superior features of a wood vessel

Nomad Willy · Dec 15, 2012

Thanks Rick. I think Phill Fil has one of those Chrysler boats and posted pics of it a day or two ago.

I'd burn 2 or three times as much fuel and need to "blow" the bilge often but other than that I'd probably much prefer the smooth and quiet gas engine over my 4 cyl diesel. In the old days we thought diesels were for trucks and tractors only. Who would want to be in a confined space w one of them noisy and smelly things.

Boating was probably quite nice in a both sound and temperature insulative wood boat. I don't think they knew about lift mufflers then and most inboard boats had very noisy exhausts. Same today I think and I can't believe people put up w all that noise when a lift muffler all but eliminates it.

Art · Dec 15, 2012

manyboats said:
Thanks Rick. I think Phill Fil has one of those Chrysler boats and posted pics of it a day or two ago.

I'd burn 2 or three times as much fuel and need to "blow" the bilge often but other than that I'd probably much prefer the smooth and quiet gas engine over my 4 cyl diesel. In the old days we thought diesels were for trucks and tractors only. Who would want to be in a confined space w one of them noisy and smelly things.

Boating was probably quite nice in a both sound and temperature insulative wood boat. I don't think they knew about lift mufflers then and most inboard boats had very noisy exhausts. Same today I think and I can't believe people put up w all that noise when a lift muffler all but eliminates it.

Eric – I agree with the need to be VERY, Very careful for gas fumes with a gasser (any competent Captain with well ventilated and equipped boat can readily facilitate these cautions)... and ... I agree that gas engines are VERY, Very quiet compared to diesels. What I find troublesome is that most diesel owners erroneously believe gasoline engines use 2 to 3 time the fuel as diesel at hull speed or below hull speed rates... that just ain’t so... for planning, semi displacement, and full displacement hulls on boats in the size range up to about 45’. Now, if you get into faster speeds on nearly any boat design or for boats bigger than 45’ the torque from large diesel motors is needed for notable fuel consumption reduction compared to gasser. I believe that if you implanted a small, efficiently designed gas engine in your size boat that although you might experience a smidge more fuel usage than equivalent size diesel the simple, inexpensive maintenance and base cost of the gas engine would off-set fuel costs. And the gas motor’s quietness is priceless - worth a fortune!

Marin · Dec 15, 2012

The boating club we belong to is the oldest one in Bellingham, going back to the early 1920s. There are a number of photos on the walls of the clubhouse that were taken on club cruises in the 20s and 30s. These cruises didn't go long distances, usually just across Bellngham bay to the anchorages on Lummi and Eliza islands. So six to eight miles.

In all cases the boats--- sometimes twenty or thirty--- cruised as a group. Not exactly in formation but all together in a bunch, which is what is depicted in the photos on the walls.

The historian of club has given several presentations on its history. The reason for the "all together" grouping on cruises was two-fold. Most of the boats, he said, were home made or locally made by individual boat builders. They were all powered by the gasoline motors of the day. And apparently, reliability was a somewhat iffy proposition. With all the boats running together there was plenty of help in the event of a breakdown, which according to Paul, were fairly frequent.

The second reason was navigation. You wouldn't think this would be an issue on an eight mile run across a bay, but apparently it could be challenging if the visibility came down. So the lead boat was always one equipped with the "latest" navigation equipment, which judging by the photos was an RDF.

A few of the photos show a USCG boat as part of the flotilla heading across the bay. We were told that the Coast Guard would sometimes accompany cruises like this in the event that a boat developed a major problem.

Different era, that's for sure. But perhaps in some ways more adventurous and more fun.........

Art · Dec 15, 2012

Marin said:
The boating club we belong to is the oldest one in Bellingham, going back to the early 1920s. There are a number of photos on the walls of the clubhouse that were taken on club cruises in the 20s and 30s. These cruises didn't go long distances, usually just across Bellngham bay to the anchorages on Lummi and Eliza islands. So six to eight miles.

In all cases the boats--- sometimes twenty or thirty--- cruised as a group. Not exactly in formation but all together in a bunch, which is what is depicted in the photos on the walls.

The historian of club has given several presentations on its history. The reason for the "all together" grouping on cruises was two-fold. Most of the boats, he said, were home made or locally made by individual boat builders. They were all powered by the gasoline motors of the day. And apparently, reliability was a somewhat iffy proposition. With all the boats running together there was plenty of help in the event of a breakdown, which according to Paul, were fairly frequent.

