy to use later on a boat.. Prop shafts, at least ours, don't turn all that fast when freewheeling so I don't know how much power they would be able to generate anyway.

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The design of the boat in question has a single electric motor for propulsion on one side. If drug it serves as a motor generator and can then be used to replenish the batteries while underway on diesel. If there were no direct drive motor at all, that would be unnecessary.

This single drive would not have a transmission and any free-wheeling would be re-captured. You would only need to bother with this when you had depleted your battery and were running on diesel from the driect drive motor.

The ReGen Company is a pure hybrid and has dual electric propulsion. It is more advanced than the Grand Banks that was talked about earlier.

Here's a link to it again: Hybrid Boat | ReGen Hybrid Electric Marine Power

SomeSailor said:

The design of the boat in question has a single electric motor for propulsion on one side. If drug it serves as a motor generator and can then be used to replenish the batteries while underway on diesel.

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Since the diesel is powering the boat when the propulsion batteries are discharged, I would assume the alternator(s) on the diesel would be recharging the propulsion batteries. The load on the alternator(s) has to be met by the diesel which means it has to work that much harder.

The drag of the freewheeling prop also has to be met by diesel.

So the question would seem to be, does the power being produced by the motor-generator on the freewheeling prop enhance the recharging current and reduce the recharging time of the propulsion batteries and thus reduce the alternator load on the propulsion diesel enough to cancel out the penalty of the additional fuel the diesel has to burn to meet the loads of its alternator(s) and the dragging prop?

I don't have the engineering or electrical knowledge to even hazard a guess at an answer but that would seem to be the question that determines if this type of hybrid propulsion system is economically viable.

I think a direct drive alternator would be more efficient than recapture from a dragging prop.

Marin said:

However.... the secret to the success of this scheme is that the energy required to turn the traction motors when going downhill and thus recharge the batteries comes from gravity acting on the weight of the train. And this force, unlike the energy needed to turn the dragging prop on a boat, is free.

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The Milwaukee Road train that ran from outside Missoula to Avery Idaho did just that, when the route was electrified the power recovered by the downhill train was enough to power the uphill train with the difference made up by a hydro power station on the St. Joe River.

There is simply no comparison between terrestrial and nautical however when talking about regeneration. There is no braking energy to be recovered by a boat.

The dragging prop idea is pure vapor and fantasy. It sounds just attractive enough to attract a few dreamers. I find it amazing that the subject is still alive in this thread.

It is kind of scary that our society's collective technical knowledge is so low that ideas like that can even exist outside grade school.

RickB said:

The Milwaukee Road train that ran from outside Missoula to Avery Idaho did just that, when the route was electrified the power recovered by the downhill train was enough to power the uphill train with the difference made up by a hydro power station on the St. Joe River.

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Just to clarify, as this is a railroad I happen to have studied in depth, the Milwaukee Road's two 3000 vdc electrified divisions in the Rocky and Cascade mountains sent the power from regeneration-- the generation of electricity by the traction motors going downhill-- back into the overhead wires and from there to the railroad's power substations from which it was fed into the commercial power grid.

The regenerated power itself was not used to power trains going uphill, it was simply taken off the railroad's power bill. The power from the trains operating in regeneration going downhill literally turned the commercial power grid meters in the substations backwards.

It was a very simple system designed and installed when the railroad set up its first electrified division in the Rocky Mountains in 1914 followed three years later by an identical system in the Cascades in Washington. These systems served the railroad virtually unchanged into the early 1970s.

RickB said:

It is kind of scary that our society's collective technical knowledge is so low that ideas like that can even exist outside grade school.

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And exist they do... despite the myopic view some take of technology.

Keep in mind that the Grand Banks was only partially a hybrid. Apparently it had only one of it's twin power trains removed and replaced with a 100KW genset and a permanent magnet drive motor. It was also fitted with a large lithium battery bank that would equal out the weight.

That presents you with some options. For one, you can now store energy and leave the dock under pure electric power. You can then deplete that, or augment it with the diesel drive (the untouched drive train). After you deplete the stored energy, you can switch to pure diesel. Up until this point you have been running purely on stored electrical.

