superior features of a wood vessel

David says;

"Yes, that is happening a bit here in Deer Isle/Stonington, home of the largest poundage of NE lobster landings. Easier on the feet on a full day in a chop is one thing that I have heard. A Peter Kass boat is popular."
__________________
David Hawkins
Deer Isle, Maine

It is beautiful but look at the 1/2 hull and the pics. They show a boat w very little displacement. A very light boat and I'm quite sure this boat couldn't be build without employing exotic and very expensive materials like Kevlar or carbon fibre if it were not made of wood. Standard FG construction is just too heavy or weak.

Re Lobster Boats I see they are all very wide and overpowered now. In the 50s were they all or mostly quite narrow?

dhmeissner said:

Ok I confess.

My RW35 has a fiberglass hull. I'm glad it does, the rest of the boat is wood and I'm happy about that. When I set out in pursuit of a RW35 I found one near Vancouver, and had it surveyed. It has a wooden hull that had been neglected. Cost to bring her back exceeded the asking price so I bailed. The near grand I spent saved me 30.

My San Juan 23 sailboat is also fiberglass. Someday I will have a wooden sailboat just because I want one. I'm a member...The Center for Wooden Boats
Great organization. I was part of the Puffin team one year, till I had to move overseas, I will be back this summer though and volunteer again.
Steam Launch: Puffin | The Center for Wooden Boats

Click to expand...

We use to moore at the South end of Lake Union. Visitied/walked though the center many times. Being the Eagle is not faired very well, they thought the Eagle was wood, and was invited several time for events. Our sales person, Rudy Lewis, passed away, was an active member. I miss Lake Union and being in the center/heart of down town Seattle.

In the 50s were they all or mostly quite narrow?

IN the 50's the power was probably a 6 cylinder Chevvy ,or Chrusler,, keel cooled , dry stack , from a buddy in the junk yard.

Folks with friends would have a spare or two and could swop an engine out overnight.

Perhaps 60 -85 hp so slender was the only way to go fast , and slender does far better in heavy weather . .

Age !

Today you guys are talking about the value and cost to maintain wood boats. But are refering in all reality to 40 / 50 / 60 plus year old vessels.

Hull material has little to do with this end result be that wood or metal, plastic or rock.

Today there are new and improved techniques for building and repairing in wood. Same can be said for metal , plastic and rock.

Any one that thinks an average FRP from the late 70s and or early 80s is not about to enter into this end is crazy. To suggest a metal boat will be less maintenance after 40 or 50 years in service is a blanket statement that in most cases will be proved untrue.

Sure there are vessels built using any of these materials that can and will outlast some of us. But to suggest all wood boats are cash and time consumers is not a true picture of reality.

I am not suggetsing old wood boats are "good ta go" but not all TT tubs from the 80s are good ta go either. Look at a Bayliner from the mid 80s where the structure of the bridge is supported by the pilot house windows. You think rebeading them windows to repair the strength needed to support that structure is cheap and easy , think again. Even Bayliner made that change with later designs.

Any one that thinks testing of aluminium plates and then having to replace said plates is cheap and easy they have rocks in ther heads.

I hear more and more issues with FRP vessels today than wood. Yup less wood boats today more older FRP , vessels. The same vessels that made boating afforable are the new old wood boat.

Be that rotten stringers, blisters, bad deck core, leaking window, delamination of hull materials. This list goeas on and on. Ya a change from fastening, caulking, plank replacement, cabin corner rot etc etc.

Hull material is a small part of the overall picture. From power to tanks, electrical to sewage, canvas to navigational equipment that list is huge and expensive.



Pick your poison.

Most older boats will be a project of some kind. Is what it is.

With my old wood boats I always purchased and looked for value in the hull, machinery and tanks. The rest the big buck items is where a ton of time and cash ends up. Yet I recieved the wood boat discount. But I am seeing the old FRP discount begin. Sure there are some perfect boats out there, but way above my pay grade. So I pick my poison and enjoy the maintenance the conversion, the cruising, and the live abilty of my choice. But the old fishboat will probably outlive me and a lot of bayliners even if she has a few years on em.

My 2 cents.

Ya the grumpyoldfishboatguy with the wood boat.

