Propane Bottle Location Requirements

A "certified surveyor" is a person with a piece of paper that says they are a certified surveyor. I think Rick and others have pretty convincingly demonstrated that having a piece of paper is not a guarantee of anything.

Marin said:

A "certified surveyor" is a person with a piece of paper that says they are a certified surveyor. I think Rick and others have pretty convincingly demonstrated that having a piece of paper is not a guarantee of anything.

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Haha! So a person with a piece of paper that says they are a certified surveyor and Rick are "the internet armchair crowd." That's rich Marin!

Marin said:

It's actually all rather irrlevant since the ABYC standards are ABYC standards, not anybody's law. According to the ABYC, just about every Grand Banks boat on the planet is not compliant because the propane "locker" on the flying bridge is simply the space under one of the flying bridge seats that has a vent to the outside of the boat. There is no "gasketed lid" or anything else. The boats were built this way and I have never heard of a surveyor writing one up for this. It has never even come up in all the years I have been participating on the GB owners forum.


So while the internet armchair crowd can debate the meaning of the word "it" and "or," in the real world it seems that as long as common sense is used in the installation of a propane bottle, nobody really cares about the committee wording.

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Well it has come up on our boat...twice...very similar propane system design as for Grand Banks. I've also had a surveyor list exhaust overtemp sensors as a "must do" safety upgrade. Not a bad idea that I might voluntarily elect to do some day, although the boat already has overtemp and low oil pressure alarms. But not something a surveyor should be listing as an ABYC non-compliance thereby requiring that I explain the situation to insurance company.

The point is that common sense does not always prevail.

Surveyors offer there opinion nothing more.

From my experience underwritters have no problem accepting mine when there is an issue between my opinion and a surveyors opinion.

You just have to back up the opinion.

Works for me !

Egregious said:

Haha! So a person with a piece of paper that says they are a certified surveyor and Rick are "the internet armchair crowd." That's rich Marin!

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Rick isn't as he's an actual professional in the industry. But pretty much everyone else on this toy boat forum, including me, if they said on a sunny day the sky was blue I'd look up to check for myself.

99.9999999 percent of what is posted on forums like this is personal opinion and as such it is worth exactly what you pay for it. As I have said before, I never act on any piece of advice I see on forums like this without checking with a credible source first.

Actually, I lie. There is one piece of advice I have seen on this forum that I have actually taken and that was Keith's on using GoJo to clean fenders and groundpower cords. So far as I've been concerned, that is the single most valuable thing I've gotten from TF since it's inception. Outside of that, it's just been a social network and an entertaining diversion.

You are missing my point, as usual. I'm not arguing whether or not surveyors know what they are talking about. I was attempting to make fun of Marin. Obviously it didn't work.

I apologize. Egregious out.

Surveyors always feel they have to find "something". The better your boat is set up and maintained, the more they have to make up stuff. I've seen some really silly stuff on mine, like "No compass deviation card was sighted." Or a wing door that had a latch that didn't work. It was listed as a security issue, although you can board the boat on either side of it even when it's closed. If I get one like the latter, I just write to the insurance company and they have always agreed with me. Take it as a compliment if you get these silly things on your survey, but always make the insurance company happy, one way or another.

Jeniffer,
Here's Willy's propane bottle on the rooftop. There is one coupling inside the boat behind the stove. It's one of those fiberglass tanks that one can see through and that feature comes in handy. It seems to last a long time. Chris can't remember if we had to fill it on our trip south (33 days) or mot. The only problem is the moisture in the cabin but is easily cleared out. Frankly I din't see any other practical and acceptable cooking stove type. Electric is totally unacceptable re the generator. Chris really likes and uses her oven too.

Here is a link to the ABYC requirements:

http://www.abycinc.org/committees/A-01.pdf

The Coot's propane tank is held in the phoney stack on top of the saloon roof. The "u" fittings are where stretch cords are attached to secure the tank. The "snap-down" fittings are to secure the fiberglass stack cover.

Jennifer, To answer your question, there is nothing wrong with mounting your propane bottles under the flybridge provided the area is well vented. The Marine Traders came that way from the factory and Beach House has been set up this way for 32 years without any mishaps. You can plug the wire chase with modeling clay if that concerns you. We haven't done that to ours. I would also highly recommend you install a sniffer no matter where your propane bottles are and that will alert you to any leaks. You can even get dual sensors and put one low in the boat and the other near the wire chases if that gives you added security. Bottom line is that you can safely do this regardless of arguments for "Standards" requirements. Our boat has been surveyed four times by credible surveyors and they passed the propane set up. ABYC is a set of RECOMMENDATIONS designed for manufacturers of boats and by no means requirements, code, law or anything else. If practical, follow them, but it's not a must. Chuck

So who is a qualified surveyor?

I don’t know because I’ve never met one. I’ve looked, but no luck.

