healhustler
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Rick: I don't suppose you happen to have a video of the pull-start.
what to look for in a trawler?
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Rick: I don't suppose you happen to have a video of the pull-start.
Nomad Willy
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Good advice bilgewater!!
Insequent,
Exactly what happened to me but I at least I knew one tank leaked and one didn't when I bought. When we decided to move to Alaska we replaced both fuel tanks and the engine. At that point is was hard to contemplate putting the almost 40 year old engine back in. I usually advise people to look for boats when shopping that already have at least new tanks as most boats require the engine to be removed to get the tanks out. I would have put the old Perkins back in if we hadn't been going to AK. Now of course I'm glad we have the new engine but we got a very good deal on the engine AND the installation so we are (as they say) good to go and we've got some go'in yet to do. Had that "new" engine for 7 years now so I spoze I should stop calling it new.
Rick,
I hope the lawnmower girl is your neighbor.
Insequent,
Exactly what happened to me but I at least I knew one tank leaked and one didn't when I bought. When we decided to move to Alaska we replaced both fuel tanks and the engine. At that point is was hard to contemplate putting the almost 40 year old engine back in. I usually advise people to look for boats when shopping that already have at least new tanks as most boats require the engine to be removed to get the tanks out. I would have put the old Perkins back in if we hadn't been going to AK. Now of course I'm glad we have the new engine but we got a very good deal on the engine AND the installation so we are (as they say) good to go and we've got some go'in yet to do. Had that "new" engine for 7 years now so I spoze I should stop calling it new.
Rick,
I hope the lawnmower girl is your neighbor.
FF
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"at least new tanks"
PROPERLY designed, installed and maintained tanks should not require replacement
EVER!
PROPERLY designed, installed and maintained tanks should not require replacement
EVER!
Nomad Willy
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Not bold at all as there basically isn't any.
Ummm ok. Good luck with that. When you two spring a leak in an ally tank, be sure to pop in and tell us how you get on.
iPad Forum Runner
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Go re read Fred's post you quoted again with emphasis on the CAPITALIZED word. Do not mistake crappy design and pathetic workmanship with proper.
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FF
Fine. Lets turn the clock back to the early 80's and apply what we now know. Basically you are right, but it doesn't help much for buyers of old boats.
In my case the root cause was the poor installation of engine room vents. They were the typical slotted inserts, with no dorade-style protection against water ingress. Over 30 years water, probably mostly rain, got in and lay on top of the tanks and seeped down the sides. One tank it was resting hard against the hull. That side area, and the flat top of the tank had large flaking rust. We are talking magazine sized chunks of rust.
Check your ventilation openings!
Fine. Lets turn the clock back to the early 80's and apply what we now know. Basically you are right, but it doesn't help much for buyers of old boats.
In my case the root cause was the poor installation of engine room vents. They were the typical slotted inserts, with no dorade-style protection against water ingress. Over 30 years water, probably mostly rain, got in and lay on top of the tanks and seeped down the sides. One tank it was resting hard against the hull. That side area, and the flat top of the tank had large flaking rust. We are talking magazine sized chunks of rust.
Check your ventilation openings!
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FF
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PROPER ,
I could cop out and point out the large number of MONEL tanks seen floating around the scrap piles of boat yards that get stuck scrapping wooden boats from the 1920 to 1960 era. That are still 100% useable.
But the problem is budget boats , frequently copies of stolen designs that are built with out the supervision of anyone that has ever even seen or read of a PROPER installation .
With out the internet , there was no place to go instantly (and for free) to find out what is PROPER.
Sadly the first purchasers were more interested in volume and teak , than mechanical installations.
And 30-40 years later the lack of builder knowledge bites.
To bring an older boat back to useful condition is the timeless struggle.
Time (and) or Money.
Replacing a tank set with a marine tank (not a box of fuel) can require an awful lot of cash and work , like lifting the engine., destroying much of the interior , and having a custom tank set created.
Great if working on boats is your boating hobby , a financial disaster if a yard is to do the work.
For most folks , if the tank hasn't sprung leaks you cant repair simply adding a day tank, and feeding it thru a good Raycore 1000 set will "solve 'the problem of having a useable boat..