OFB said:

Age !

Today you guys are talking about the value and cost to maintain wood boats. But are refering in all reality to 40 / 50 / 60 plus year old vessels.

Hull material has little to do with this end result be that wood or metal, plastic or rock.

Today there are new and improved techniques for building and repairing in wood. Same can be said for metal , plastic and rock.

Any one that thinks an average FRP from the late 70s and or early 80s is not about to enter into this end is crazy. To suggest a metal boat will be less maintenance after 40 or 50 years in service is a blanket statement that in most cases will be proved untrue.

Sure there are vessels built using any of these materials that can and will outlast some of us. But to suggest all wood boats are cash and time consumers is not a true picture of reality.

I am not suggetsing old wood boats are "good ta go" but not all TT tubs from the 80s are good ta go either. Look at a Bayliner from the mid 80s where the structure of the bridge is supported by the pilot house windows. You think rebeading them windows to repair the strength needed to support that structure is cheap and easy , think again. Even Bayliner made that change with later designs.

Any one that thinks testing of aluminium plates and then having to replace said plates is cheap and easy they have rocks in ther heads.

I hear more and more issues with FRP vessels today than wood. Yup less wood boats today more older FRP , vessels. The same vessels that made boating afforable are the new old wood boat.

Be that rotten stringers, blisters, bad deck core, leaking window, delamination of hull materials. This list goeas on and on. Ya a change from fastening, caulking, plank replacement, cabin corner rot etc etc.

Hull material is a small part of the overall picture. From power to tanks, electrical to sewage, canvas to navigational equipment that list is huge and expensive.

Pick your poison.

Most older boats will be a project of some kind. Is what it is.

With my old wood boats I always purchased and looked for value in the hull, machinery and tanks. The rest the big buck items is where a ton of time and cash ends up. Yet I recieved the wood boat discount. But I am seeing the old FRP discount begin. Sure there are some perfect boats out there, but way above my pay grade. So I pick my poison and enjoy the maintenance the conversion, the cruising, and the live abilty of my choice. But the old fishboat will probably outlive me and a lot of bayliners even if she has a few years on em.

My 2 cents.

Ya the grumpyoldfishboatguy with the wood boat.

Click to expand...

WOW ... I love what you have said brother !!!!!!

Cheers
Hendo
(a wooden boat owner/builder)

iPad Forum Runner

FF,

In the 50s the boat engines of pleasure boats (cruisers) were actually marine engines. Not Chevys. They had their flywheels on the front of the engines and had updraft carburetors. They were flatheads to minimize the overall height of the engines and that played heavily in the fwd location of the flywheel too. CG was important in those days. The fwd flywheel was, however mostly to get the engine as low as possible and the drive shaft short. Don't ever recall seeing a keel cooled cruiser. They all had rumbling wet exhausts through the transom. There were lots of Chryslers but I doubt if they were from automotive origin. As I recall the marine engine blocks were made of special metal more suited for marine use than car engines but I could be wrong about that. I don't think they were (mostly) industrial or of automotive engines but I'm only about 95% sure of that. If they were actually industrial or automotive they did an extremely complete marineazation of the original stock. People used car engines in boats only as a desperate act of economic necessity. Some made manifolds for such engines like "Barr" and "Osco".

manyboats said:

FF,

In the 50s the boat engines of pleasure boats (cruisers) were actually marine engines. Not Chevys. They had their flywheels on the front of the engines and had updraft carburetors. They were flatheads to minimize the overall height of the engines and that played heavily in the fwd location of the flywheel too. CG was important in those days. The fwd flywheel was, however mostly to get the engine as low as possible and the drive shaft short. Don't ever recall seeing a keel cooled cruiser. They all had rumbling wet exhausts through the transom. There were lots of Chryslers but I doubt if they were from automotive origin. As I recall the marine engine blocks were made of special metal more suited for marine use than car engines but I could be wrong about that. I don't think they were (mostly) industrial or of automotive engines but I'm only about 95% sure of that. If they were actually industrial or automotive they did an extremely complete marineazation of the original stock. People used car engines in boats only as a desperate act of economic necessity. Some made manifolds for such engines like "Barr" and "Osco".

