superior features of a wood vessel

"I believe it's the people who designed and built the wood boats that made them more aesthetic."

Wooden boats are built usually one at a time , so the owners input is required, and usually a NA is involved.Some have a great eye. And many yards are highly skilled

GRP boats are usually made from a mold and to amortize the mold cost about 100 hopefully will be made.

Selling a mass market cookie is very different from pleasing a knowledgible owner.

When the sales pitch is mere volume at low cost , quality ,performance , repairability and most of the requirements to operate the vessel over decades is missing.AS are esthetics.

You get what you pay for,

I agree that the Dashews do it right. As far as a clean sheet of paper for the design, I'm not so sure. Look at Tad Roberts Passagemaker light series. Thse long , slim designs pre date "Windhorse" by several years. We are lucky to have Tad on the forum lately.
Elco and others were doing the extreme length to beam equation as well.
In the mid 90's I built a 30' LOA by 6' beam "Tennessee" design by Phil Bolger. It was designed for a 10 HP Yamaha high thrust .

Sailor of Fortune said:

Wood boats won't burn as quick as a Fiberglass boat.
Easier motion in a seaway.

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How does the building material contribute to "motion in a seaway?

HAHA Marin I'm not trying to trip you up, win an argument, get you to admit something you wouldn't otherwise admit, or as you say "take a stand". Interesting concept though. Perhaps I'll set you up some day. HAHA Probably already have though but sure don't remember.

There are some FG boats that are stunningly beautiful and there are quite a few that are good looking like the Sea Dories, Flemming's and Bayliner PH cruisers. On the other hand there are wood boats that were ugly ... well unattractive. Some were wood boats that had FG cabin tops that looked like a hat put "on top" of something ... because good looking cabin tops were difficult to make so the FG saved time and money. But of course that was FG.

On a negative note there were wood boats not very attractive like the boats of the twenties that had too many flat, vertical and slab sided cabin surfaces to be even remotely beautiful. And in the late 50s the vulgar styling of the automobile spilled over into boat design.

And as Fred says the designers were in a different time and designing things (boats) w a different sense of vogueness. What is popular is always changing. People that the products were designed for (boats) had different tastes. In the wood boat days people had more Cadillac type tastes than plain jane tastes. Boats were designed to have more class as more people on the receiving end had more class. People in the wood boat days sought elegance whereas people in the Sea Ray Bayliner days were looking for something that was more modern, cool and "in". So the needs of peoples "things" changed about how they looked and how other people would see and judge them re how they looked. So the desires of people and their needs designed boats perhaps even more than the architects that drew them up, made adjustments for the workability of the materials at hand, ran the numbers and added flourishes some of which would become a bit popular like swept back radar arches. Somewhat was vogue in the 50s is no longer and what is vogue now will soon pass.

Other things make me dream of going back too like rotten cabins, decks and hull stringers and of course blisters not to mention attractiveness at all.

But living in a plastic age where vogueness is more important than the elements of art and class also makes me want to go back to the good old days that on these terms were really the good old days. So on occasion I dream of wood boats.

Wood boats do not have as "corky" a motion as a Fiberglass boat. Ask many of the Maine Lobstermen who spend their entire adult life on their feet at the rail of a boat. Many have either switched back to Wood after years in FG. I'm sure other fisheries have the same issues.

Another advantage to a wood boat is the low commission paid to a broker to sell the boat. The commission rate is the same for fiberglass but to get a wooden boat sold the price normally has to be very low.
Outside of my office is a 2005 54' Vicem enclosed flybridge convertible built like a Jarrett Bay, cold molded composite. Asking price on this estate sale boat is only $399,000.
Please do not consider this a broker ad for this boat, with twin 800 HP MAN diesels I know this forum well enough that potential buyers will not be reading this! The picture is just for discusion of style since that has been brought up a lot in this discussion.

If the windows are rotting after being ignored for a year there is a great deal wrong. Bad materials, bad design, and bad construction. The windows in the boat below are 65 years old, they are original, they are not rotten and do not leak. They are made of mahogany and have received a few coats of varnish in 65 years, otherwise they have been ignored.

Proper design, construction, and maintenance of any material is vital to it's longevity. Good boats can be built of many materials, also bad ones. The main reason for major problems in any material is deferred maintenance or simple ignorance of what is required. All boats require maintenance to continue to look pristine.....

The main reason for having a boat of any particular material is that, "that's what you want".

Good windows TAD I wish my windows were as good on my FG Willard.

Yes, boats are toys/yachts pleasure boats ect and the bottom line is how much like them. But in favor of some of the FG attitude is that as conceived part of the pleasure we get from them is tainted by the perception of all work and no play. I'll have to admit that the junction of cabin and deck on my plastic Willard boat has been bullet proof these last 7 years in Alaska.

