'Get Home' Outboards

jeffnick said:

Someone needs to tweak these to run on diesel.

The first outboard engine ever available to the general public that's capable of running on multiple fuel types, including kerosene, JP-4, JP-5, JP-8, Jet A and Jet B as well as standard gasoline.

Multi-Fuel Engines Any Time. Any Place. Any Fuel. Engines | Evinrude Canada

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I saw one of these at the New Orleans Workboat shore the Evinrude rep said they will run on diesel in an emergency but will foul up after about 30 min. this was a 30 HP on a military application.

This looks interesting:
http://www.cast-aways.com/d27.htm
Steve W

sunchaser said:

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bffloyd45 said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]." Keep in mind DeFever designs use a 10 hp motor as a come home engine and the claim is 5kts in a 29,000lb vessel!"[/FONT]

This is utter nonsense. - how about some DF examples in real waves.

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i dont believe it either but its what's stated in an article i have a copy of from 1980 when boats configured like this were sold. They were made in Santa Ana California and also i believe Costa Measa. Not sure about CM.
I can email you a copy of the article ifyour interested?

Marketing fluff.

This has really gotten silly. It's obvious that a small outboard can be an effective get home engine. As the boat gets bigger and the conditions get worse it is less effective.

Marin, your story of the current being so strong that the boat couldn't be kept off the rocks with 50 hp is scary but I think very few of us ever see currents like that. In less chalenging conditions the 50 hp outboard would have been very effective.

Hop Car,
I couldn't say it better ...

"This has really gotten silly. It's obvious that a small outboard can be an effective get home engine. As the boat gets bigger and the conditions get worse it is less effective."

That's all there is to it Marin. If both your engines quit and you had a 4hp on your swimstep I'll bet you'd be start'in it right up.

sunchaser said:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]
bffloyd45 said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]." Keep in mind DeFever designs use a 10 hp motor as a come home engine and the claim is 5kts in a 29,000lb vessel!"[/FONT]

This is utter nonsense. - how about some DF examples in real waves.

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Be careful here, bffloyd45. Tom probably knows more about deFever boats than everyone else here combined.

And while I know virtually nothing about deFevers other than I really like the looks of the deFever 46, my guess is that they, like Nordhavn, use a diesel engine for a wing engine regardless of what horsepwer it might be. Different torque and other performance figures than a little outboard. So it'a an apples to oranges comparison I think.

Marin has with his last post, put the perspective of how to return home on, in the smaller single engine craft (0-35 foot?) with an auxaillery OB engine of compatiable size to serve the need as the owner sees it. On single engine craft beyond 35 feet, a fixed installed auxiliary method such as a small inboard with it's own shaft/prop, a hydraulic coupling from the vessel gen set, or a separate chain driven dedicated small engine.
The point is to increase safety as well off set the lack of a second twin screw engine application.
Each owner has his particular reason to live with a single or twin screw vessel. Safety is the paramount goal. It serves to have a reasonable discussion laying out the pros and cons of the different applications. Perhaps out of such a discussion, other forum members not as vocal as we have been, will be moved to explore the applications of the discussion to increasing the safety momentum he or she may have been contemplating and procrastinating on regarding mounting or installing a method of motivation out of a future dire straits situation or memory of the last one!
Been a good discussion.
As it continues additional comments, theory, specifics, and general good mood will be enjoyed.
Cheers
A.M.(Al)Johnson-Ketchikan
27' Marben pocket trawler
"I'm not old. I'm Chronologically Gifted!"

"Each owner has his particular reason to live with a single or twin screw vessel. Safety is the paramount goal."

Its a lot easier to crunch the exposed shaft on a twin than have a catastropic engine or drive line failure on a single.

I ran a yard in Sag Harbor a summer or 3 and was delighted with the ability of twins to chew on a particular rock formation, and keep the crew busy all summer !

Running aground is part of cruising , the boat should be able to survive .

If there is a "next boat" it will be able to live in what the Brits call a "mud berth" where the boat is aground every low tide.

