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Greetings,
Mr.ksanders. PLEASE tell me where I can get a 5% interest rate on my savings these days!

Heck, RT - You can get way more than 5% interest... you can get the whole kit n' caboodle! :thumb:

Just start a Ponzi Scheme. Buy a really big boat for impression purposes only... of course. Schmooze with all the investors. :socool:

And, have your supply of single bed sheets ready for when you eventually begin bunking with Bernie Madoff! Made Off with all the loot that is! :rofl:
 
Greetings,
Mr.ksanders. PLEASE tell me where I can get a 5% interest rate on my savings these days!

RT, you can get 5.4% in Oz if you shop around. So if you send over some used money in $50 notes I will look after it for you. :socool:
 
well 5% is not really the true cost of borrowing or investing money.
if inflation in that market is 3% or perhaps 5%, well then you see the true interest rate is nothing to write home about.
instead keep your money safely invested in a boat (or two).
 
Then she'll ask... "But what about all the money the boat cost?????" :confused:

Then I'll tell her that the "true cost" of boating doesn't include what we paid for the boat. :rolleyes:

Nope, it won't work for her, and it won't work for me either.

The only reason the "cost of ownership" number is important is that a surprising number of people only look at the cost of the boat, and figure once they've bought the boat they only "have to change a tire now and again." They are totally unaware of the ongoing cost of keeping a boat operational.

I don't think anyone is making light of the cost to buy the boat in the first place. At least I'm not. You're absolutely correct, it's real money and the amount of it, whether cash or financed, has to be taken into account in determining if one can even afford to get into the hobby. Or if one needs to downsize their dream to match financial reality.

But the potential buyer also has to be aware that it costs a lot of money to own and operate the boat once they've figured out how to buy it. And that often--- according to the brokers I know--- is a cost that a lot of buyers, particularly first time buyers, overlook. We did, initially, and we were very grateful when our broker brought it up and gave us the kinds of ownership costs we'd be looking at.

When a newbie buyer is told that insurance is $1200 a year and that moorage is $4,800 a year and if they need to have the engine mounts changed it's going to cost $2,000 to $4,000 to do it, and the cost to replace that tired old exhaust hose is $1,000 and so on, it can be a real shock..

Sure, some of these costs can be mitigated by doing the work yourself. But a lot of new buyers haven't a clue how to do any of it, at least not at the outset.

So of course the purchase and finance costs have to be included in the overall cost of buying and owning a boat. But there can be a helpful reason for splitting the purchase/finance cost off from the annual ownership cost so a potential buyer has a better understanding of what they're really getting into.

We've seen several cases of people buying cruising boats (and sailboats) and as the bills roll in for fixing this or doing that they get themselves underwater with the boat and have either ended up losing it to the bank or having to sell it at a loss just to get away from the ongoing ownership costs. And I'm sure people on this forum with way more time in boating than us have seen more of these cases than we have.

That's the only value of calculating and talking about ownership costs that don't include the purchase/finance payment costs.. To prevent someone from getting in over their head even if they can afford the initial acquisition cost of the boat.
 
The only reason the "cost of ownership" number is important is that a surprising number of people only look at the cost of the boat, and figure once they've bought the boat they only "have to change a tire now and again." They are totally unaware of the ongoing cost of keeping a boat operational.


I've seen it many times as well.

Too many owners can afford to buy the boat, but they cannot afford to maintain it properly.

What they should have done, or should do is buy a smaller boat. One they can afford to maintain.
 
What they should have done, or should do is buy a smaller boat. One they can afford to maintain.

Hence the advice I read way back in the early 60s in a Boy's Life Magazine story, "Buy the smallest boat you can afford."

Which does not mean to buy a boat that's too small for your purposes.
 
well 5% is not really the true cost of borrowing or investing money.
if inflation in that market is 3% or perhaps 5%, well then you see the true interest rate is nothing to write home about.
instead keep your money safely invested in a boat (or two).