Click to expand...

I dont know about all engines but mine is a Perkins diesel 6.354. The only difference between a marinized engine and a truck engine is the internals. The marine version use Stainless Steel and have a different set up for the heat exchanger. Mine is out of a truck and is just grand.

LOL it Has nothing to do with blocks being made out of special material. Have a look at a lot of the ski boats. Chevy, ford, Holden etc.

iPad Forum Runner

Scary said:

Wooden boats were wood because that was the material available and there was an industry of skilled workers who could hand build them.

Click to expand...

Excellent and concise summary. Thanks.

manyboats said:

FF,

In the 50s the boat engines of pleasure boats (cruisers) were actually marine engines. Not Chevys. They had their flywheels on the front of the engines and had updraft carburetors. They were flatheads to minimize the overall height of the engines and that played heavily in the fwd location of the flywheel too. CG was important in those days. The fwd flywheel was, however mostly to get the engine as low as possible and the drive shaft short. Don't ever recall seeing a keel cooled cruiser. They all had rumbling wet exhausts through the transom. There were lots of Chryslers but I doubt if they were from automotive origin. As I recall the marine engine blocks were made of special metal more suited for marine use than car engines but I could be wrong about that. I don't think they were (mostly) industrial or of automotive engines but I'm only about 95% sure of that. If they were actually industrial or automotive they did an extremely complete marineazation of the original stock. People used car engines in boats only as a desperate act of economic necessity. Some made manifolds for such engines like "Barr" and "Osco".

Click to expand...

Man that takes me back.

Estope < spl > engines gumpa gumpa gumps slosh gumpa gumpa slosh with wet exhaust out the side.

Power plants you had to shut down and start in reverse to get backward motion. I was a kid I aint that old

I still remember renting a 30 foot cabin cruiser powerd by a Briggs Stratton engine with no reverse. Rope start you had to wind on.

Fun times .

Art said:

to avoid choosing the poorly built boats and only purchase the better built boats.

Click to expand...

Or do a Hendo on it and rip that girl apart and rebuild it lol

iPad Forum Runner

Hendo78 said:

Or do a Hendo on it and rip that girl apart and rebuild it lol

iPad Forum Runner

Click to expand...

Yeah - BUT - You are simply a Boat Restoration Monstor!! And, I say that in a GOOD Way!!

Art said:

Yeah - BUT - You are simply a Boat Restoration Monstor!! And, I say that in a GOOD Way!!

Click to expand...

Hahaha. Yeah more like a Cookie Monster nom nom nom nom nom LOL

iPad Forum Runner

For those of you who think a wood hull will ride better than an FRP hull, here's a video I shot this past summer. We're on the Columbia heading downstream, running at GPS speed of 22kts in about a 4'-5' chop against a pretty strong headwind.

I'm hand holding the camera and that's why it's shaky. The boat was doing very well.

Columbia River, Heading Downstream toward The Dalles Dam June, 2012 - YouTube

On the trip back upstream we ran against similar waves but had the wind on our stern. The boat did equally well. I had a video of that trip but it was lost when my laptop died a couple of months ago.

Starfire

William Garden design

Philbrooks Build 70's

Wood ( composite ) but Bill Garden prefered wood.

62 feet powered by 2 x 12 71 NA detroits on "jack shafts" or what I call jack shafts. Engines mounted aft with drive shafts to V drives forward. Smooth quiet dry ride. Yet fast and effective.

My dream boat is sitting here for sale. But way past my pay grade one way or another.

Watching this vessel walk by me on my old fishboat doing in the 20 knot cruising range yet producing little wake is awsome. She is just unreal to watch running through the water.

Just sharing some art.

OFB said:

Starfire

William Garden design

Philbrooks Build 70's

Wood ( composite ) but Bill Garden prefered wood.

62 feet powered by 2 x 12 71 NA detroits on "jack shafts" or what I call jack shafts. Engines mounted aft with drive shafts to V drives forward. Smooth quiet dry ride. Yet fast and effective.

My dream boat is sitting here for sale. But way past my pay grade one way or another.

Watching this vessel walk by me on my old fishboat doing in the 20 knot cruising range yet producing little wake is awsome. She is just unreal to watch running through the water.