Northern Spy said:

Ok guys, I'm back. What did i miss? I just had to run down to the marina and tell all the guys with the 9.9 and 15hp kickers on their boats that they wont work.

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Sure you did. (I'm betting you did no such thing.)

Guys who fish in center console boats use "kicker" motors so they can move the boat slowly in calm water.

Again, how well is a 10 or 15 hp outboard motor going to move a 10,000 lb trawler in rough seas against the current? And my trawler is small and light compared to many.

Look at 100 trawlers and notice how many have kicker motors mounted on their sterns. How many did you see? My guess is zero. Why? Because it's not going to work.

markpierce said:

This is an example of most boaters' "get home motor."............

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That's my "get home motor" as well. The color is the same but the name on the side is different.

I think the concept of using a small (5HP) to push a heavy trawler in anything but calm conditions is unrealistic. Also, as stated previously, unless you routinely carry adequate gasoline or 2T, the OB is not going to get you very far. In the types of difficult wind/tide situations being discussed, trying to jury rig a small OB should take second place to getting anchor(s) down. It would be good to hear from anyone who has actually used a small OB to save their boat or who has tested this approach as an emergency procedure. While I do believe that my 40HP Honda / RIB combo would have a chance of steering my 65000lb boat in reasonable conditions, it would be good for only 10-12 miles before running out of gas (10 gallons). In a real emergency it would need to be already tied on alongside to be of any help. Otherwise time spent launching and attaching it could be a problem. I know that yards rountinely use OB work-boats to move boats around, but that is usually in calm, protected conditions. I also know that sailboats are often powered with much smaller engines than trawlers, but they also handle completely differently to beamy, heavy power boats.

rwidman said:

Look at 100 trawlers and notice how many have kicker motors mounted on their sterns. How many did you see? My guess is zero. Why? Because it's not going to work.

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Well, around here (north coast BC) you see quite a few with kickers, or with the brackets for kickers on their arse end. There is no 'vessel assist' or 'tow service' in these parts, and the marina's are at least 50 miles apart, so you have to be self reliant.

Chrisjs said:

In the types of difficult wind/tide situations being discussed, trying to jury rig a small OB should take second place to getting anchor(s) down.

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Anchorages up here can be over 10 miles apart, separated by near vertical rock walls that continue down another 800 feet or so to the ocean floor.

Chrisjs said:

While I do believe that my 40HP Honda / RIB combo would have a chance of steering my 65000lb boat in reasonable conditions, it would be good for only 10-12 miles before running out of gas (10 gallons).

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Ours is 15000 lbs, or there about's, so it's an option.

Murray

MurrayM said:

Well, around here (north coast BC) you see quite a few with kickers, or with the brackets for kickers on their arse end. There is no 'vessel assist' or 'tow service' in these parts, and the marina's are at least 50 miles apart, so you have to be self reliant.

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Murray - I think you'll find that most of the kickers are for fishing. Many of the boats won't travel slow enough to troll for salmon thus the little kickers are added. It's a PNW thing because of the fishery.
I'm sure some realize additional benefits with their little outboards.

Anode said:

Murray - I think you'll find that most of the kickers are for fishing. Many of the boats won't travel slow enough to troll for salmon thus the little kickers are added. It's a PNW thing because of the fishery.I'm sure some realize additional benefits with their little outboards.

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You're right, but there's many a tale where the line "...and we got home on the kicker" is part of the story

Nice boat, by the way

I think that if your boating is such that you feel the need for a backup engine, you should consider that when you purchase the boat. Either buy one with twin engines (and seperate fuel supplies) or buy a boat with a "get home engine" designed into the boat.

Adding an outboard, custom bracket, fuel supply, steering system, etc. just doesn't seem very practical.

rwidman said:

I think that if your boating is such that you feel the need for a backup engine, you should consider that when you purchase the boat. Either buy one with twin engines (and seperate fuel supplies) or buy a boat with a "get home engine" designed into the boat.

