Pay Back Time?

Pineapple Girl said:

... I can think of two memorable incidents where we boat now and in both cases the boats had the burgee of a very expensive yacht club with an exclusive private island. Left the impression that they were too important to be polite to the little people. ... .

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Would those be "St. Frank's" club members? (Club claims to have over 2000 members, but doubt the majority have boats in the Bay Area.) Have noted members of another club (RYC) not displaying lights or making sounds during limited visibility. Nevertheless, doubt they're worse than the typical boater. I believe the vast majority of boaters are well intentioned or at least believe in self/property preservation but perhaps ignorant, club associated or not.

markpierce said:

Someone could be subject to civil liability.

Law and Disorder

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What is it with Americans and suing people hahaha. (Just playing fellas. Don't get all huffy.)

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Because we get in too much trouble for beatin' the hell out of them nowdays.

Keith said:

Because we get in too much trouble for beatin' the hell out of them nowdays.

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Hahaha

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skipperdude said:

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My motto... being a good seaman means you are responsible for EXPECTING a wake at any time and being prepared. While they may be uncomfortable...they should not be damaging or dangerous....or you need to buy a different boat....

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So you're point is that the guy with the biggest boat is entitled to wake all the other boats? That there's no place for 18' bowriders or center consoles on the water?

That because a guy in a 40' sportfish or sport cruiser is ignorant or selfish enough to throw a big wake that I need to buy a 50' boat?

I'm going to buy me a paint ball gun.

rwidman said:

So you're point is that the guy with the biggest boat is entitled to wake all the other boats? That there's no place for 18' bowriders or center consoles on the water?

That because a guy in a 40' sportfish or sport cruiser is ignorant or selfish enough to throw a big wake that I need to buy a 50' boat?

I'm going to buy me a paint ball gun.

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That's actually my quote and your interpretation isn't even close to what it says.

It says you and your crew should have good situational awareness and a squared away boat, prepared for what happens to all of us sooner or later on the water.

NO WHERE does it discuss boat size....

We carry a 12G BLANK starting canon.
It uses black powder shells which are far louder than modern smokeless powder.

When we see a out of control fool running us down , we fire a round to insure that he notices us.

Slows most down to human speeds.

On the AICW , many times a fool will be cursed on VHF for hours as he runs by the slow boats.

Even easier then, to know who is knowledgable and who is not responsible.

Source: The Bangor Daily News (Maine) July 2001



Schooner captain fires gun in PWC incident

A schooner captain fired an antique pistol in an effort to warn off a personal watercraft (PWC) operator during an incident last week that is being investigated by authorities in Maine.

The Maine Marine Patrol and the US Coast Guard have questioned Captain Neal Parker, who is the owner of the 20.4-metre, commercially registered schooner Wendameen based in Rockland, Maine, according to a report in The Bangor Daily News. Ryan Marves, the personal watercraft operator, was also questioned.

According to the newspaper, Parker called the Coast Guard to report the PWC operator after Parker had fired an old gun loaded with a blank cartridge. Parker claims he fired one shot, but Marves reported that three shots were fired.

Parker also said, according to the paper, that he had pointed the gun at the water, while Marves claims it was aimed in his direction. Parker said that the PWC operator was maneuvering erratically at a high rate of speed in the congested waters of Pulpit Harbor on North Haven island, according to the paper. Parker said he fired the gun as a warning signal because he said the PWC was scaring his guests and he was afraid an accident might happen.

Rules of the road?

Parker said he had the right to fire a gun under US Coast Guard navigation Rule 7: "Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt, such risk shall be deemed to exist." Parker added that Rule 37 states that a gun fired at intervals of one minute may be used as a distress signal.

The Marine Patrol indicated the matter may be referred to the district attorney's office or a grand jury for prosecution, said the report in the paper. Parker could be subject to criminal penalties and could also lose his US Coast Guard license, while Marves could be cited for operating at excessive speed or recklessly.

Here's a link to the USCG decision in the matter.

And it's been upheld many times that a gun with blanks or toy gun/paintball gun pointed in your direction can be construed as a "real" threat and you can freely return fire with "real" bullets.....

FF said:

We carry a 12G BLANK starting canon.
It uses black powder shells which are far louder than modern smokeless powder.

When we see a out of control fool running us down , we fire a round to insure that he notices us.

Slows most down to human speeds.

On the AICW , many times a fool will be cursed on VHF for hours as he runs by the slow boats.

Even easier then, to know who is knowledgable and who is not responsible.