The cost of a couple of cases of filters for a seasons cruise is way cheaper than R&R.
But then I prefer going out in boats to rebuilding .
I could cop out and point out the large number of MONEL tanks seen floating around the scrap piles of boat yards that get stuck scrapping wooden boats from the 1920 to 1960 era. That are still 100% useable.
But the problem is budget boats , frequently copies of stolen designs that are built with out the supervision of anyone that has ever even seen or read of a PROPER installation .
With out the internet , there was no place to go instantly (and for free) to find out what is PROPER.
Sadly the first purchasers were more interested in volume and teak , than mechanical installations.
And 30-40 years later the lack of builder knowledge bites.
To bring an older boat back to useful condition is the timeless struggle.
Time (and) or Money.
Replacing a tank set with a marine tank (not a box of fuel) can require an awful lot of cash and work , like lifting the engine., destroying much of the interior , and having a custom tank set created.
Great if working on boats is your boating hobby , a financial disaster if a yard is to do the work.
For most folks , if the tank hasn't sprung leaks you cant repair simply adding a day tank, and feeding it thru a good Raycore 1000 set will "solve 'the problem of having a useable boat..
The cost of a couple of cases of filters for a seasons cruise is way cheaper than R&R.
But then I prefer going out in boats to rebuilding .
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FF
I'm doing it. In a yard. Proper. Expensive? Yes. But hardly a financial disaster.
The tank part of the scope is estimated as a bit over $40k. This is for 4 tanks, total capacity 1200 gallons, with a portion of one tank setup as a day tank. Yes, the fuel manifold and polishing system is additional. Yes, I had to remove the engines. And yes I'm doing a bunch of other work, so will have a large bill at the end f it. But I have good LWL, a solid f/g hull that is almost 1" thick on the bottom. I'll have a lot of confidence in the boat and systems when finished, an wont stress about what might happen on a long cruise to an isolated area.
FF
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I'm doing it. In a yard. Proper. Expensive? Yes.
But hardly a financial disaster.
Great , but when the repairs start to approach a good percentage of the initial purchase price , some folks will gasp!
But hardly a financial disaster.
Great , but when the repairs start to approach a good percentage of the initial purchase price , some folks will gasp!
My tanks cost more than my boat. I lost sleep when I installed them making sure they were not put in wrong. Pulled one twice to make sure. $40k sounds like a lot for new tanks, maybe having a gutted boat is a good thing when replacing tanks. Insequent, I like that bow on your vessel. Do you have some pictures of the install of the tanks? I put mine on a very heavy rubber (almost 3/8" thick) over wood, making sure all connectors were well away from the aluminum. Nails did my last tanks in.
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Here's a pic of the tanks last week after some more epoxy paint. The tanks are made from 3/16 primed steel The Aft tanks are in the background and they should go in next week. Hopefully I can post some pics as things progress, but I wont personally be on site for a couple of weeks yet.
The $40k needs some qualifying, it includes other stuff. It includes a fair bit of labor to remove the old tanks, some bulkheads etc. The figure includes fabrication and install of the new tanks, replacing bulkheads and fitting quality sound insulation. I'm also installing sight gauges and cleanout/inspection ports and also about 1/3 of each of the lateral tanks will be a day tank.
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And when its well past the initial price? Of course boats are a bit like houses - you make money when you buy them (at the right price), not when you sell them.
In the case of my boat I would lose on selling, but she's a keeper for at least 10 years and being set up now for that timeframe.
Brian, my tanks were made from 1/4" aluminum. They were easy builds 250 gallons/tank and basic rectangles 2'x2'x8'. There are two baffles and several outlets. Where did you get your sight glasses? Thanks Paul
Here is the prep for the tanks, using the 1/4" rubber
Here are the new tanks
Here is the prep for the tanks, using the 1/4" rubber
Here are the new tanks
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Paul
The yard sourced them, but I think it was from Ballard Hardware in Seattle.
