Well this sucks!

RickB said:

Read carefully ... if you had killed a "crewmember"

Click to expand...

A lot more "If" than fact in your rhetoric. He took action and his boat is safe. He didn't head out to sea, he moved his boat out to anchorage and stood watch.

Daddyo

The Forum replies speak for themselves, your thread has gone "Holywood!" BTW, the purpose of an online Forum is to create discussion and debate, that you have ably done. Congratulations

RickB - You ever been in Daddyo's position?

I have, twice in New England during many years past. Below is copy of my assertive to him pre storm post (#4 Post) on this thread. As far as I'm concerned Daddyo rode out the "Sandy" mega storm aboard his boat in textbook perfect fashion. I'd have been proud to have been aboard his vessel with him as Captain. There is no better one can do than to be prepared, prepared, prepared and ready to act upon whatever may become necessary - exactly as what Daddyo fully accomplished. Many died or were severely injured on land during this storm. Daddyo and crew survived with nary a scratch, and well saved their current home (the boat) for continued live-aboard use.

Daddyo, fear not and good luck!

I recommend to stay alert and assertive/assistive in actions before and during a big storm; remain in the lee much as possible. Big item is to notice who/what may be up wind form you that might break loose to cause mid-storm havoc. Mid 60’s we survived a hurricane by carefully anchoring in Dering Harbor with a convertible / raised deck / FB 38’ sport fisher hung on a big ol’ Danforth. Plenty of scope let out. Through midpoint of night we had engine running for forward push assistance so gusts would not break anchor loose and start it into a drag (altering wind velocity throughout the storm - 95 + mph at its top speed, right around midnight). I believe in Danforth’s dual fluke design... Carry four (4) sizes of Danforth design on our Tolly today. 35 lb for general anchor out. 65 lb for a big blow. 45 lb if for any reason an intermediate sized spare becomes needed. Good sized flukes but very light weight aluminum model for a stern anchor when desired/required in good weather conditions. Some think me crazy/paranoid for carrying so many good anchors aboard. Could say: “This ain’t my first day on the water”; I call it being VERY prepared and therefore safe for ANY needs that may suddenly prevail. Also, I carry rode aboard to handle all anchoring requirements.

Get it on Daddyo, weather dat storm!

Bottom line is that lives were put at risk to save a boat, not another life but a boat. No matter how I try to understand it, i just can't. I am very surprised at the number of people here that think that it was a good idea and something to be praised.

If the storm came our way, we wouldn't even stay in our home let alone our boat. We would leave town. My wife would insist on it and I would easily agree. Isn't that what most of you would do? That is what my wife's aunt in Brigantine, NJ did. Didn't risk it and came out unscathed.

mahal said:

Bottom line is that lives were put at risk to save a boat, not another life but a boat.

Click to expand...

People put their lives at risk every day to protect their property. It's a basic human right and a decision each boat owner can make.

I understand that you would not feel comfortable doing that, but that does not mean he was wrong. He made a different decision than you would have.

For the record, I probably would have left mine at the slip as well, but that's me. It doesn't mean I can't respect the nerve it takes to anchor out in a hurricane.

I spent 23 years in the Navy and was at sea MANY times when I would've personally rather been safely ashore.

...Mahal. All people in that boat decided on their own self juddgement to stay there. Nobody stood at gun point.

By the way, do you have a boat?

rwidman said:

OK, let's put some logic into play here:

There was a severe storm. Daddyo and his family stayed aboard his boat and lived while several people on land were killed by the storm.

From these facts, we can deduce that during a severe storm, the safest place to be is on a boat.

Right?

Click to expand...

It obviously was for Daddyo and his family in this situation. But applying what happened to one family in a specific instance to what will happen to everyone in all situations is pretty silly, I think.

Portuguese said:

...Mahal. All people in that boat decided on their own self juddgement to stay there. Nobody stood at gun point.

By the way, do you have a boat?

Click to expand...

Yes I do. Did you not read the part where I said that I would not stay in my home nor my boat if a storm was coming our way? I have a very well maintained (professionally) Grand Banks and I will never put my wife and kids safety on the line for it not even for a Flemming.

By the way, did you speak to Daddyo's wife and kids to know that they "decided on their own self judgement to stay"?

mahal said:

Bottom line is that lives were put at risk to save a boat, not another life but a boat. No matter how I try to understand it, i just can't. I am very surprised at the number of people here that think that it was a good idea and something to be praised.

If the storm came our way, we wouldn't even stay in our home let alone our boat. We would leave town. My wife would insist on it and I would easily agree. Isn't that what most of you would do? That is what my wife's aunt in Brigantine, NJ did. Didn't risk it and came out unscathed.

Click to expand...

Your post is irrelevant to the actual situation because you're not Daddyo, you have totally different limitations, you have totally different priorities, you have a totally different skill set, and so on. Your assessment of risk has no relevance to Daddyo's assessment of risk. What you would do in this case has no bearing whatsoever on what anyone else would do.