I have three boats currently... Instead of my $$$ "invested in"... I like to call it "floating the notes"! :thumb: :rofl: :dance:
 
I make every effort to stay on top of and ahead of my boat's needs, plus the odd upgrade here and there. I keep very detailed records of everything, including all receipts. But I never, ever, add them up. Uh uh. No way.
 
Heck, RT - You can get way more than 5% interest... you can get the whole kit n' caboodle! :thumb:

Just start a Ponzi Scheme. Buy a really big boat for impression purposes only... of course. Schmooze with all the investors. :socool:

And, have your supply of single bed sheets ready for when you eventually begin bunking with Bernie Madoff! Made Off with all the loot that is! :rofl:

Well anyone who will give millions to a guy named Made Off needs to take another look. However he did make off with the money. Then he also wound up with 3 hots and a cot off the government. Is this a great country or what?:D
 
But seriously now folks,

In reality there are too many variables to accurately tell someone how much it will cost to own a boat. The biggest ones being:

1) what condition the boat and it's systems are in when you buy it
2)what enhancements you want to add
3) what condition are you satisfied with ongoing .
4) How much value you put on your own time, what your skill levels are and how much do you enjoy doing various boat fixing/maintaining/upgrade work.

Things like fuel and insurance are almost insignificant, even when cruising full time and several thousand miles a year (fuel cost being irrelevant due to cruising extent).

One thing I see is that a lot of people do not add a reserve into their yearly budget for future large expense, say overhauling/replacing an engine, generator or transmission, or two...

For a "newbie" the first 2/3 or so of David Pascoe's "Mid Sized Power Boats" is as good a primer on how long all the different things on a boat last, as well as basics such as construction, ergonomics, etc.
 
Greetings,
Mr.ksanders. PLEASE tell me where I can get a 5% interest rate on my savings these days!

I have money that's professionally managed and the return is more than 5%, at least in the long term.

But no, you won't get 5% at your local bank. And as someone else pointed out, if you earn 5% but inflation is 3%, you're really only earning 2%.
 
Well anyone who will give millions to a guy named Made Off needs to take another look. However he did make off with the money. Then he also wound up with 3 hots and a cot off the government. Is this a great country or what?:D

Don

To further iterate... Just for S&G (and a somewhat spiritual thing) I watch names pretty closely as per their resulting meaning-association with a person’s actions. There actually are some pretty funny (maybe quite telling... depending on how you look at it) similarities twixt name spelling/pronunciations and what a person does... or might do. "Madoff" is one, SF Bay area police officer "Innocentie" another, and "Steve Liesman" - as well as - "Art Cashin” being a couple others’ telling names for prime contributors on the stock market’s TV “Money Chanel”, i.e. CNBC. Then there is the HIGH Pressure stock salesmen “Jim Cramer” on CNBC’s Mad Money show... note the root words - - > “Lies”, “Cash”, and “Cram” in their last names. There are many others I notice from time to time; but here I mention enough to maybe whet your appetite/interest. :thumb:

Carry On! - Art :D
 
Art-

How about the MSNBC reporter on election night-her name is Krystal Ball!
 
Art-

How about the MSNBC reporter on election night-her name is Krystal Ball!

TOOOO Funny! :rofl: :lol:

Think about the name (probably chosed by ad execs) of the recent young heart throb guy singer, i.e. pronounced, Just - In - Beaver. "Beaver" meant a certain item... we guys were all after... when I was younger! lol Mater o' fact I am still to this day, I married one!
 
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Greetings,
Mr.ksanders. PLEASE tell me where I can get a 5% interest rate on my savings these days!

thats my first take but second glance and i realized he was refering to investing the money in the boat and 5% being the intertest cost of the loan.
 
thats my first take but second glance and i realized he was refering to investing the money in the boat and 5% being the intertest cost of the loan.


No, my 401-K's are earning about 5% give or take. Thats what I based the number on.
 