Never met a single NAMS, or SAMS surveyor I would pay a dime to.

Mike

Sceptic said:

So who is a qualified surveyor?

I don’t know because I’ve never met one. I’ve looked, but no luck.

Never met a single NAMS, or SAMS surveyor I would pay a dime to.

Mike

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With that attitude, I believe you'll never find one.

Why not install an induction cooktop and be done with it. All this talk about propane is so last century and quite frankly full of gas.

sunchaser said:

Why not install an induction cooktop and be done with it. All this talk about propane is so last century and quite frankly full of gas.

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We thought about induction; they still take quite a bit of power and/or genset running to run....plus the additional power usage for the convection oven.

rwidman said:

Here is a link to the ABYC requirements ...

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If you charter your American flagged boat (other than bare boat) please note that some of the ABYC standards may apply when they are "incorporated by reference" in the CFRs.

This is the only time and the only circumstance where ABYC standards are actually requirements. This is one of the areas of compliance where the "toy boat" surveyors receive little if any guidance or training.

There is no requirement for a surveyor's "certificate" or "number" candidate to show any professional knowledge or experience in the operation or maintenance of marine systems. All they have to do is follow another hammer knocker around for a certain length of time.

ABYC "certification" only requires paying a large amount of money to take a test on the standards .... the standards, not the content or intent or subject ... just the standards. And we have just seen that holding a certificate or number does not mean they can even read their own standards correctly, much less apply them.

The unholy alliance between surveyors and insurance agents only aggravates the situation of the blind leading the blind at the boat owner's expense.

A survey is a consumer purchase ... buyer beware!

And we have just seen that holding a certificate or number does not mean they can even read their own standards correctly, much less apply them.

Just like a boat "captains" license , paper test , no functioning skills ever need to be displayed.

*****

I am not sure an induction range would operate with less than a super pri$y sine wave inverter.

I would love to use a quick hot plate , but I'm not going to toss a $150 inverter for a $2800-$4000 unit .

Anyone attempt it yet, with a chop chop inverter?

I am a Protective Coatings Inspector by trade. Inspectors and Surveyors are from the same mold. The client assumes that the Inspector knows his/her job and thus reacts to the reports appropriately. Unfortunately, there are many, that for lack of a bettter expression, make $hit up and people tend to believe them. From my personal experience I can say that the 'make $hit up' crowd are usually very incompetant. Not just from the $hit they make up but also from the fact that they didn't really inspect like they were supposed to, so they are compelled to make the client feel like they did something. If they were to state something was not in compliance they would have actually had to look at it so they make $hit up.

sunchaser said:

Why not install an induction cooktop and be done with it. All this talk about propane is so last century and quite frankly full of gas.

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Electrical cooking may make sense for some folks, but not for everyone. It's certainly not a good choice on a boat with no genset. Even with a genset available, what about the noise of running it?

Aside from the availability of electricity on a boat, let's consider efficiency. What seems more efficient, burning fuel to heat food or burning fuel to create electriciry and then passing the electricity through resistance wire to create heat to cook food?

rwidman said:

Aside from the availability of electricity on a boat, let's consider efficiency. What seems more efficient, burning fuel to heat food or burning fuel to create electriciry and then passing the electricity through resistance wire to create heat to cook food?

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Ron, of course, what you say is true. We cook electric (except thanks to dvd my new butane stove). At anchor we usually run the generator an hour or so in the morning and evening. This charges the batteries, heats our water, and cooks our meals. It can even take the chill off the boat, or get rid of humidity in the evenings. We have never run the generator over night. We are sometimes in an anchorage 3 or 4 nights. So the main engines are not used for charging.

Because Vero Beach is such a pleasant stop, I'm thinking next time down to go up to take a mooring to do just that. Life is good on a mooring or the hook.

FF -- You are correct, the chop chop inverters are not a good fit for inductions. We boat like Don with about an hour of genset time AM and PM. It also works good for washing/drying clothes when cruising for months at a time. Induction uses about 2/3 the amps of a a conventional electric cooktop and is faster and easier to modulate than gas. Not to mention safer as amplified by this thread.

Independent engineers, "firms, surveyors or inspectors are a contractual necessary evil when building large industrial complexes. These very large contracts require an arbitration and dispute resolution clause, with agreed upon in advance, named third party reviewers to deal with claims shoddy workmanship, billing problems, errors and ommissions. Rickb - I can only but assume a multi million $$ yacht contract(s) includes similar language and clauses? Hopefully more than a tap tap guy in capability.

Pau Hana said:

We thought about induction; they still take quite a bit of power and/or genset running to run....plus the additional power usage for the convection oven.

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We've been thinking about this option as well. The reason I'm considering propane is we anchor out a lot and it gets old to have to fire up the genny to use the stove, or think of things to eat that don't need to be cooked or can be barbecued. Not to mention it takes FOREVER to cook bacon on the electric range vs ten minutes on a propane stove.

regardless of whether the surveyor was making **** up we didn't need a giant home BBQ sized propane tank on the sundeck. The little bottles work just fine for the amount of barbecuing we do.