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Uh- that's what a horn is for....

most boaters are driving their cars when handling a boat and havent a clue as to the dangers around them

bfloyd4445 said:

most boaters are driving their cars when handling a boat and havent a clue as to the dangers around them

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In both cases.

JD said:

In both cases.

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ksanders said:

Here in Seward Alaska almost every time I leave the harbor I'm going to expose my boat to at the very least 3-5' ocean swells. That is a dream day. Much of the time we're in wind blown 5' or larger waves at say 8 seconds, as measured by the noaa bouys. Thats why we look at a boats wake as a non event.

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If you're in the open ocean facing 5' waves then of course boat wakes are a non event! If I put your 47' vessel in 9' of water on the AICW and a fat sport fisherman flies by you without slowing down, close enough that he could have handed over some Gray Poupon, and you can't very well maneuver so it doesn't clip you right on the beam without running aground, and your sandwich and drink you were enjoying fly onto the deck... And yes you saw him coming, but figured he would slow down, since 98% of those guys keep the hammer down right until the last second but do slow down (and they expect you to do the same to expedite the pass)... But he doesn't slow down even though you did and now you've lost some steerage...

You'd be PISSED my friend, so don't tell us how good we have it on the East Coast. We love to get out in the ocean when it is nice, but a lot of the AICW is a ditch and we operate with A-Holes in close quarters a lot of the time to get to the good places.

My solution is to let The Admiral call the guy an SOB on VHF-16 so everyone can hear, get chastised by the Coast Guard for chatter on 16, get a new drink from the fridge and let my dog eat the sandwich. And if I'm lucky, catch up to see him run aground an hour later since he didn't want to slow down...

Egregious said:

If you're in the open ocean facing 5' waves then of course boat wakes are a non event! If I put your 47' vessel in 9' of water on the AICW and a fat sport fisherman flies by you without slowing down, close enough that he could have handed over some Gray Poupon, and you can't very well maneuver so it doesn't clip you right on the beam without running aground, and your sandwich and drink you were enjoying fly onto the deck... And yes you saw him coming, but figured he would slow down, since 98% of those guys keep the hammer down right until the last second but do slow down (and they expect you to do the same to expedite the pass)... But he doesn't slow down even though you did and now you've lost some steerage...

You'd be PISSED my friend, so don't tell us how good we have it on the East Coast. We love to get out in the ocean when it is nice, but a lot of the AICW is a ditch and we operate with A-Holes in close quarters a lot of the time to get to the good places.

My solution is to let The Admiral call the guy an SOB on VHF-16 so everyone can hear, get chastised by the Coast Guard for chatter on 16, get a new drink from the fridge and let my dog eat the sandwich. And if I'm lucky, catch up to see him run aground an hour later since he didn't want to slow down...

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Thats ther best response I've heard!

I am laughing my butt off. Well put!

ksanders said:

Thats ther best response I've heard!

I am laughing my butt off. Well put!

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X2 for Egregious. Love the grey poupon comment. EXACTLY.

Egregious said:

My solution is to let The Admiral call the guy an SOB on VHF-16 so everyone can hear, get chastised by the Coast Guard for chatter on 16, get a new drink from the fridge and let my dog eat the sandwich. And if I'm lucky, catch up to see him run aground an hour later since he didn't want to slow down...

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______________________________

Good plan, life is too short to stroke out over a bad pass. Better to let your wife do it !!

Larry B

Edelweiss said:

______________________________

Good plan, life is too short to stroke out over a bad pass. Better to let your wife do it !!

Larry B

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Ha! You don't know my wife! One time she yelled at a guy using only her voice -- didn't need the VHF. And what she yelled was so astoundingly profane and yet creative that the guy turned around to see what kind of person would say such a thing to another boater.

But seriously, this doesn't happen too often. More often a nice slow pass takes place, and mostly with no radio contact required except when I get thanked for slowing to idle to make it easy for the passer.

I'm glad y'all see the humor in what I said before. Sometimes we call a boat "Rodney Dangerfield" when we spot them coming up from behind since they remind us of of his boat in "Caddyshack" when he causes mayhem driving a large yacht. You remember, "Hey, you scratched my anchor!"

Yep, I think Egregyious gave a pretty good picture.

For anyone that has not boated in the ICW, it is difficult to imagine a 1100 mile stretch of water with many narrow channels. While it crosses or runs along some wide stretches of water there are many that go for miles with 50 to 100 yard wide dredged channels. Many of the dredged channels are in wide bodies of water, but go outside the markers if you want big trouble. Some places outside the channel are 3' or less.