Adding an outboard, custom bracket, fuel supply, steering system, etc. just doesn't seem very practical.

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There is no perfect boat for each of us, just one with the least number of compromises. I've never seen flybridges as very practical...

rwidman said:

Again, how well is a 10 or 15 hp outboard motor going to move a 10,000 lb trawler in rough seas against the current?

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FWIW, our 26' diesel cruiser weighs 11,000 lb on the water, loaded for a summer's cruise.

Our 9.9 hp hi-thrust kicker moves her at ~4 knots in calmish water, ~3 knots in 20 knots and a 3 foot closely spaced chop. The larger diameter, lower pitch, lower-geared prop makes it work. The motor bracket puts the prop entirely below the hull (over to one side) when in use. The prop protector, like that in one of the photos above, offers a bit of a kort nozzle effect that makes it work even a bit better, although its primary mission is to keep fishing line and downrigger cable out of the prop in the swirling Alaskan currents we often fish in.

The kicker will not move us directly against a 4-knot current, but since our hull speed is only 4.5 knots or so, a considerably larger get-home engine wouldn't do much better.

A factory built-in 10-gallon section of one of the 60-gal fuel tanks is dedicated to gas and plumbed to the kicker. It also provides additional supply for our 2hp dinghy motor.

Rather than an out board, I been thinking about using the 12 ft Livingston 25 hp and/or 19 ft run, 140 hp as a get home to tow and/or push. The neatest set up I have seen was a Krogan had a set up on the stern that the dink fit into to so it was sort of part of the boat. We have towed the 19 ft run about many times, and it can go 35+ MPH so its great to zip around in and use the Eagle as the mother boat. Most bigger boats have a smaller faster tender.

As the boats get bigger, so does the need for kicker/get home motor.

I think the idea of towing / pushing your trawler to safety is the best idea for a dinghy. It may not get you home, but it would get you to safe anchorage in most cases. Even a small dinghy can push a big boat around in some limited fashion.

HopCar said:

Marin, your story of the current being so strong that the boat couldn't be kept off the rocks with 50 hp is scary but I think very few of us ever see currents like that. In less chalenging conditions the 50 hp outboard would have been very effective.

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I agree. As I said some posts back, what you choose for a get-home engine will depend not only on the size/weight/windage of your boat but also the conditions under which you boat.

In this area (PNW) the tidal range can be quite large with the resulting strong currents. This is true even in a large body of water, like out in the middle of the Strait of Georgia. So the conditions I described in the story of our friend are not all that uncommon up here. And don't forget, his experience occured just after slack current. So the current was just beginning to build. At maximum current in this particular pass the water is moving at some 7 knots. There are other passes here and up the coast where the maximum current is much higher.

Another friend lost the water pump on the engine in his Newport 30 sloop when he was transiting one of the larger channels in the Gulf Islands. And while help arrived fairly quickly he and his wife were within minutes of being carried into the rocks by the current and wind when the Canadian Coast Guard arrived and towed them to safety.

I have posted these two shots before. I took them a few years ago when we were on a buoy at the small island in the San Juans where we have property. It gives a pretty good idea of the typical tidal ranges in this area--- this was not an exceptional high or low tide at all--- and keep in mind that the range gets greater the farther north you go.

So a get-home engine has to be able to cope with the conditions you will face, and there is no one-size-fits-all solution (other than having a twin-engine boat).

manyboats said:

What I'd like to see is an OB mount that keeps the OB vertical and allows it to rise or be lowered a substantial amount at the stern. Willy, w a clear stern would be ideal for this mount but I have no idea where to find one.

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Northern Spy said:

Breeze used to make one. Very popular on Catalina 27s around here. It has a motor mount that slides vertically on two parallel SS rods. Next time I'm at the boat I'll snap a picture.

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Here you go... Don't think either one of them are Breeze though.

manyboats said:

I've seen these mounts in the past. Perhaps I should spend some time on e-bay. e-bay isn't what it used to be re boating stuff.