Greetings,
Mmmmmm.....bacon....

Jennifer

At home, we replaced a gas range with induction. Induction is as fast as gas to heat up. Induction tops have no heating elements per se so when you want to cool down, it is fast as gas. Many new build boats are foregoing gas or convenntional electric cooktops and going induction. With a PSW inverter induction is pretty nice and precludes firing up the genset for those shorter cooking jobs.

Not to mention safety.

Jennifer--- Our boat was built with a propane galley as well as with a 7.5kw generator, but even though we could power an electric galley we would never have one, on this or any other boat we might ever own. In fact, if we bought a boat with an electric galley we would most likely--- funds allowing--- swap it out for a propane galley.

Several reasons, in the order of importance---

1. My wife much prefers "cooking with gas" than electricity. More control over the heat, faster response to heat adjustments, etc. (My idea of cooking is using a can opener and my idea of gourmet cooking is using a platinum can opener, so I am only parroting what my wife says here.) She's used induction cooktops and has not been impressed with them at all although she does say it is far superior to a standard electric burner system. This is obviously a matter of personal preference, however.

2. A propane galley requires no generator. I don't have an objection to using a generator other than the people who leave them running all day, but generators break down from time to time and I would not want to be on a cruise when that happens with an electric galley. We can complete a longer cruise just fine without the generator. We couldn't without the galley.

3. Propane availability is not a problem in this area. If we boated in a place where it was, then an electric galley could have greater appeal.

4. If we were at risk of running out of propane on a cruise, then an electric galley could have more appeal. The award-winning chef of a corporate yacht I was associated with a number of years ago despised cooking with electricity. But the way the yacht was used in the summer up north in BC would have posed the risk of running out of propane at very inopportune times. Plus the way the yacht was used would have required the ability to store a very large amount of propane on the boat. So the yacht had an all-electric galley. However when the galley was totally redesigned and re-equipped in the 1980s, the chef specified all commercial-grade equipment. As he told me, a commercial-grade electric stove-top has much better heat control than the typical household type.

In our case when we had a new range (Force 10) and propane bottle system installed on the boat immediately after buying it, we did occasionally run out of propane in the middle of cooking a meal. So a number of years ago we added a second identical bottle to the "locker" under the flying bridge seat. One bottle will see us through half a year or so depending on use. So with two bottles, the possibility of us running totally out of propane even on a longer cruise is pretty much zero. These are small bottles, too, the Worthington 2.5 gallon horizontal aluminum tanks.

5. I feel that if intelligent safety procedures are followed a propane system is no more potentially dangerous than any other system. We turn off the tank valve of the tank we're using whenever we leave the boat. Our boat has a manual shut-off valve in the propane feed line in the tank compartment up above. Its operating handle is in the galley overhead (not over the stove). We keep that valve closed at all times unless we are actually going to use the stove or oven. And when we are done using the stove or oven, the valve is turned off immediately.

And the Force 10 itself has thermocouples on all the burners that valve the gas going to them. If the flame goes out or a knob gets bumped on accidentally, no gas will go to the burner. We don't trust the thermocouples even though they seem to work as advertised so we do not rely on them. But it is another layer of safety.

The location of the galley stove on all but the very first GB36s is such that you brush past it every time you go to or from the forward cabin. We found that our clothes (or our butts) were sometimes turning on a burner valve as we went by. So I mounted a stainless steel rod to serve as a "guard" for the burner valves and it has virtually eliminated the issue of accidentally turning a valve. (photo)

Bottom line is that we love having a propane galley and would not have it any other way even if we get that Fleming we're always threatening to buy.

PS-- We don't use a full-size BBQ tank for our BBQ either. We use a slim, 1.5 gallon Worthington vertical tank mounted in a stanchion bracket near the rail-mounted BBQ up on the flying bridge.

Great info Marin! Thank you

Mmm bacon indeed. Writing about that made me hungry. Had some coffee cake, since we're underway and I didn't feel like firing up the generator to make bacon.

my setup will ultimately be propane (as anyone who can't handle the dangers shouldn't boat anyway as there are plenty of other dangers...)

a really nice hotplate or two (which is what I and using now) only cost $50 a piece and can be stored easily for the times you don't have or want to use propane...

Speaking for all the southerners here, let's make one thing PERFECTLY CLEAR! The device you cook on is NOT A BBQ... it is GRILL!! Nor is inviting friends over to cook on said grill. You are not "having a BBQ". What you are doing is having a COOK-OUT!! What you cook on it could be considered BBQ if certain criteria are met, but not always. Hot dogs and hamburgers are NOT BBQ either!

Now back to your regularly scheduled argument.

Tom-

Yeee...Haaww...Atta boy Mr. Gonzo