Once the diesel engine is started and you start burning diesel, the other prop is doing nothing for propulsion. The generator could be running to recharge the battery pack, or the spinning prop could be used.

In any case, you're not getting anything for free, just less expensive hydro fuel.

I suppose you'll never convince some people to think outside the box. There'll never be a free lunch, but there are other ways to propel a boat. You could build a pure electric, but you wouldn't get a full day's cruising in. A hybrid drive would allow that.

Marin said:

Prior to this, the electricity generated by the traction motors that were turned by virtue of the locomotive being pushed downhill by the train was fed into heavy metal grids to put a load on the the traction motor "generators." Like the burners on an electric stove the grids converted the electricity to heat which simply blown off into the atmosphere by fans. The load on the "generators" thus provided braking for the train (dynamic braking it's called).

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Tks for the reminder Marin of being in the hole doing it all by feel changing them frig'in brushes & having my fingers snapped by the odd b-holder not sitting just right or the hours of rebuilding them series motor in the shop because of an open grid. Think I will just keep burning diesel the way it was intended i.e. twins together, hmmm ~ now there's another reminder 'twins together' howbeit a much better experience with reflecting on my first sentence.

??/ the talk was of producing power from the vessels movement through the water or from just the current. There was no mention of sail.

I take it from that post , Elwin, that you used to work for a railroad. If so I'd be interested in hearing about that. You can PM me if you like so as not to get the administrators' knickers all in a twist.

Marin said:

I take it from that post , Elwin, that you used to work for a railroad. If so I'd be interested in hearing about that. You can PM me if you like so as not to get the administrators' knickers all in a twist.

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Share! There's always the off-topic section.

SomeSailor said:

In any case, you're not getting anything for free, just less expensive hydro fuel.

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Really? Show us the numbers.

Show us the heat balance (Sankey diagram) on that. I know that may not be far enough outside the box for you but reality lives in its own box, take a look inside once in a while.


You work for Boeing right? How about submitting your ideas to their engineers, tell them that you know for a fact that if they put a propeller on the nose or tail of the 787 they can recover some of the power that is otherwise wasted by all that air zipping past. Or even better yet, shut down one engine but let it windmill so the generator keeps making power ... think of the fuel that will save, you will be a hero.

You keep making the claims, now show us the numbers, show us the proof that your statements are true. Put up or shut up is the bottom of the box.

RickB said:

Put up or shut up is the bottom of the box.

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No... that would be the bottom of YOUR box.

Hydroelectric at my marina costs 7.2 cents per KWH
Diesel fuel is $4.11 per gallon at my marina

My boat has two 120HP motors, operating at say 75%, burning 3 GPH (lets call that 90HP)

I can make near hull speed on one motor. (just to keep it simple)

One hour of operation then costs me $12.33 per hour of operation on diesel. 90HP for one hour.

90HP equals 66.195KWH where (Power (kW) = Power (HP) x 0.7457 ) so the same electric would cost me 48 cents.

Assuming even a single hour of electric operation I would save $11.88 on every charge cycle. That savings also preserves 3 gallons of fuel. On a 10 day cruise (dockside each night) that's 30 gallons saved (or traded for $4.80 of electric)

RickB said:

Show us the heat balance (Sankey diagram) on that. I know that may not be far enough outside the box for you but reality lives in its own box, take a look inside once in a while.

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OK. I'll give it a shot for ya. If I've missed efficiency losses of an electric motor let me know what they are and I'll update it for you. In either case electric motors are hugely more efficient. I also left off transmissions (you wouldn't need them in an electric drive).

SomeSailor said:

OK. I'll give it a shot for ya.

Once the diesel engine is started and you start burning diesel, the other prop is doing nothing for propulsion. The generator could be running to recharge the battery pack, or the spinning prop could be used.

In any case, you're not getting anything for free, just less expensive hydro fuel.

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That shot went really wild ... and the spark ignition diagram has less to do with what you propose than the vaporware aircraft you posted last time you got wedged into a corner.