Beautiful boat in the pic and it looks like it's almost as stiff as my Willard.

YBG,
In this case you present I think the hull is beautiful but the entire cabin does the beautiful Hull no favors.

SofF,
So what do you attribute the "corky" feel to?

An awesome Creep deserving of its own thread

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/design-objective-subjective-8096.html

CPseudonym said:

An awesome Creep deserving of its own thread

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/design-objective-subjective-8096.html

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I say boat design is proactive! Now, that should settle it!

ARoss said:

How does the building material contribute to "motion in a seaway?

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All I can tell you is from discussion with guys who captain very high dollar, very high performance sport fishing boats, which comprises most of the population on my very long dock, plus our marina is a major base for one of the biggest marlin tournaments in the country, when a lot more of these guys come in seeking a prize of as much as a million bucks and a lot of testosterone driven bragging rights. As an aside, I kind of got a kick out of it this year when a lowly Ocean production boat took first prize, missing getting the whole million by a half a pound (bonus for bringing in first fish over 500 lbs) but still raking in something like $650k.

For all I know some of it might be superstition, some of it may have to do with a particular hull form they use vs, say, Hatteras or Viking. Hatteras has had a lot of success with their new "GT" line that seems intent on emulating the custom boats in an FRP hull. But it still seems that they all feel the wood boats provide a ride unique to themselves.

There's just something about wood boats... Although I have "wood boat disease" and will probably own one sometime in my life, I don't think wood boats are for everyone. You really have to WANT one, and not because it has better qualities than fiberglass or metal or cement. You should get one if it makes your heart sing. If you want one, and don't mind the "labor of love" that is part and parcel of being a wood boat owner, then who cares about the rest? Or for that matter, who cares what a fiberglass aficionado thinks?

While we are quite happy with our fiberglass Cheoy Lee 46 LRC, I had my heart set on a custom Wm. Garden designed, Willard-built 51' wood trawler named Silver Lady. The owner sold it out from under us. As I lay in my nice, comfortable queen berth in the aft cabin, I often think about that wooden boat. Mostly during those nights of 25 mph plus winds that come out of the S/SSW across the bay and create nothing more than 2-foot waves, but crash against the hull making quite the racket (we're on an exposed outside slip). Throw in some 45 mph gusts, and it sounds like someone is using a baseball bat against the boat. Yes, it's at those times that the statement "a wood boat is quieter" keeps running through my mind...

Art,

Isn't that what Marin's anchor was supposed to be?

Yes Moonfish FG boats will thump a bit at rest and be bothersome but plywood boats will do that too. And the shape of a boat like chines at the WL and sterns w a bit of bottom out of the water. But re the wood boat I'd probably have one (custom designed) if I had about 5 times the income I do have. A new wood boat custom designed for me .... that would be someth'in.

Now here is a wood boat that fits into the discussion here or maybe the one that was discussing narrow/long boats vs; squat short/wide boats.
Sort of takes the breath away to view this lady and her history.

A.M.(Al) Johnson-Ketchikan
27' Marben Pocket Trawler

"I've learned that it takes years to build up trust, and it only takes a suspicion,not proof, to destroy it."

Whoops!!

The U.S.S. Sequoia Presidential Yacht

The Sequoia is okay, but if we're talking about large yachts, I much prefer this boat. I took these two summers ago in Maple Bay, BC.

Wood boats don't suffer from condensation like a FG boat does. The natural insulating properties of wood make it warmer in winter, and quieter.

Pau Hana said:

Wood doesn't need to breathe.

The problem with glass over wood is that it's almost never done on a 100% dry hull.

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Yeah I agree. I am building a timer frame and timber hull boat. I am using Bote-Cote 100% epoxy to encapsulate the timber to keep out water and so the timber can't breathe and to hopefully stop water ingress. You don't want timber breathing.

iPad Forum Runner

"Wood boats won't burn as quick as a Fiberglass boat."

Depends,

The USCG rates a wooden boat with a burn rate of 100

Common GRP has a burn rate of 500 ,However

Any boat built to commercially carry more than 6 pax will be built out of FR (fire retardant) resin.

This must have a burn rate of 100 or under.

At the sacrifice of 2% in strength the burn rate can be down to about 5.

The FR only costs a few cents a pound more for the hull builder , but lack of demand by first owners keeps the pennies in the builders pocket.

"You get what you pay for".