The second reason was navigation. You wouldn't think this would be an issue on an eight mile run across a bay, but apparently it could be challenging if the visibility came down. So the lead boat was always one equipped with the "latest" navigation equipment, which judging by the photos was an RDF.

A few of the photos show a USCG boat as part of the flotilla heading across the bay. We were told that the Coast Guard would sometimes accompany cruises like this in the event that a boat developed a major problem.

Different era, that's for sure. But perhaps in some ways more adventurous and more fun.........

Well put conclusion, Marin.

Nomad Willy · Dec 15, 2012

Art see new thread in power systems.

bfloyd4445 · Dec 15, 2012

manyboats said:
Wood boats are stronger, lighter (or both to a lesser degree) quieter, usually easier to repair, better looking, more insulative, easier for a non-boat builder to build and because of the abundance of people that aren't aware of the real advantages of wood, wood boats are very cheap now.

I agree. I've seen glass boats take hits resulting in cracks that the same hit on a wooden hull would often just leave a mark. I do not know for sure but my observation has been that wood will flex and bend more than glass before fracruering.
The above observation was from my kid years when glass boats were kinda new and we tended to drink alot often resulting at banging the dock at light 29 marina when we went for more beer. The old rockholt and cc took some nasty whacks especially at night when the current was strong.

Keith · Dec 15, 2012

Amazing that with wooden boats being so obviously superior in every way, that that damm near none around compared to fiberglass.

Nomad Willy · Dec 15, 2012

Keith,
Looks like a no-brainer to me.
Just too labor intensive to be cost effective.
Plastic boats are cheaper in every way.
But I'm kin'a glad I've got one.

psneeld · Dec 16, 2012

Fiberglass boats have plenty of examples of landing on rocks or reefs and grinding away for hours with little or no damage while wood boats in a few feet of chop let alone hitting a deadhead have popped a plank and sank.

The USCG has all but legislated against planked wooden vessels for inspected vessels... I wonder why...

Nomad Willy · Dec 16, 2012

You're right psneeld. Wood boats don't have a good reputation for puncture resistance. And I'll admit that one of the reasons I bought the Willard is that it has a robust hull. I hit a rock at anchor w Willy and still can't figure out how it could seem like we hit so hard. No damage. Hit a log in Clearance Strait at cruising speed and it went BOOM! I thought for sure we'd been holed. Threw the hatches open looked everywhere but no water came aboard. Hit a full grown Humpback whale (T boned him) at over 6 knots and stopped in about 2'. No damage I THINK. But there is what appears to be a verticle crack on the leading edge right where we hit the whale. Gonna grind a bit and put a FG expert on it to see if all's well.

But I think puncture resistance w planked hulls and plywood hulls ate not to be compared as anywhere equal. Plywood has incredible puncture resistance but it's only as strong as the keels, chine logs and fasteners that hold it in place. If you use epoxy, FG, filler and radised overlays it may be stronger than a 100% FG boat. But of course it's not then a wood boat ... or is it? The only larger boat I built was a plywood boat and I don't think I could have built it out of FG.. I don't think it could have taken the beating at sea that I gave the plywood boat. I've been known to jump the wake of the ferry Wikersham (an older sea going Alaska State ferry) going 21 knots at close to that speed myself. A very airborne and bent leg experience. The plywood boat seemed to think it was fun too.

And I think cold moulded and other composite hulls are stronger than FG by a long shot.

But a planked hull like carvel or batten seam construction would not be so puncture resistant but the ability to take a smashing from waves and seas are probably right up there.

But re what psneeld said I agree w as I've seen FG boats that have been pounded to death on exposed beaches and it's obvious they put up a very commendable fight.

Marin · Dec 16, 2012

manyboats said:
But re what psneeld said I agree w as I've seen FG boats that have been pounded to death on exposed beaches and it's obvious they put up a very commendable fight.

Like this?

markpierce · Dec 16, 2012

Nomad Willy · Dec 16, 2012

Good Gawwddd Marin that's not a pretty sight!

However tough or strong that boat was .. it lost the battle.

I see it's FG. Wood GB would probably be scattered.

Art · Dec 16, 2012

A junk-built wood boat or a junk-built fiberglass boat are both just that - JUNK-BUILT BOATS! A well-built wood boat or a well-built fiberglass boat are both just that - WELL-BUILT BOATS!