Just sharing some art.

Click to expand...

Damn, OFB... that’s a real nice looking boat! Must be roomy as all get out; having trunk cabin and raised deck design mixed together on her forward section. You been aboard?? That actually a raised deck or just elevated gunnels for better sheer at upper bow area? TY for sharing picts.

"Jack Shafts", geezz I haven't heard that one since my days in New England waters... they weren't thought favorably by fisher boats' marine mechanics. I owned one V-drive, a Uniflite, was OK but not my preferred set up. I consider straight shaft the best and most problem free. Prow on the bow of that baby really makes it look like she'd ride up on the waves well. Garden designs tend to have plenty of bow flair. Wonder what nmpg she gets at 20 knots with her 12-71 NA's?? My guess is about one nmpg per gal, per engine, maybe a smidge worse. If so that means 40 + gal per hr X $5 = $200 per hr fuel cost. If I'm incorrect on fuel usage and that's cut in half it still = $100 per hr. Go the other way as a 50% error from my guess of one nmpg and $400 per hr is in sight - - > OUCH. Soooo, depending on nmpg efficiency... if traveling 200 miles, cost would be approx from $1000, to $2000, to $4000 for the trip of 10 hour duration. Not too bad if you have very deep pockets! Real nice looking boat though!! PS: I think my quick calks are correct... let me know if not.

Greetings,
Had a 34' cruiser (wood) and the BEST, by far, feature of a wooden boat is that someone else owns it. You all raise VERY valid points about wooden boats (ride, warmth etc.) but been there, done that.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Had a 34' cruiser (wood) and the BEST, by far, feature of a wooden boat is that someone else owns it. You all raise VERY valid points about wooden boats (ride, warmth etc.) but been there, done that.

Click to expand...

RT - What's cha gots now for a boat? Can't recall seeing picts of you or your craft. Care to share?? Ciao, Art

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Had a 34' cruiser (wood) and the BEST, by far, feature of a wooden boat is that someone else owns it. You all raise VERY valid points about wooden boats (ride, warmth etc.) but been there, done that.

Click to expand...

Me too. Miss her, but don't miss her.

dwhatty said:

Me too. Miss her, but don't miss her.

Click to expand...

What's she doing there, about 11.5 knots? Sure slides smooth through the water. Nice hull design for a quiet running cruiser! What power plant(s) she have... one screw I imagine!

Hendo says;

"LOL it Has nothing to do with blocks being made out of special material. Have a look at a lot of the ski boats. Chevy, ford, Holden etc."

What I was talking about was long before your'e Perkins and probably your time in this world.

And I wasn't talking about silly ski boats.

Hercules, Chris Craft, Red Wing, Lathrop, Universal, Chrysler, Nordberg, Palmer, Kermath and that's right off the top of my head. There were many more. The Lathrop is the only one on my list than wasn't a flathead engine. Many of these engines had a cast iron crankcase and the transmission was built into the aft end of the engine ... not bolted on. So the transmission and engine shared the same space/case. Don't see how they could be from a truck or auto engine. I don't think you've ever seen any of these and you may be right that they may not be cast from a special material but I think they were dedicated marine engines.

LOL yourself and I certainly don't need to be looking at ski boats to learn about marine engines. Ther'e all just car engines aren't they?

Eric---- A good friend has a (wood) 26' Richardson cabin cruiser that he and his brother keep in covered moorage on Lake Union. It has been in his family for 50 years now (his dad bought it when my friend was a kid). It is powered by a pair of raw-water cooled, gasoline Graymarine engines. Do you know if these engines were purpose-built as marine engines?

Marin I'm not absolutely sure but many of them had the clutch and gears inside the aft end of the crankcase so it's hard to imagine them coming from cars. They could, however buy the crankshaft, rods and pistons from a car manufacturer but the two engines were destined for very different duty cycles and loads. The ones that had a bolt on clutch and gear unit were (in my opinion) more likely to have come from cars or industrial general purpose engines like the Continental that was found in the Kaiser and that car that was made for many years only as a cab .. the Checker.

I was only about 10 when these engines were the power of the day. They were very smooth and did not require rubber engine mounts. They were bolted directly to the heavy wood engine beds.