No one argued against the idea that charging batteries from shore or solar or wind or waste heat may be less costly than running an engine driven generator. You seem to be trying your damndest to weedle around and make that seem like it is the point of disagreement. Give that up.

Your statement quoted above is the basis of the reason I say you are as duped as the other dreamers and the trailing/cruise prop crowd, you simply cannnot comprehend or will not accept the fact that energy is lost at each conversion and burning diesel fuel to make electricity to produce a reversible chemical process to drive a boat is never going to be as efficient as using that fuel to power the prop without all the intermediate conversions.

Unless you can show how the fantasy quoted above results in burning less fuel for the same result you really ought to just give up. This is high school physics, man, it isn't rocket science or advanced thermodynamics.

Debating with you really is a waste of time and bandwidth, it truly is like wrestling with pigs that demand attention like a 2-year old.

I didn't figure you bother. I provided your diagram thinking pictures might make things simpler for ya.

I have been talking about hybrid diesel-electrics this entire time. In your snarky comments you refuse to address anything intelligently so I guess we've run our course yet again.

I tried to show you how having a hybrid diesel-electric could indeed be more efficient and feasible, but your childish attitude and odd tendency to rebut everything with name calling and insult is telling. The NRE of installing such a system would never work in today's world, but the numbers do show a positive return.

I'll let you get back to your pig wrestling...

Looks like Marin we are going to have to send another loaded train downhill to help Rick's train up this one, Sailor just placed a big load of something on it..

Marin said:

So the question would seem to be, does the power being produced by the motor-generator on the freewheeling prop enhance the recharging current and reduce the recharging time of the propulsion batteries and thus reduce the alternator load on the propulsion diesel enough to cancel out the penalty of the additional fuel the diesel has to burn to meet the loads of its alternator(s) and the dragging prop?

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I guess our resident alternative propulsion evangelist isn't going to ask, and since I believe you have more access to Boeing's engineering staff than he, perhaps you can ask them if trailing a wind turbine behind the 787 or windmilling an engine to turn the generator will contribute to increased efficiency and reduced fuel burn.

It might be amusing if you film that interview.

Ocean Breeze NL said:

Looks like Marin we are going to have to send another loaded train downhill to help Rick's train up this one,

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Nah, all you have to do is drag another prop and keep going. Drag enough of them and you can shut down the diesel.

SomeSailor said:

And exist they do... despite the myopic view some take of technology.

Keep in mind that the Grand Banks was only partially a hybrid. Apparently it had only one of it's twin power trains removed and replaced with a 100KW genset and a permanent magnet drive motor. It was also fitted with a large lithium battery bank that would equal out the weight.

That presents you with some options. For one, you can now store energy and leave the dock under pure electric power. You can then deplete that, or augment it with the diesel drive (the untouched drive train). After you deplete the stored energy, you can switch to pure diesel. Up until this point you have been running purely on stored electrical.

Once the diesel engine is started and you start burning diesel, the other prop is doing nothing for propulsion. The generator could be running to recharge the battery pack, or the spinning prop could be used.

In any case, you're not getting anything for free, just less expensive hydro fuel.

I suppose you'll never convince some people to think outside the box. There'll never be a free lunch, but there are other ways to propel a boat. You could build a pure electric, but you wouldn't get a full day's cruising in. A hybrid drive would allow that.

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great idea but i would think you won't be getting the efficiency of a single engine because you will have the equivalent weight of dual engines and the remaining engine is not in line with the keel. Now the question is: Would the use of the stored electrical energy to power the vessel be enough to offset the losses from the additional weight etc. over a single engine trawler? What if you went one step further and used a single engine vessel with the electric drive system in series with the main diesel engine then both would operate more efficiently. Right?

Ocean Breeze NL said:

Looks like Marin we are going to have to send another loaded train downhill to help Rick's train up this one, Sailor just placed a big load of something on it..

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If I were to engage in the technical aspects of this discussion on either side it would be equivelent of Goofy sitting in on a strategy meeting of Amazon.com's board of directors. I would contribute nothing of value and be perceived as an even bigger goof than I already am.