Guys

I posted the comments below in the wrong thread. here it goes:

"Hi Folks:
I cannot talk about your experience with wooden boats. Yet, in an effort to generalize the boating material issue, I can say the following:
The bad fame of the wood as a boatbuilding material, started to be “vox populi” during the birth of the fiberglass technology.
The structure of the first boats built in FG was made of encapsulated wood. Bad wood which, as it was meant would be encapsulated with polyester resin or any other product that could not stop the water from reaching the wood. Therefore, this one would rote easily.
In addition to that, the Dupont and other peers, spent millions of dollars in marketing, to convince the people about the applications of the fiberglass products. Not only them but the giants of petroleum were very interested in ramping up this technology. At same time, the environmentalists started to call attention for the excess trees being cut around the globe to produce wood, etc., etc.
In the actual days, all boats made of wood in Brazil, for example, are made from farmed wood and no more jungle stolen and outlaw cut. Mine for example!
Yes, to build a boat in FG, we do not need many skills as we do with wood, only if you have the plug, and the form and etc. To build these you need a lot of skills.
So who’s better and who’s worse? I don’t know, it looks like we need the first fiberglass boat to last 100 years before we make a valid statement. Other than that, it depends on where you are."
Portuguese

Another important aspect of wood boats is that most anyone can build a simple wood boat ... like a plywood boat.
And building wood boats is more fun than maintaining them.
So if you want a 32' trawler and are poor your best chances of getting one is to buy an old boat or build your own. Most of us buy old boats and suffer the blues of owning an old abused boat. You get a good design but usually lots of maintenance grief.
A good example of a trawler capable wood boat is the St Pierre Dory. VERY seaworthy. Very economical and can be built out of plywood.



http://http://spirainternational.com/hp_keyl.php

Came across these shots this morning. They are of the Chris Craft on our dock that I mentioned in an earlier post. The boat has been kept outside all the time we've known it, which has been about 12 years. But while the owner lived aboard it was always in excellent shape. Not boat-show condition but very well taken care of.

But now that he's moved ashore the boat is slowly getting away from him even though we see him working on it now and again. I don't remember which Chris Craft model this is but it would make someone a great boat for using or living on.

It's been for sale for the last couple of years but while it had one very interested buyer that seems to have fallen through for lack of funds. But I hope someone buys it soon or it will continue to deteriorate. These photos were taken a couple of years ago when it first came on the market. It does not look this nice today.

Marin said:

Came across these shots this morning. They are of the Chris Craft on our dock that I mentioned in an earlier post. The boat has been kept outside all the time we've known it, which has been about 12 years. But while the owner lived aboard it was always in excellent shape. Not boat-show condition but very well taken care of.

But now that he's moved ashore the boat is slowly getting away from him even though we see him working on it now and again. I don't remember which Chris Craft model this is but it would make someone a great boat for using or living on.

It's been for sale for the last couple of years but while it had one very interested buyer that seems to have fallen through for lack of funds. But I hope someone buys it soon or it will continue to deteriorate. These photos were taken a couple of years ago when it first came on the market. It does not look this nice today.

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Marin

Not too unlike the by-gone era of architecturally artistic and beautifully built buildings with sculptured pillars and cornices as well as ornate eves, elaborate window trim and hand hewed structural timbers... so has the boating world build-out methods/techniques, materials, and visual as well as structural outcome also traversed.

There is simply no longer enough time to build many large scale structural products as pretty as before; nor to care for them thereafter, as yesteryear allowed. That’s not all bad, mind you... but as the speed of things occurring coincides with continual population growth and ever increasing nature-depleting/altering repercussions due to anthropogenic causes/activities being on their continual spike upward there are limits that cannot be avoided and penalties of expanding the bubble too far, too quick that must be paid.

Can civilization grab hold of itself, we’ve become virtually a runaway freight train whose every portion is continually gaining mass and speed simultaneously, before a collision ensues with the very nature, i.e. the fabric of this planet upon which we live?? I’ll leave the answer to that question up to each individual. My answer is a very cautious –“doubtful maybe” – but – no matter what, due to the bubble expansion civilization already attained, there will be unpredictable and global upheavals before things might get to settle back down again.

The biggest bubble ever is the human population bubble that has aggressively and pointedly taken over life in general on planet Earth. As we know... all bubbles eventually go POP if their growth cannot be reigned in and carefully controlled with vents that let off the pressures that build.

That pretty Chris looks like approx a 1951 to 1956 - 43’ to 48’ Chris Craft Corsair. In my early years I traveled aboard for pleasure and worked on at boatyards many CC bigger and smaller, newer and older. Real fine craft in its day and great to own now if you have time and/or $$$ to keep her up.

Sailor of Fortune said:

Wood boats do not have as "corky" a motion as a Fiberglass boat. Ask many of the Maine Lobstermen who spend their entire adult life on their feet at the rail of a boat. Many have either switched back to Wood after years in FG. I'm sure other fisheries have the same issues.