...I rest my case here...

Daddy thank you very much for sharing your experiences and your knowledge. I am looking forward to ear more from you

RickB said:

Closer to the facts or possible (all too often probable) scenario is what might happen to the trusting passenger in a small aircraft who thinks his pilot has the judgement and skill to safely fly under a bridge.

Just because the outcome was not a disaster does not make the act safe, sensible or even rational.

Click to expand...

I drove home last night in a pouring rain. It was 1:00 am. Visibility was horrible. A semi came up behind me in the other lane when I was about to change lanes. I saw it and so didn't change lanes.

If I had changed lanes he would have slammed into me. Police and and an ambulance and a fire truck would have had to come out in the miserable conditions. Someone might have plowed into them as they were parked near my wrecked vehicle trying to help me or they could have skidded off the road in their hurry to reach me. So my changing lanes could have put them at risk.

Should I have stayed at work and not driven home because it was dark and raining and there was a risk of my having an accident which would have required the aid services to come out which in turn would have put THEM at risk?

This whole argument that someone did something risky that MIGHT have not worked out so they shouldn't have done it is ridiculous. By that way of thinking everyone should stay home and cower under their beds 24/7/365.

To all that said that they would have done the same as Daddyo, would you really do the same as he did meaning taking wife and kids along or just go alone and save the boat?

Marin

Normal Seattle weather is rain much of the time with roads, lights and vehicles so designed - last night's rain was hardly a once every 100 years event in Seattle. If you do elect to drive during the next forecast 100 year Seattle storm event, please post your intentions in advance, providing the opportunity for us to comment as the story unfolds. This will likley be a 30" snowfall followed by 2 days of freezing rain - wear your crampons.

People told my wife and I that we shouldn't sea kayak for two months on BC's north coast during the winter. This was before satellite phones, GPS, and all we had was a deck compass, charts, and a hand held line of sight marine radio (small comfort when we sometimes didn't see a boat for a week at a time).

They wouldn't have gone, we did, and so have amazing experiences to remember and a deeper understanding of this coast, and ourselves.

Forums are weird in that people say things online they never would have the guts to say to your face.

Enjoy your day Daddyo!

In my business I am forever talking/ teaching about dealing with Risk, how to mitigate it and/or how to have a plan in the event that things go wrong. I believe Daddyo would have got the highest recognition from my leaders.

Elwin

Sent from my iPhone using Trawler

Murray & Elwin

That's what I was talking about! Dreams and risk assessment
People said that I should not build such a “huge” boat, which was way out of my reach. But I dream with her every night and I calculated the over pull I had to do on my budget. Additionally, I measured up my value in my line of work.
Everything is going fine
Flickr: Rainha Jannota's Photostream

sunchaser said:

If you do elect to drive during the next forecast 100 year Seattle storm event, please post your intentions in advance, providing the opportunity for us to comment as the story unfolds. This will likley be a 30" snowfall followed by 2 days of freezing rain - wear your crampons.

Click to expand...

I go moose hunting in BC in October sometimes. Deep snow on old logging roads to get to the horse camp. Ice, rain, creek crossings, deep mud. I bought a Range Rover specifically to deal with this. I'm not worried about what might happen in Seattle. The only risk here is the people who don't know how to drive in snow. After the first day it's great. Everybody who's going to go in the ditch is now there and everybody else is cowering at home. It's easier to drive here with a foot or two of snow and ice on the roads than it is when it's dry. As long as you can survive the bozos on the first day.

Blue Heron said:

Psneeld, that is a great story. Thanks for sharing. How many fenders and lines did you you use? Would fender boards helped or hurt in your situation?

Click to expand...

Used fender boards and they worked as designed (2x4s tied to fenders).

As I posted...I chose a location well protected from wind....I used 2 bow lines and one was not needed, 2 springs as normal and a stern line....all 2 year old 1/2 inch 3 strand...with 1 inch clear vinyl chafe protection...but as i said the winds and seas never amounted to much as I chose a hole protected by 50-75 foot tall trees and no fetch....only when the eye passed right over us and the wind shifted to straight up the river did the wind seem more than a summer squall.

I did try and set an anchor out abeam and it caught enough to let me use my windlass with a snatch block to claw my way off the bulkhead in moderating winds and dropping tides to shift one fender board setup as the main one did break at the height of the storm but the pieces were so tightly wedged that they helped until the tide was dropping.

The only thing was rising water and I escaped by inches like everyone else...the difference is I could have walked off my boat via dock steps into thigh/knee deep water and waded 50 feet to dry land and safety.

We live every day managing risk factors while accomplishing low level, tree-top height flights in Learjets so your flights won't. There will be times when we put ourselves in a position of risk so others won't have to experience the risk or suffer a loss because of our lack of preparation.