No, my 401-K's are earning about 5% give or take. Thats what I based the number on.

Last 7 years your 401 K been avgeraging 5% increase???? Or in last couple years is your 410 attempting to make 5% while trying to catch up from years of loss or at best a push? Just wondering! If it's averaged 5% increase through the down times... Sign Me Up!
 
Last 7 years your 401 K been avgeraging 5% increase???? Or in last couple years is your 410 attempting to make 5% while trying to catch up from years of loss or at best a push? Just wondering! If it's averaged 5% increase through the down times... Sign Me Up!


No, we've lost some of our retirement money "profits", but I have to say that the "leave it alone" approach has done OK.

edit... You got me thinking so I went to one of those compound interest calculators and tried it out on my wifes lump sum retirement discribution she recieved in 1995. Using her real numbers, she earned approx 6.25% compounded quarterly on her retirement between sep 1995 and sep 2012. We have not added to it, or touched it, and only traded funds once in that time period. so yes, I'd guess that my 5% number is a valid "cost of ownership".

But back on the topic of this dissussion....

The amount of dollars that your boat costs you in either income, lost income potential, depreciation of value, or any other measure is a real, tangable cost of boat ownership

Its one I have been happy to pay but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The real question in my mind is wether its cheaper to buy a lower upfront cost boat and fix it up, or weather its cheaper to buy a higher upfront cost boat and just keep it up.

I suspect that the cheapest boating of all is to buy a lower upfront cost boat and just keep the systems working, while ignoring the cosmetic, and the unnecessary to repair items. Then sell the boat for whatever you can get out of it in 15 years. Thats not my strategy, I cannot operate like that, but it would make for inexpensive boating.
 
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I suspect that the cheapest boating of all is to buy a lower upfront cost boat and just keep the systems working, while ignoring the cosmetic, and the unnecessary to repair items. Then sell the boat for whatever you can get out of it in 15 years. Thats not my strategy, I cannot operate like that, but it would make for inexpensive boating.


That's pretty much where I am at the moment. If I could just figure out a convenient way to avoid slip fees I'd be super happy. But I'm really suffering from paralysis by analysis. Pour money into repairs on this boat to get her ship-shape? Dump her and buy something more up to scratch? Run her as is until she becomes unsafe or completely falls apart? Decisions, decisions!
 
That's pretty much where I am at the moment. If I could just figure out a convenient way to avoid slip fees I'd be super happy. But I'm really suffering from paralysis by analysis. Pour money into repairs on this boat to get her ship-shape? Dump her and buy something more up to scratch? Run her as is until she becomes unsafe or completely falls apart? Decisions, decisions!

Way I see it: Buy a good boat, in good condition, at a good price and keep her up to snuff. Then... play with her as you may, add to her as you desire, keep costs where they are comfortable for ourselves and enjoy the heck out of boating life! We just might not see tomorrow (next week/month/year), so, today (next week/month/year) is what it's all about! :dance:
 
I suspect that the cheapest boating of all is to buy a lower upfront cost boat and just keep the systems working, while ignoring the cosmetic, and the unnecessary to repair items. Then sell the boat for whatever you can get out of it in 15 years.

That's about what I did in reality. Bought a boat in a screaming deal at about half / third of market value and will keep adding and updating things that make a difference (and add value). I can sell my boat today for a profit, and the cost of bringing it to where I want it will only close that gap. If done right, I'm only losing money on my labor. (That a guy buying a nicer boat wouldn't have to invest)

I also was able to sell my previous boat and pay cash for the small difference, so that investment is all that is at risk. No interest, no real depreciation to speak of.
 
Using the government's inflation number is meaningless unless you apply your particular situation. The indexes they use may only affect you a portion of that number, or a very large portion of it (or even may exceed it).
 
Yep. But you have to admit.... boats haven't been valued this low in 20 years. Hard to go wrong IF owning a boat is a foregone conclusion.