THE DIFFERENCE IS (for well-built boats):
1. Wood softens/rots, fasteners loosen/corrode, and worms can bore in. That said - there are ways to limit these wood afflictions and there is (nearly) always a way to rebuild damaged wood... albeit sometimes at great effort/expense. And, some wood types and original build-out methods are considerably less likely to experience the detrimental afflictions therefore being easier to maintain and requiring less repair efforts.
2. Fiberglass can get brittle, have blisters develop, and allow enough water intrusion into the fiber mats and resin that the entire area softens to point of failure/delaminating. That said – there are ways to limit these fiberglass afflictions and there is (nearly) always a way to rebuild damaged fiberglass... albeit sometimes at great effort/expense. And, some fiberglass resin and fiber cloth as well as original build-out methods are considerably less likely to experience the detrimental afflictions therefore being easier to maintain and requiring less repair efforts.

So, I say: If you like wood or you like fiberglass boats (or steel or aluminum boats – each also having their needs for good material, correct build-out, and maintenance) just make sure your boat was well built to begin with and then care for it as its particular material and original build-out methods dictate/require. But, most importantly in the life of “Pleasure Boating” - - Enjoy Yourself as much as possible... cause this life we lead has no second play! This Is It – Good Luck!! :dance:

Northern Spy · Dec 17, 2012

Marin said:
Like this?

The wooden stern appeared to hold up well...
:hide:

Art · Dec 17, 2012

Marin - After seeing your picts of thrashed GB on beach... I went into my post just below yours and added the word "(nearly)" in two locations re wood and fiberglass! lol :dance:

Marin · Dec 17, 2012

Spy-- As I'm sure you know but for anyone who doesn't, the "wood" transom on a GB is just decorative teak planks screwed into a recess on the full-thickness fiberglass transom.

Eric--- These photos were originally posted by another Forum member after the tidal surges following the Japanese earthquake/tsunami the other year. The boat was washed out of the Brookings, Oregon harbor and down the coast. At some point it was washed ashore and beat up by the waves.

Art · Dec 17, 2012

Just for S&G - Here's a pict of 40 Tollycraft that a few years ago hit beach at some 12 to 14 knots in PNW (old folks fell asleep while on AP). Some of you in this forum might recognize the location!?!? Article said no one hurt and no hull damage, just beat-up drive train underwater parts. I guess a good wood hull would probably be fairly OK too, seeing as the gravel/sand beach-slide had gradual elevation change! :whistling:

markpierce · Dec 17, 2012

A good reason to have a single, keel-protected propeller/rudder.

Art · Dec 17, 2012

markpierce said:
A good reason to have a single, keel-protected propeller/rudder.

Mark - You got that one right! That is if you plan to skid onto a beach, or not watch your depth finder closely so you keep boat in deep enough waters, or simply don't pilot from fly bridge so you can see dead heads and other debris in order to miss em! I always pilot from bridge... except in the most severe weather conditions... then I might wish I had full skeg and keel for prop protection if debris went under our hull. Boat Ownership = Trade Offs! :whistling:

FF · Dec 17, 2012

Fiberglass can get brittle,

True but of no consequence IF we are discussing well built boats.

A boat hull needs a 400% safety margin to get USCG cert to carry over 6 pax.

This is figured as an open top tea cup, the internal structure or deck does not count .

At this excellent level of construction the boat basically does not flex , so resin becoming a bit more brittle over the decades is meaningless.

Those cracks under step surfaces etc , are examples of too thin too weak construction, an overload flexed the surface too far.

RickB · Dec 17, 2012

FF said:
A boat hull needs a 400% safety margin to get USCG cert to carry over 6 pax.

Where did that little gem come from?

psneeld · Dec 17, 2012

manyboats said:
You're right psneeld. Wood boats don't have a good reputation for puncture resistance. And I'll admit that one of the reasons I bought the Willard is that it has a robust hull. I hit a rock at anchor w Willy and still can't figure out how it could seem like we hit so hard. No damage. Hit a log in Clearance Strait at cruising speed and it went BOOM! I thought for sure we'd been holed. Threw the hatches open looked everywhere but no water came aboard. Hit a full grown Humpback whale (T boned him) at over 6 knots and stopped in about 2'. No damage I THINK. But there is what appears to be a verticle crack on the leading edge right where we hit the whale. Gonna grind a bit and put a FG expert on it to see if all's well.

But I think puncture resistance w planked hulls and plywood hulls ate not to be compared as anywhere equal. Plywood has incredible puncture resistance but it's only as strong as the keels, chine logs and fasteners that hold it in place. If you use epoxy, FG, filler and radised overlays it may be stronger than a 100% FG boat. But of course it's not then a wood boat ... or is it? The only larger boat I built was a plywood boat and I don't think I could have built it out of FG.. I don't think it could have taken the beating at sea that I gave the plywood boat. I've been known to jump the wake of the ferry Wikersham (an older sea going Alaska State ferry) going 21 knots at close to that speed myself. A very airborne and bent leg experience. The plywood boat seemed to think it was fun too.