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Try Used Victoria they have some real interesting tid-bits that come up now and then. There was a Tohatsu or Yanmar diesel outboard on there not too long ago.


Yup. Still there. Yanmar diesel outboard

HopCar said:

This has really gotten silly. It's obvious that a small outboard can be an effective get home engine. .

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Silly? Perhaps, but the reason people continue to post is that it's not "obvious that a small outboard can be an effective get home engine."

If it's obvious to you, fine. It's not obvious to everyone and rightly so.

rwidman said:

Silly? Perhaps, but the reason people continue to post is that it's not "obvious that a small outboard can be an effective get home engine."

If it's obvious to you, fine. It's not obvious to everyone and rightly so.

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From my 30' 15,000 lb-ish frame of reference it seems quite plausible.

The previous owner of our boat, happily and without consequence, made several trips to Catalina Island from BC's north coast. As I don't have that level of confidence yet a kicker seems a good idea, especially since we plan to explore less traveled areas. I'm getting a bigger anchor too

Ron, I'm disapointed it's not obvious to you as well. I thought you were smarter than that.

It's just a matter of matching the size of the motor to the boat and conditions.

This argument reminds me of the discussions on size and number of bilge pumps a boat should have. Not matter how much pumping capacity a boat has someone will point out that an x sized hole will let in more water than the pumps can remove. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have bilge pumps.

A lot of people seemed to be making the argument that because an outboard wouldn't move a particular boat at X speed Y distance in Z mph winds they weren't worth considering as an auxillary engine.

Am I the only one who has actually used an outboard as a come home motor on this forum?

In high school I had a small single engine displacement hull boat. One day I was towing in a string of 5 or 6 opties after a race when my propeller shaft broke. My Dad didn't trust the engine and he had put a little 3 hp Johnson on the back. I started the outboard and completed the tow job. I was glad to have that outboard.

Well Hoppy,
You jumped right in on that one. Since I wanted to see who would so I kept quiet despite my normal tendencies.

Should be a balance of how much good how often v/s how much cost and trouble and under what conditions.

A 25hp GH on Willy is almost the same cost (all things considered) as a 5hp GH. I may have more range w a 10hp and that should get me at least 4 knots. I almost never buck that much current and I should be able to start it up in almost any weather and seas so a good solution for me. But for a 49' DeFever the capabilities would be much less of course but still be able to shove the boat in a desirable and safe direction. So it seems obvious the OB should be of some value as a GH. And there is the fact that there are outboards w plenty of power to push a 49' DeFever at a usable speed.

Hop what's an optie?

Murray,
I'm sure you'd do well w an OB GH. I'll bet you could make 3+ knots w a 9.8.

HopCar said:

A lot of people seemed to be making the argument that because an outboard wouldn't move a particular boat at X speed Y distance in Z mph winds they weren't worth considering as an auxillary engine.

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Not sure anyone's going that far. Only that the outboard needs to be sized to the boat and the boating conditions that could be encountered, using the worst-case scenario as a guide. What is needed up here may not be needed in the Chesapeake, for example.

But if an outboard of suitable power can be mounted in such a way as to be usable on the back of a cruiser, there is no reason I can think of that it would not make a practical get-home motor. But as a cruiser gets larger and heavier, the power requirements go up, particularly if the conditions under which a get-home motor might be used are challenging. At some point, the size and weight of the necessary outboard may become impractical to mount on the boat.

HopCar said:

Ron, I'm disapointed it's not obvious to you as well. I thought you were smarter than that............. .

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If you had been able to phrase ypur reply without the insult, I would be more inclined to read and possibly respond to it.

Yes, you could probably hang a 40HP outboard on the back of a trawler and use it as a "get home engine", but most outboards don't have a long enough shaft to put the prop where it needs to be without submerging the engine. And of course there's dealing with a supply of fuel for the outboard unless you find a diesel outboard. And you need to run it every week or two or it's not likely to start when you need it. It's going to be mighty hard to steer as well.

When you get yours set up and running, how about posting a video so we can all see how well it works?