We are one of the fastest cruising boats that regularly cruise long distances on the ICW. Therefore, we do a lot of passing. We will usually call on the radio for a slow pass. That is usually answered and complied with. We will slow, pass, and pick up speed again. In the spring and fall migration that can happen 50 times a day. When at a popular stopping place, most of the boats will leave within an hour or so of each other. So, sometime in late morning we will usually have most of our passing done.

If they won't answer the radio, pull over a little, and slow down we will slow to a little over their speed as we start getting up beside them. We have air horns, and will use them. If now response we will pick up enough speed to pass them. If it is wide enough, we will swing wide and get by them. That does not happen much.

We have had some stupid situations arise. On one trip South coming out of Adams Creek canal, We came up on the stern of about a 39' tug style that would not answer our calls. They were making about 11 knots. They were closed in the pilot house, and did not hear our horns. We picked up speed to get around. We spent a few days in Morehead City. Later we passed them again below Georgetown as we were in a narrow dredged cut. Same lack of response. I think the name on the boat was Miss Dolly or something similar. Later that day they pulled in behind us on the Mega Dock at Charleston. They were not happy. They walked by the boat, and I told them of the failed attempts to contract them. They cut loose about my radio not working, I didn't call, I must have had it on high power and the signal went over, they would have heard air horns. I told them if they heard an apology from me I was taking it back. It would be a good idea if they left after I did in the morning.

I have had others look at me, and I actually motioned for them to slow. They didn't. I try to give a courteous pass, but if it doesn't work, I will not cruise a 25 knot boat at 7 knots because they don't cooperate in a good pass.

As I tell Lou, we give a courteous pass if for no other reason the one you pass may be your slip mate that night.

Moonstruck said:

... They cut loose about my radio not working, I didn't call, I must have had it on high power and the signal went over, ...

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I don't get it. How is it that having one's radio on high power reduce a VHF radio's short-range communication? Are you kidding? Do believe having one's radio on low power reduces range, however.

Do believe having one's radio on low power reduces range, however. __________________

One big hassle is the ditch runners will frequently have a huge antenna that is laid down to pass under some bridges.

Use low power on a laid flat antenna and the range is really minor.

Our boat is low (under 10ft) so we use a sailboat mast head style SS antenna with a coil on the bottom.

This does work OK at low power to talk to bridges and locks.

Not all that bad at modest distances as it is always vertical.

Sometimes a hand held is the easiest cure for a huge laid down antenna.

FF

markpierce said:

I don't get it. How is it that having one's radio on high power reduce a VHF radio's short-range communication? Are you kidding?

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Many people believe that a radio signal at high power somehow passes over their boat at close range. It's some of the misinformation perpetuated on boating forums. I suppose they are thinking (if they are thinking at all) of trying to make the water from a hose go further by pointing the hose higher.

It is possible to overload a receiver with a very strong signal at very close range, but I'm talking about a very few feet, not the distance moving boats would normally be from each other.

A larger, faster boat did throw me a severe wake once northbound on the ICW in Hilton Head, SC. Later that day, we saw the boat and a PWC "playing around" just south of Beaufort, SC.

The entire waterfront in Beaufort is a posted no wake zone and when this guy and his PWC finished playing and headed past Beaufort on "semi-plane", a marina operator called him on the radio and gave him hell about his wake.

Thinking back to the wake he threw me, I joined in and stirred the pot.

Later, I tried to find the owner's name on the Internet, but it wasn't on the documented boat website so it must have been a state registered boat even though it was 40' long or more.

rwidman said:

Many people believe that a radio signal at high power somehow passes over their boat at close range. It's some of the misinformation perpetuated on boating forums..

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And not just boating forums. Were told this almost immediately after buying our boat in 1998. We have always kept our radio on high power (other than the channels that automatically select low power when they are selected). We have never had a problem being heard even by boats that were cruising within a couple of boat lengths of the 24 foot antenna that's connected to our lower radio or when communicating with a boater already on a dock as we moved in to raft to him. Our non-issue with using high power at all times has caused me to wonder from time to time about what we'd heard about high power signals "skipping over" close-by boats. We have never experienced this and in the end I figured it simply isn't true.

That is the only complaint that was ever voiced about my radio not working. We passed many other boats on the same days, and it worked for them high or low power. My guess is they were cruising on a working channel, and did not select dual watch. Whatever it was, that tirade was not called for. I was just trying to find out why our communication did not work.

