replacing a window in our Defever

We are new to this boat. Had this 41' 1981 Defever for about 4 months now. It's alot of new systems to learn about. We've had her out in several wild seas and each time we're impressed with how she handles those squirrely waves that come from several directions. On our last outing we were running a small heater to keep the windows defrosted on the inside and the heat must have been too close and we started a running crack in the front pilots window. #@$%&!!!!! It appears DeFever is no longer in business and we need advice on how to go about replacing this window. Does anyone know of a manufacturer that has the templates for the DeFever? Peggy

Is this a built-built up window with a separate exterior wood frame, a sill and tracks for sliding glass and so forth, or is an aluminum-framed "one piece" window that fits into place from the outside as a complete unit and is screwed to the side of the cabin?

As I understand it DeFever was not a boat builder but a boat designer. His designs were manufactured by a number of different boatyards in the US, Mexico, and Asia, although the boats were generally all called "DeFevers." So the windows in your boat will have been selected by the yard that built the boat.

They may be built-up windows constructed by the yard itself as is the case with Grand Banks boats, or if they were metal-framed "unit" windows they may have been purchased from a vendor who makes this sort of thing. Whether they used "off the shelf" windows from the vendor or had the vendor make windows to their own specifications is something perhaps one of the forum's deFever owners can tell you.

Greetings,
If the crack is still in it's infancy, ie: not all across the pane and not covered in dirt, it is possible an auto glass repair shop could fix the crack. 99.99% sure only one of your window laminate plies is cracked. These glass shops do this sort of thing for a living.

Window replacement

It is the front pilot's window. It is one solid glass, not a slider and not aluminum. Crack is already 6-8 inches across and fragmented. It is a built up window, contained in the front by a wooden frame that has plugs showing, probably screwed to the wood behind. I would have to remove the frame and expose the window to copy a template. It would be a long process and I would be unable to use the boat for quite awhile, may be my only option. I was hoping to find a template from the builder, probably in Taiwan. It is a trapezoid, would have to be custom built.

Greetings,
If your window is repairable, call out one of these places. Try numerous businesses. You might only be out of service for a few hours.
http://www.autoglassguru.com/ak/kodiak

Kodiak Car window repair | Car window repair in Kodiak, AK - YP.com

No affiliation with this type of business at all but I've seen some windshield repairs and they appear fine.

Should the glass prove unrepairable (try first, and don`t discount whoever tries to do it may have clues on how to best proceed otherwise), the old glass has to come out. You could temporarily fit perspex sheet cut to size, still use the boat or certainly keep it sealed, until the new glass is cut. You might find a specialist marine window guy,we`ve got them here, you may too.

I have a 2005 Defever. They are still making them in China at the POCTA yard

About Company's profiles - POCTA Yacht

I have actually contacted them in the past, and they did respond. There is also a Seattle sales office.


Horizon Yacht & Ship Brokerage (Gardena, CA)

My windows are done by Diamond Sea Glaze, one of the top window producers for yachts. They are here in the Vancouver area

Diamond Sea Glaze

One of these three sources should point you in the right direction.

We have built up windows with wood frames screwed and bedded to the cabin side. When we rebuild them, if we replace the glass we replace it temporarily with a piece of Plexiglas cut to the outside dimensions of the frame. We drill holes in the Plexiglas using the removed frame as a template and mount it in place of the frame using the same screws and holes the frame mounts to.

We seal the top and sides of the Plexiglas to the cabin with a very thin bead of Sikaflex. This keeps water out but makes it easy to remove when we re-install the frame after we refinish it at home.

We've gone a whole winter of using the boat with one of these temporary Plexiglas "windows" in place because we couldn't install the new glass and re-install and paint the frame until the weather got better in the spring.

I doubt if a 1981 Defever was built in the POCTA yard, there may be something on board mentioning the actual builder but it is not likely they will have any plans or specs on a boat that age even if the yard is still in business.
When you research having the glass cut for you make sure that you mention that it will be used for a front windshield on a boat. The glass must be strong enough to withstand a wave over the bow, do not try to go for a less expensive option. A repair from an auto glass company might stop the crack from expanding but will it be strong enough to protect you and your family?