Marin a twin was unusual in a 26' boat even then. Graymarine was one of the more popular engines then and Grey offered the 6-71 (and perhaps other DDs) so there's one engine that for sure was from industry. But the bulk of the pleasure boat engines were 25 to 145hp. Most were 6cyl. Some 4s and a few straight 8s (usually Chrysler). Almost all were flathead engines that had the flywheel (and starter motors) on the front of the engine. It would seem a dedicated crankshaft would be necessary for that.

Eric--- I'm pretty sure the boat is 26.' If it isn't, then it's 28.' The engines are four cylinder Graymarines.

manyboats said:

Hendo says;

"LOL it Has nothing to do with blocks being made out of special material. Have a look at a lot of the ski boats. Chevy, ford, Holden etc."

What I was talking about was long before your'e Perkins and probably your time in this world.

And I wasn't talking about silly ski boats.

Hercules, Chris Craft, Red Wing, Lathrop, Universal, Chrysler, Nordberg, Palmer, Kermath and that's right off the top of my head. There were many more. The Lathrop is the only one on my list than wasn't a flathead engine. Many of these engines had a cast iron crankcase and the transmission was built into the aft end of the engine ... not bolted on. So the transmission and engine shared the same space/case. Don't see how they could be from a truck or auto engine. I don't think you've ever seen any of these and you may be right that they may not be cast from a special material but I think they were dedicated marine engines.

LOL yourself and I certainly don't need to be looking at ski boats to learn about marine engines. Ther'e all just car engines aren't they?

Click to expand...

*yawn* i do LOL at myself. you must be able to laugh at yourself before others! besides if you had a head like mine you'd wanna have a sense of humour cause theres nothing else going for it!

silly ski boats!. Not heard of that model. Who makes it? They sound like fun.

iPad Forum Runner

They were made by Silly Marine, Llc.. They're a niche blue water passage-maker manufacturer in Kansas. Sort of a "whatever Nordhavn can do we can do better because we're 'muricans, goddamnit" outfit.

I'm actually surprised Eric has heard of them because Silly Marine's niche in the market is that while they have been building blue-water passage-makers for some time now, they have yet to figure out how to get any of them to water.

Marin said:

They were made by Silly Marine, Llc.. They're a niche blue water passage-maker manufacturer in Kansas. Sort of a "whatever Nordhavn can do we can do better because we're 'muricans, goddamnit" outfit.

I'm actually surprised Eric has heard of them because Silly Marine's niche in the market is that while they have been building blue-water passage-makers for some time now, they have yet to figure out how to get any of them to water.

Click to expand...

Bwahahahahahaha

And here is was thinking eric was lacking for better words. Thanks very much for clearing that up.

ROFL

iPad Forum Runner

Marin said:

Do you know if these engines were purpose-built as marine engines?

Click to expand...

Both Gray Marine and Chryslers were conceived and created as marine engines.

Chrysler had a marine division and even built boats for a while.

Back when (1950’s to early 60's)... my family had 1948 23' Chris Craft Express trunk cabin w/ straight six 115 hp Chrysler Crown and a 1950 something 32' Johnson Bros. lap-strake, trunk cabin cruiser with Gray Marine. Lap-strake sucks for sleeping in a bay. Slightest ripple provides constant slapping/gurgle sounds on the hull's strakes. If boat's small bay wake hit us the sound was too much to sleep through.
Just sayen!

Rick B said:

"Both Gray Marine and Chryslers were conceived and created as marine engines.Chrysler had a marine division and even built boats for a while"

Chrysler is an intersting marine story, starting in the 1920s. As part of the government bailout in the 70s they had to get out of non-core assets which included their outboard, inboard, power boats and sail boats. They built over 4000 boats with Halsey Hereshoff designing some of their sailing vessels.

Their outboard group became Force Marine. I can't recall if their Crusader name was/is part of the great Crusader gas engines today.

My father had a flat head 6 Chrysler Crusader in a power boat. I had a pair of 383 gassers. Chrysler made V8s in the 318, 360, 383 and 440 sizes. These marinized engines are still around with several shops still doing total rebuilds.