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Yes, that is happening a bit here in Deer Isle/Stonington, home of the largest poundage of NE lobster landings. Easier on the feet on a full day in a chop is one thing that I have heard. A Peter Kass boat is popular.

dwhatty said:

Yes, that is happening a bit here in Deer Isle/Stonington, home of the largest poundage of NE lobster landings. Easier on the feet on a full day in a chop is one thing that I have heard. A Peter Kass boat is popular.

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Peter Kass' Johns Bay Boat Company builds nice looking craft. Thanks for sharing. Art

I believe Tad Roberts does design work on some Peter Kass yachts. To see a good article on these boats, Woodenboat mag Aug Aug 2012. Beautiful large yacht built for an Australian man and shipped to Australia.

Wood Vrs fiberglass

Wooden boats were wood because that was the material available and there was an industry of skilled workers who could hand build them. People who own them now are people who enjoy owning a hand made work of art. That's where it ends. Fiberglass made boating affordable and has allowed us to own and maintain much larger boats than for most of us, time and incomes would allow. Besides dry rot and deteriorating fasteners, the wood in boats loses strength and becomes brittle over time. I work on wood boats professionally and believe me a 45 year old woody no matter how well maintained will be much weaker than a 45 year old fiberglass boat of equal quality. As to ride quality, that has more to do with design than material. The best environment for a woody is under cover in a boat house in salt water where the hull remains pickled and the topsides dry and out of the sun. Wooden boats are beautiful works of art, practical they are not. Many wood boats end up abandoned in boat yards as the owners can't afford the cost or the repair to value ratio doesn't make sense. Many yards won't haul them without a deposit equal to disposal costs because they get stuck with abandoned wood boats once hauled and the owner is faced with repairs exceeding boat value. Wood boats are for owners willing to pay for the exclusiveness of owning a work of art, fiberglass boats will never " in my opinion" reach that classic exclusiveness of a beautiful wooden boat. That said I live on and own a fiberglass boat because it requires so much less maintenance, is dry and remains predictably seaworthy. I have never heard of a fiberglass yacht coming apart and breaking up at sea.

I have never heard of a fiberglass yacht coming apart and breaking up at sea.

Some radical sail racers have had their keels fall off .

A GRP motorboat can take more than the occupants ,
the military is busy attempting to obtain boats the crew can survive the high G loading , their boats dish out.

Near where I live, at the head of one of the creeks, is a marina known as, "the place where wood boats go to die." It's been cleaned up a bit in recent years, there aren't nearly as many boats rotting on the opposite shore as there used to be. Maybe there aren't as many left? Next time I'm on that creek I'll have to get a few pictures.

Scary said:

Wooden boats were wood because that was the material available and there was an industry of skilled workers who could hand build them. People who own them now are people who enjoy owning a hand made work of art. That's where it ends. Fiberglass made boating affordable and has allowed us to own and maintain much larger boats than for most of us, time and incomes would allow. Besides dry rot and deteriorating fasteners, the wood in boats loses strength and becomes brittle over time. I work on wood boats professionally and believe me a 45 year old woody no matter how well maintained will be much weaker than a 45 year old fiberglass boat of equal quality. As to ride quality, that has more to do with design than material. The best environment for a woody is under cover in a boat house in salt water where the hull remains pickled and the topsides dry and out of the sun. Wooden boats are beautiful works of art, practical they are not. Many wood boats end up abandoned in boat yards as the owners can't afford the cost or the repair to value ratio doesn't make sense. Many yards won't haul them without a deposit equal to disposal costs because they get stuck with abandoned wood boats once hauled and the owner is faced with repairs exceeding boat value. Wood boats are for owners willing to pay for the exclusiveness of owning a work of art, fiberglass boats will never " in my opinion" reach that classic exclusiveness of a beautiful wooden boat. That said I live on and own a fiberglass boat because it requires so much less maintenance, is dry and remains predictably seaworthy. I have never heard of a fiberglass yacht coming apart and breaking up at sea.

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Thank you, Steve

You have empirically and clearly stated what I've been trying to understandably say here and on other threads regarding comparison between fiberglass and wood boats. Having spent years when young working in boat yards with shipwrights performing restoration and repairs on wood as well as fiberglass boats, and having visited you while working on the Chris Craft, it is clear to me of your impeccable boat restoration/repair credentials in order to cohesively state your “wood – vs – fiberglass“ position and place it in this thread. Your boat-repair experience is way beyond anyone else I currently know in the boating world or on this forum. In my attempt to explain wood boat material complications as compared to fiberglass I often placed link to your CC repair thread and requested that visitors read your thread from post 1 to its end. For those who have missed it, here it is again: “I'm about to start a project on an older Chris Craft”http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s32/im-about-start-project-older-chriscraft-6833.html

As always, best luck in your projects and I hope to get time to visit again to see your handiwork on the hard before the Chris goes “SPLASH”!

Cheers! - Art