Your aly tanks should be good, but watch out for poultice corrosion
Marginal Maritime Advice: Poultice Corrosion
I considered using aly but my tanks will be too inaccessible to monitor, plus I wanted sound insulation on them. My old painted steel ones lasted 30 years, and as part of the repairs I am fixing the engine room ventilation so that the tanks wont get drenched with water on a regular basis. So I figure epoxy coated steel, with proper install, should last a long time.
Thanks for the article. When doing a project as it seems we are both doing it is good to get some article that backs up what people tell you. The rubber membrane I used was a butel'N substance which is adhired to the tank via contact cement. I was even told to cut it 1/8" short of the 2" support to allow moisture to work it's way from the rubber and away from the tank.
FF
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"Don't buy the biggest boat you can afford, buy the smallest one you can live on"
With in reason I would disagree.About 60 ft can still be single handed , a personal requirement.
The difference in boat size in terms of comfort is huge, a 35 fter will never be comfortable in the chop a 50-60 fter would not even notice. Underway or anchored .
The problem with big boats is some folks stuff a huge amount of expensive complex gear , mostly because they can , to fill the aviliable volume.
Understand the simple , frequently low cost way to live well, and find a "fixer up er" that has mucho mechanical problems and systems , and DUMP THE JUNK!
There are very few Desirements on a boat that can not be handled with simplicity and few bucks , compared to the Bring An Other Thousand "BOAT" hobby some enjoy.
With in reason I would disagree.About 60 ft can still be single handed , a personal requirement.
The difference in boat size in terms of comfort is huge, a 35 fter will never be comfortable in the chop a 50-60 fter would not even notice. Underway or anchored .
The problem with big boats is some folks stuff a huge amount of expensive complex gear , mostly because they can , to fill the aviliable volume.
Understand the simple , frequently low cost way to live well, and find a "fixer up er" that has mucho mechanical problems and systems , and DUMP THE JUNK!
There are very few Desirements on a boat that can not be handled with simplicity and few bucks , compared to the Bring An Other Thousand "BOAT" hobby some enjoy.
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FF
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Big boats can be really cheap to keep , you usually just have to give up the dock walk, and learn to row out to your mooring.
In CT a mooring is about 1/10 the cost of a slip per season.
In CT a mooring is about 1/10 the cost of a slip per season.
FF
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How expensive is it to replace or repair equipment you don't own?
I think you might have spent too much time with the 50 Meter boat boys , where the sat fax machine going down is a crisis!
Or the 5000 GPD water maker breaking down makes the boat uninhabitible?
I think you might have spent too much time with the 50 Meter boat boys , where the sat fax machine going down is a crisis!
Or the 5000 GPD water maker breaking down makes the boat uninhabitible?
A raft can be really cheap to own, too. While it is possible to have a big boat and not spend much money, I think that particular big boat would not be one I'd want anything to do with as it will either be so minimal I wouldn't want to use it or, more likely, in really bad condition.
Expenses like moorage, insurance, power (in some harbors), and haulouts are all going to cost more as boat size goes up. Sure, you can put the boat on a buoy--- maybe--- but most boaters aren't going to want to screw with that. And regardless of where it's sitting, the insurance and haulout fees will be the same unless one has cockamamie ideas about careening the boat on the beach to repaint the bottom.
Most recreational boaters aren't going to want to camp out on a boat with a Coleman stove, a jug of fresh water, a sleeping bag, and a bucket to poop in. So while they may not have or need satcom or watermakers, they want a galley, heat or AC, a fresh water system, head(s), a shower, lights, most likely entertainment like music and/or TV, navigation and communication equipment, and so on. And all this stuff requires maintenance and occasionally repair. And the bigger the boat the longer and perhaps more complex the wire runs and plumbing runs and the more sinks and toilets and lights and so on there will be.
Which is why when we decided to get a cruising boat we followed the advice I read in the 1960s in a boating story in Boy's Life magazine which was "buy the smallest boat you can afford." Which does not mean to buy a boat that's too small for your requirements, but that the smaller a boat you buy for x-dollars, the newer or in better condition it will be.