Thanks for the links. I called one. $300+ to replace the old one and $72 hrly to install. We are still remote from the city of Kodiak so we're probably going to attempt doing it ourselves.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
If your window is repairable, call out one of these places. Try numerous businesses. You might only be out of service for a few hours.
http://www.autoglassguru.com/ak/kodiak

Kodiak Car window repair | Car window repair in Kodiak, AK - YP.com

No affiliation with this type of business at all but I've seen some windshield repairs and they appear fine.

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Sure appreciate the info you supplied. We hadn't been able to gather much background on these boats. We'll bookmark Horizon Yacht Sales company.

Our boat was purchased from Sea Marine in Port Townsend. They weren't much help in supplying the history.

baldpaul said:

I have a 2005 Defever. They are still making them in China at the POCTA yard

About Company's profiles - POCTA Yacht

I have actually contacted them in the past, and they did respond. There is also a Seattle sales office.


Horizon Yacht & Ship Brokerage (Gardena, CA)

My windows are done by Diamond Sea Glaze, one of the top window producers for yachts. They are here in the Vancouver area

Diamond Sea Glaze

One of these three sources should point you in the right direction.

Click to expand...

Nice looking boat! Thanks for supplying us with the info you had on Defevers. Would there be a trademark stamp or code somewhere on the boat to see where she was built?

Marin said:

Is this a built-built up window with a separate exterior wood frame, a sill and tracks for sliding glass and so forth, or is an aluminum-framed "one piece" window that fits into place from the outside as a complete unit and is screwed to the side of the cabin?

As I understand it DeFever was not a boat builder but a boat designer. His designs were manufactured by a number of different boatyards in the US, Mexico, and Asia, although the boats were generally all called "DeFevers." So the windows in your boat will have been selected by the yard that built the boat.

They may be built-up windows constructed by the yard itself as is the case with Grand Banks boats, or if they were metal-framed "unit" windows they may have been purchased from a vendor who makes this sort of thing. Whether they used "off the shelf" windows from the vendor or had the vendor make windows to their own specifications is something perhaps one of the forum's deFever owners can tell you.

Click to expand...

sworca said:

Thanks for supplying us with the info you had on Defevers. Would there be a trademark stamp or code somewhere on the boat to see where she was built?

Click to expand...

You now know pretty much everything I know about deFevers.. There are participants in this forum who know a hell of a lot more about them.

Our boat has a builder's plate that says where the boat was built and who built it. But Grand Banks boats were all built in the same yards by the same company that owned the yards. In the case of a deFever design I would think the builder's plate-- if there is one-- would include at least the name of the yard that built the boat.

You may also be able to use the HIN (hull identification number) that should be on your transom somewhere to sleuth out the boat's builder. Not sure how to go about this, however. The HIN itself contains a letter code for the builder. In the case of a GB I believe the code is GND. But whether this portion of the HIN on a deFever calls out the name the boat was sold under (deFever) or the name of the company that actually built the boat, I have no idea.

If the boat has been documented by previous owners there will be a record of this with the USCG and I believe you can get the information from them. You may even be able to do this on the web now-- boat documentation is a public record. The documentation may contain the name of the builder.

If the boat has not been documented but has been registered in Washington for some time you might be able to get some info from the state using the HIN.

I'm just making guesses and assumptions here. But they may lead you to a means of finding out what you want to know.

Some of the earlier numbers may be less "conforming" to the standard than current production but here are a couple of links that should help decode the number:

Hull ID Explained

USCG Builder Database

You may also want to check with the Defever Cruisers group. One of the women in that group is compiling a database of Defevers complete with historic ownership. She may be able to fill in some of the details for you.

On our hull the number is stamped into the stbd side of the transom maybe 6 inches above the waterline but YMMV. If you know your CG documentation number (required to be glassed into a stringer) then you can likely obtain your HIN from the CG database.