And I think cold moulded and other composite hulls are stronger than FG by a long shot.

But a planked hull like carvel or batten seam construction would not be so puncture resistant but the ability to take a smashing from waves and seas are probably right up there.

But re what psneeld said I agree w as I've seen FG boats that have been pounded to death on exposed beaches and it's obvious they put up a very commendable fight.

Who's talking puncture resistance? I'm talking mostly popped planks....the USCG is fed up with the requirement to inspect fastenings on commercial planked inspected vessels because they get beat up for making owners tear into their boat too often...but as many that pop a plank and sink...what are ya gonna do?

And as far as taking a beating...a mild chop will pop a plank if the fasteners have all but disintegrated...and there's the rub...you never know their condition without pulling a plank and inspecting. A well made planked boat may last for hundreds of years...but it only takes an unusual set of circumstances for some fastenings to deteriorate and once you pop a plank the chances of saving the boat are pretty low....unless like any sinking boat you get her beached fast.

bfloyd4445 · Dec 17, 2012

psneeld said:
Fiberglass boats have plenty of examples of landing on rocks or reefs and grinding away for hours with little or no damage while wood boats in a few feet of chop let alone hitting a deadhead have popped a plank and sank.

The USCG has all but legislated against planked wooden vessels for inspected vessels... I wonder why...

thanks, wasnt aware of that. I was speaking from my experiance and i have seen glass shatter but never wood. wood also tends to float whereis glass goes down like a rock.
I'm gonna ask my insurance company for some numbers on this issue

psneeld · Dec 17, 2012

bfloyd4445 said:
thanks, wasnt aware of that. I was speaking from my experiance and i have seen glass shatter but never wood. wood also tends to float whereis glass goes down like a rock.
I'm gonna ask my insurance company for some numbers on this issue

Good luck...

By the way fiberglass doesn't "shatter".... :socool:

bfloyd4445 · Dec 17, 2012

psneeld said:
Good luck...
By the way fiberglass doesn't "shatter"....

it can and does splinter depending upon how it was layed up but then so does wood

markpierce · Dec 18, 2012

Art said:
Mark - You got that one right! That is if you plan to skid onto a beach, or not watch your depth finder closely so you keep boat in deep enough waters, or simply don't pilot from fly bridge so you can see dead heads and other debris in order to miss em! I always pilot from bridge... except in the most severe weather conditions... then I might wish I had full skeg and keel for prop protection if debris went under our hull. Boat Ownership = Trade Offs!

I agree, but perhaps your dislike of the view from the pilothouse is because the dinghy is blocking your view.

Good view from my pilothouse:

232323232%7Ffp63569%3Enu%3D3363%3E33%3A%3E57%3B%3EWSNRCG%3D37%3A3%3A34%3B52336nu0mrj

Art · Dec 18, 2012

markpierce said:
I agree, but perhaps your dislike of the view from the pilothouse is because the dinghy is blocking your view.

Good view from my pilothouse:

That rubber-ducky dink is long gone! For years now, we have a classic fiberglass Crestliner tow-behind 50 hp o/b runabout with snap to windshield bimini.

Nothing against your pilothouse view, cause it does look nice in the pict and I’m sure it suits you well!! But... from a pilothouse the actual viewing capability as compared to fly bridge simply has no comparison, in may ways! As is true in boating – there’s always a trade off!

Nomad Willy · Dec 18, 2012

Here's my bow and there's no maze of metal tubing, big anchor or bow pulpit to mess it up either. And the "railing" is small wire like a sailboat. I'm very keen on my good view forward.

This is an edit,
I'm trying not to do thread creep and here I go/went again. Sorry.

bfloyd4445 · Dec 18, 2012

dont care for the flexible railing but love the wrap around pilot house veiw. I've looked at many boats but the only one that had that, right, feel about it was a willard like yours with a flybridge named Loki. I think that feeling came because of her over all design and seaworthy look. However, the v berth was small without head room. I did love the lower helm station with the nice chart table directly behind the helm station.

superior features of a wood vessel

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Attachments

Master and Commander

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Attachments

Master and Commander

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Master and Commander

Guru

Attachments

Guru

Attachments

Guru

Similar threads