Expenses like moorage, insurance, power (in some harbors), and haulouts are all going to cost more as boat size goes up. Sure, you can put the boat on a buoy--- maybe--- but most boaters aren't going to want to screw with that. And regardless of where it's sitting, the insurance and haulout fees will be the same unless one has cockamamie ideas about careening the boat on the beach to repaint the bottom.
Most recreational boaters aren't going to want to camp out on a boat with a Coleman stove, a jug of fresh water, a sleeping bag, and a bucket to poop in. So while they may not have or need satcom or watermakers, they want a galley, heat or AC, a fresh water system, head(s), a shower, lights, most likely entertainment like music and/or TV, navigation and communication equipment, and so on. And all this stuff requires maintenance and occasionally repair. And the bigger the boat the longer and perhaps more complex the wire runs and plumbing runs and the more sinks and toilets and lights and so on there will be.
Which is why when we decided to get a cruising boat we followed the advice I read in the 1960s in a boating story in Boy's Life magazine which was "buy the smallest boat you can afford." Which does not mean to buy a boat that's too small for your requirements, but that the smaller a boat you buy for x-dollars, the newer or in better condition it will be.
Nomad Willy
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And I think you've done well Marin.
Here's a "raft". The blue one on the right. Cruising range sucks but accommodations abound and anti-fouling issues don't exist.
This is the McFarland's Flotel in Thorne Bay. The house started out in Ketchikan on land like normal houses but was moved onto the "raft" and has been there for over 30 years I think. The closer pic is of unloading stores brought from town in a container on skiffs.
Here's a "raft". The blue one on the right. Cruising range sucks but accommodations abound and anti-fouling issues don't exist.
This is the McFarland's Flotel in Thorne Bay. The house started out in Ketchikan on land like normal houses but was moved onto the "raft" and has been there for over 30 years I think. The closer pic is of unloading stores brought from town in a container on skiffs.
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MASSIVE THREAD CREEP ALERT! ALL CHILDREN GET AWAY FROM THE WINDOWS AND UNDER YOUR DESKS IMMEDIATELY!
Eric--- I like your floathouse photos. Very scenic place to have them, too. While I wouldn't want to live in a floathouse I really like looking at them. This is one of my favorites. It's in Maple Bay on Vancouver Island.
The fuel range on this one is whatever the tug towing its range is. But, they still have to pay moorage and power. And insurance. So still no free lunch.
Eric--- I like your floathouse photos. Very scenic place to have them, too. While I wouldn't want to live in a floathouse I really like looking at them. This is one of my favorites. It's in Maple Bay on Vancouver Island.
The fuel range on this one is whatever the tug towing its range is. But, they still have to pay moorage and power. And insurance. So still no free lunch.
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Nomad Willy
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THREAD RUSH
Here's an economy model and an expanded one. They usually grow by adding another little float house ... or more. The econo model is for sale last I heard.
I wonder how soon we're going to get caught Rush Creeping Marin?
Here's an economy model and an expanded one. They usually grow by adding another little float house ... or more. The econo model is for sale last I heard.
I wonder how soon we're going to get caught Rush Creeping Marin?
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Guys I dont mind the recent pics at all, in some places I think that accommodation is a great idea.
But Marin, I cant reconcile your 'need for speed' with 'buy the smallest boat you can afford'. Waterline length is everything - speed, well a bit of it anyway, then comes cheap in terms of fuel use.
In theory a very lightweight planing hull would be the answer, but hard to keep it light enough and have all the comforts.
But Marin, I cant reconcile your 'need for speed' with 'buy the smallest boat you can afford'. Waterline length is everything - speed, well a bit of it anyway, then comes cheap in terms of fuel use.
In theory a very lightweight planing hull would be the answer, but hard to keep it light enough and have all the comforts.
Smallest boat you can afford does not mean smaller boat than will meet your requirements. And waterline length is not everything. Ever seen an Eastbay 39? Nice size boat for two people and plenty fast.
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The Eastbay's have their place, and look fine. With 2 x 380 HP (or optional 2 x 500 HP) and just 352 gal fuel they wont go very far at their +20kn cruise speed. But might well serve requirements for folks that have to rush back to work.