Bob is right. If you examine your boat's transom and don't see a HIN stamped into the hull-- the upper starboard corner is the favored or required place on newer boats; that's where it is on our 1987 Arima for example--- try under the swimstep if your boat has one. That's where the HIN is on our 1973 GB, just above the waterline on the starboard side.

Greetings,
Mr sworka. I did not supply the links suggesting you use the companies for replacement of the window, only for repair of the crack. Crack repairs can be done with the window in place. NO removal of ANYTHING sould be necessary and 6" of crack repair shouldn't take more than an hour I would think. Mr. Tucker raises a valid point as to the ultimate strength of a repair in defense of green water coming over the bow but I think at that point, window strength would be down the list of WTF? Most of the front windows I've seen on boats of this genre and vintage have been in the 1/4" thickness range and minimal at best to fend off on board breakers.

I much favor GE MarGard Lexan for front windows.
10 to 30 times stronger than glass
hard coated surface to run wipers on
cuts / drills with woodworking tools
minimal heat conduction so does not fog
DIY

What more could you ask for

Mark Plastics in Corona, Ca @ 951-735-7705 has many DeFever window patterns.Nice guy, very helpful and would be a good place to start.

Brooksie said:

I much favor GE MarGard Lexan for front windows. 10 to 30 times stronger than glass
hard coated surface to run wipers on

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That sure runs counter to everything I've been told about Lexan by one of the top plastics company in Seattle, TAP, Inc.. When talking to them about replacing our venturi panels they strongly recommended against Lexan. Lexan is stronger than Plexiglas, they said, but it is far more susceptible to scratching than Plexiglas.

For windows on a boat, they said, they always recommend laminated safety glass. For venturi panels, they always recommend Plexiglas.

And, they said, both Lexan and Plexiglas will scratch very quickly if wipers are run over them. Lexan will scratch sooner and worse than Plex but both of them will develop scratches very quickly, particularly if the wipers pick up any dirt.

The Margard coating, they told me recently, while it can hold scratching at bay for awhile, does not prevent scratching in the long run. Even the Margard literature only claims "may" help prevent scratching.

Before replacing the glass , I would attempt to finf out why it cracked.

Impact , no problem , but if its movement of the frame , the PH might need some work.

Marin said:

That sure runs counter to everything I've been told about Lexan by one of the top plastics company in Seattle, TAP, Inc.. When talking to them about replacing our venturi panels they strongly recommended against Lexan. Lexan is stronger than Plexiglas, they said, but it is far more susceptible to scratching than Plexiglas.

For windows on a boat, they said, they always recommend laminated safety glass. For venturi panels, they always recommend Plexiglas.

And, they said, both Lexan and Plexiglas will scratch very quickly if wipers are run over them. Lexan will scratch sooner and worse than Plex but both of them will develop scratches very quickly, particularly if the wipers pick up any dirt.

The Margard coating, they told me recently, while it can hold scratching at bay for awhile, does not prevent scratching in the long run. Even the Margard literature only claims "may" help prevent scratching.

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Hard to argue with "experts" but experts most always have an incentive to say what they say. I can only speak from my experience. My 1/2" MarGard Lexan windows have been in place 10+ years with wipers on all 3, the boat is a wet boat so wipers are run often, there are no marks from the wipers, the side windows sweat and fog (safety plate) the Lexan windshields do not.
I made the curved windows on my Willard of regular Lexan-UV (MarGard won't bend tightly) also the ventiri screens. The PO said he had replaced these plexiglas parts twice because they turned yellow in the FL sun. I replaced them in '07 and they are still clear.

Maybe TAP doesn't sell or stock MarGard, that would be all the incentive they need to recommend against it...

sworca said:

We are new to this boat. Had this 41' 1981 Defever for about 4 months now. It's alot of new systems to learn about. We've had her out in several wild seas and each time we're impressed with how she handles those squirrely waves that come from several directions. On our last outing we were running a small heater to keep the windows defrosted on the inside and the heat must have been too close and we started a running crack in the front pilots window. #@$%&!!!!! It appears DeFever is no longer in business and we need advice on how to go about replacing this window. Does anyone know of a manufacturer that has the templates for the DeFever? Peggy

Click to expand...