Moonstruck said:

That is the only complaint that was ever voiced about my radio not working. We passed many other boats on the same days, and it worked for them high or low power. My guess is they were cruising on a working channel, and did not select dual watch. Whatever it was, that tirade was not called for. I was just trying to find out why our communication did not work.

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Sometimes folks at my marina set out on a cruise and somebody will select a channel to communicate on, usually 68 or 69. I don't bother to suggest contacting on 16 and then switching, I figure they should know that but I'm not going to upset the cart. If I hail them on 16 and don't get an answer, I switch to whatever they selected.

I keep my VHF on scan unless a pair of Bubbas decide to spend 20 minutes on one of the scanned channels talking about fishing or where the're going tonight. Then I just switch to 16 until we're out of range or they run out of things to talk about.

And then there was the time when someone, obviously docked at the City Marina, was using the VHF to communicate back and forth with passengers who were touring the city (on land) and using a handheld VHF.

Moonstruck said:

Yep, I think Egregyious gave a pretty good picture.

We have had some stupid situations arise. On one trip South coming out of Adams Creek canal, We came up on the stern of about a 39' tug style that would not answer our calls. They were making about 11 knots.

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And here is an example of someone who makes their own life miserable because they don't understand the Slow Pass. Somewhere north of Charleston we were behind a large sailboat. I was making 8 knots and he was making maybe 7.7 knots and I slowly caught up. I attempted over and over to make radio contact but never received an answer. Finally I gave two blasts on the horn and began to pass on his port side, although slowly. I swear he sped up! I had already committed to pass and it was a nice wide area so I thought I would just keep going. Well, I had to pour on all the steam I had to get around...

Just a little while later a 47' Coast Guard lifeboat came along. He tried the same as me to make radio contact. After no contact could be made he steamed around, and as you might know, these boats throw a HUGE wake going anything more than 8 knots, and since the sailboat wouldn't slow down he passed at maybe 10-11 knots and rocked the crap out of the sailboat. Well, he finally broke radio silence and actually yelled at the Coast Guard saying "that was the rudest pass we've had in a week!"

When he came up behind me I slowed to idle and he passed with barely a bump.

markpierce said:

I don't get it. How is it that having one's radio on high power reduce a VHF radio's short-range communication? Are you kidding? Do believe having one's radio on low power reduces range, however.

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You are right, it doesn't happen. Wives tales!!

People are confusing an atmospheric phenomenon called "skip" or "Skywave", which occurs in low frequency radio signals. At low frequencies, there may be times when two stations 10 miles apart can't talk to each other, yet these same two stations can talk to other stations that are a thousand miles away. This is caused by atmospheric conditions when the ionosphere reflects low frequency radio waves back toward Earth at a great distance from their source. Since it is not limited by the earths curvature the signal may be strongly heard hundreds and maybe even thousands of miles away. Yet someone 10 or 20 miles away from the transmitter hears nothing but static. This is the basis of low power AM amateur (Ham) communications. It mostly occurs in the shortwave frequency bands.

Two "properly functioning" VHF marine radios, on the same frequency, volume level turned up, and within close proximity, line of sight of each other, will hear each other at either low or high power settings.

p.s. If you want to experience "Skip" conditions, turn your CB radio on, open the squelch up and at certain times of the day, earlier morning or in the evening, you will hear other stations talking many many miles away. Here in the PNW we routinely hear CB'ers from Texas and Alabama chatting and their signals fading in and out as the skip conditions change.

Larry B

So, refresh my memory. When and why should one select low or high power on one's VHF.

dwhatty said:

So, refresh my memory. When and why should one select low or high power on one's VHF.

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There are some marine channels that have low power restrictions. If you have a newer VHF marine radio, it should automatically select the low power setting on these channels.

On channel 16, I usually use high power as I'm hailing vessels or the Coast Guard who are at an unknown or considerable distance away and you want to be heard first time.

When traveling with another boat, we will often use our handhelds on low power to talk back and forth at short ranges. The portable antennae closer to the water or inside the cabin limits the propagation range even further.

When communicating with another boat, a Harbor Master, bridge tender, marina, repair yard, at close range line of sight of about one mile or less, use low power setting. Lower transmitter power will reduce the propagation distances, allowing more users to use the channel without interfering with each other. With the advent of cellular phones, it's probably less of a big deal. But the idea of the high and low power setting is about being a good boater and sharing a limited resource.

Larry B.