(I face my addiction) :)
 
In 2007 I encouraged a coworker, a breast cancer survivor to sell stock she held and buy a boat she wanted rather than borrow the money. Today that stock is nearly worthless and the quality used boat she bought has held its value.

Aren't I the hero and how do you compute that boating cost? Carpe Diem.
 
~~~I suspect that the cheapest boating of all is to buy a lower upfront cost boat and just keep the systems working, while ignoring the cosmetic, and the unnecessary to repair items. Then sell the boat for whatever you can get out of it in 15 years.~~~
It's how I stay in boating with meager retirement resources...just keep her safe, reliable and comfortable...but 'selling' is not part of our consideration. Boating is too important to us to be be haunted with the aspect of needing to recoup something.

IMAG2134.jpg
 
That's pretty much where I am at the moment. If I could just figure out a convenient way to avoid slip fees I'd be super happy. But I'm really suffering from paralysis by analysis. Pour money into repairs on this boat to get her ship-shape? Dump her and buy something more up to scratch? Run her as is until she becomes unsafe or completely falls apart? Decisions, decisions!

That's about what I did in reality. Bought a boat in a screaming deal at about half / third of market value and will keep adding and updating things that make a difference (and add value). I can sell my boat today for a profit, and the cost of bringing it to where I want it will only close that gap. If done right, I'm only losing money on my labor. (That a guy buying a nicer boat wouldn't have to invest)

I also was able to sell my previous boat and pay cash for the small difference, so that investment is all that is at risk. No interest, no real depreciation to speak of.


If you think about it thats a great method to enjoy the water, and thats what its all about.

What I did is to buy a boat and make her into a new boat, outfitted the way I want for extended cruising. The reason I did that is simply because I know that in a few years I'll retire. After retirement I won't have the financial resources to do the big things like replace engines so I did it now, while I still can.

That way I pretty well ensured my ability to stay boating into my retirement years.
 
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I suspect that the cheapest boating of all is to buy a lower upfront cost boat and just keep the systems working, while ignoring the cosmetic,

That's sort of what we did, but without the ignoring part. We decided on the oldest fiberglass GB we could find that was in good-- at least operationally-- condition. We did not want a boat that would need any work before we could start using it. We picked GBs because even though they are not our favorite design by any means they are extremely well built, particularly the first year or so of fiberglass, and the older ones are the next thing to being free. So tremendous value for the money.

But we have not ignored the cosmetics, sysems, etc. In fact that's one reason we chose and older boat, to give us a "hobby" that we could work on together. We both enjoy working with wood and so the rainforest of exterior trim, rails, etc. on an older GB is actually what we wanted. It's been a lot of fun learning how to maintain and improve the wood, what finishes and processes are the best, and so forth. We both really like teak decks and hate fiberglass ones, so it's been an interesting, fun, and somewhat challenging process to first learn all about the proper care and feeding of a teak deck and then use what we learned on a now-40-year-old deck.

The only frustration is the lack of time we can spend working on the boat. We use it year round but my schedule and the weather conspire to prevent us from doing a lot of the exterior projects properly. We try to keep up with it--- that's one reason for all the exterior covers; they keep deterioration of the wood we haven't got to yet to a minimum. But someday we hope to have the time to really give the boat the attention it needs.

Either that or we'll just take it up to a yard in Vancouver or Sidney and tell them to turn it into a brand new boat and call us when it's done.
 
Way I see it: Buy a good boat, in good condition, at a good price and keep her up to snuff. Then... play with her as you may, add to her as you desire, keep costs where they are comfortable for ourselves and enjoy the heck out of boating life! We just might not see tomorrow (next week/month/year), so, today (next week/month/year) is what it's all about! :dance:
Good advice. Except a used boat, even well surveyed, may give up its secrets over time as you get to know it, like what I call "the strawberry punnet syndrome", "deeper you go worse it gets". In my case I committed to a major deck reno; had I not the boat would in time have been severely affected.
Life is not a rehearsal, get on and enjoy it.
 
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