Have you tried to seek help at the DeFever Cruisers club? I'm sure some of the members have had similiar problems. DeFever Cruisers - A Club for Yachting Enthusiasts with a Passion for DeFever Vessels and the Cruising Life!

Brooksie said:

Maybe TAP doesn't sell or stock MarGard, that would be all the incentive they need to recommend against it...

Click to expand...

They are one of the most experienced plastics experts in the greater Seattle area. If it's plastic or anything to do with plastic, they work with it including making big custom curved flying bridge venturies for yachts.

I don't question your experience with Lexan and MarGard. But since the boat manufacturers use laminated safety glass, which in our case has not scratched with wiper use for 40 years, and a top plastics company recommends against Lexan (and plexiglas) for any applications where abrasion is a potential problem, particularly Lexan even with MarGard, I think I'll stick with laminated safety glass for all the windows in our boat and will continue to recommend the same whenever anyone asks.

Google is your friend guys. According to this there are different "grades" of Margard so possibly you both are right.

I'm fascinated by this discussion. The glass in our centre window is scratched from the wipers. I'm not anxious to go to the effort to replace it but the possibility of getting something that wouldn't fog up as much in our winter boating is appealing.

bobofthenorth, Thanks. I'm quite sure I used the MR-5 grade (lower grade) which was all that was available at the time where I got it.

I might use laminated safety glass for side windows but I don't think its impact resistance is any greater than plate glass. Forward facing glass should be tempered glass or polycarbonate (Lexan). All window manufacturers use tempered glass. The non-fogging is a nice bonus but the main thing is the strength.

That's backwards. Safety laminated glass should face forward, and probably be used on the sides too. It is stronger, but if that breaks with a wave, you'll have thousands of little pieces of glass on the deck and a complete hole waiting for the next wave.

Keith said:

That's backwards. Safety laminated glass should face forward, and probably be used on the sides too.

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Agreed, and so do the boat manufacturers.

Greetings,
Um, I think we're a bit mixed up. TEMPERED glass will break into thousands of pieces and leave a gaping "hole". LAMINATED glass will break but, depending on the robustness and size of the frame, will remain intact, due to the layer of plastic between the glass layers, for the purposes of keeping the "hole" closed. Now, evidently there is tempered AND laminated glass on the market together in one product. No idea how THAT would work. One of the reasons a lot of manufacturers are going with tempered glass all around is that it's CHEAPER, not necessarily better or safer.
For example, your car has laminated glass on the windshield and tempered glass on the remaining.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Um, I think we're a bit mixed up. TEMPERED glass will break into thousands of pieces and leave a gaping "hole". LAMINATED glass will break but, depending on the robustness and size of the frame, will remain intact, due to the layer of plastic between the glass layers, for the purposes of keeping the "hole" closed. Now, evidently there is tempered AND laminated glass on the market together in one product. No idea how THAT would work. One of the reasons a lot of manufacturers are going with tempered glass all around is that it's CHEAPER, not necessarily better or safer.
For example, your car has laminated glass on the windshield and tempered glass on the remaining.

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I agree with RT on this. On a building extension I did on a childcare centre we had to quote and install safety glass that would break but not shatter or splinter in to shards. The company that did the glazing installed a window tint type liner on top of a standard glass window that enabled the glass to meet the Aust. Standards for safety glass.

iPad Forum Runner

A couple of points, some already made but need restating.

1. The front windows in LRC's are designed to take a wave directly and survive. I find it difficult to understand how the window would have cracked. But differential temperatures can place some serious forces on the material.

2. Someone already beat me to it, and that is to contact the Defever Cruising Club. They are a good bunch of people with specific knowledge about Defevers.

3. Contact North Harbor Diesel, they are experienced with working on these type of vessels and can be a great resource for knowledge and parts. They are great people and will help you not only find the parts but provide the knowledge to replace the window properly. North Harbor Diesel

Always loved the 49 Defever. All the best hope this helps.