It takes folks with commitment and the right skills set to accomplish what needs to be done. Know the risks, effectively manage them with realistic forward looking plans and standard procedures and monitor the effectiveness of those procedures with measurable milestones and standards.

My hat's off to Daddyo for all of the above. Thanks for posting and your follow up.

There will always be nay-sayers. Some folks live their whole lives in this mode.

FlyWright said:

We live every day managing risk factors ...

Click to expand...

That is the best one yet guys ... he wasn't doing quality assurance testing of the holding ground for the CG in order to save the lives of ferry passengers, he left a safe haven in a toy boat and dropped the hook in the path of the storm, got lucky and didn't kill himself or his "crew" in the process. Period, the entire story. It is one of the most amateurish stunts possible and is on the list of Darwin Awards.

If he was sitting in a hotel in Kansas the outcome would have been the same. He was nothing more than a helpless passenger as the storm rode over and nothing he did altered the outcome one way or the other. If he thinks he could have walked ashore as the boat foundered he is an even bigger fool.

The only thing that amazed me more than his pulling this stupid stunt is that there are so many here who seem to honestly believe it was not just a good idea but was a demonstration of "seamanship." Good God, and I thought the tallships apologists were ignorant of weather and the ocean! Sorry to piss on your parade but some of what I have read here is simply incredible.

RickB said:

The only thing that amazed me more than his pulling this stupid stunt is that there are so many here who seem to honestly believe it was not just a good idea but was a demonstration of "seamanship."

Click to expand...

Again... I'm new here, but are you the guy we come to to get our opinions approved? I missed that sign on the way in.

I respect your position, and don't feel compelled to call you names because of the one you hold.

he's entitled to post an opinion like anyone else...and unless I missed it..he hasn't gone personal yet like some of the "*****'s" on here.

Some take the gondola
some hike up the back side
some rope up and climb the face
some climb the face solo, without ropes or protection
some, for whatever reason, choose to stay at the base
who's to say who's right, or who's wrong
and who has the right to demand others do as they do?

Not getting involved in whether it was right or wrong but I would like to know how 5/16" chain with a breaking strength of 12,000lbs. was "adequate" storm gear for a 60,000lb. boat or did I miiss something ?

Boatpoker

Anchor and rode selection is an interesting art as I'm sure you're aware. The weight of the boat is only part of the equation. Windage plays a part too. On a well matched rode and an anchor for Daddyo's boat, 5/16HT chain or 3/8 BBB would be the normal choice. Of course the swivel or other chain to anchor attachment must stand the test too. As to what kind and size of anchor, ask Eric. For the LI sand, Daddyo's Danforth seemed to work. Those are the grounds the Danforth was intended for upon original design.

sunchaser said:

Boatpoker

Anchor and rode selection is an interesting art as I'm sure you're aware. The weight of the boat is only part of the equation. Windage plays a part too. On a well matched rode and an anchor for Daddyo's boat, 5/16HT chain or 3/8 BBB would be the normal choice. Of course the swivel or other chain to anchor attachment must stand the test too. As to what kind and size of anchor, ask Eric. For the LI sand, Daddyo's Danforth seemed to work. Those are the grounds the Danforth was intended for upon original design.

Click to expand...

The windage of the boat in the avatar appears substantial and I'm not questioning the choice of a Danforth, but with an SWL of only about 1700lbs. the 5/16" seems woefully inadequate. If could direct me to a source showing otherwise I would appreciate it.

boatpoker said:

Not getting involved in whether it was right or wrong but I would like to know how 5/16" chain with a breaking strength of 12,000lbs. was "adequate" storm gear for a 60,000lb. boat or did I miiss something ?

Click to expand...

Anchoring and hanging a boat by the anchor chain is quite a difference...

"adequate" ground tackle has many variables...if the anchor can't withstand 60,000 pounds of pull then having 60,000 pound safe working load would be idiotic...as for safe working loads...gimme a break....get back to reality....why have something only needed maybe once in a boating lifetime when the actual breaking strength is way above what you need. Realizing the difference separates real experience from the rest.

Most boaters laugh at my dock lines yet I just moored through the eye of a cat 1 hurricane with no scratches, no chafe.

Being smarter than your equipment is the second rule of survival...at least in my book...

I obviously did miss something ... I missed the part where someone said anything about a boat hanging by its anchor chain. ... sorry.

boatpoker

5/16 HT has a swl of 3900# and I'd guess the breaking load at 3X that. Google Acco chain to get the particulars. The windage on a DF 48 would be lower than a similar sized PH model.

boatpoker said:

The windage of the boat in the avatar appears substantial and I'm not questioning the choice of a Danforth, but with an SWL of only about 1700lbs. the 5/16" seems woefully inadequate. If could direct me to a source showing otherwise I would appreciate it.

Click to expand...

I think the windage on our boat is actually very low if you look at her from a bow on perspective. For instance at the lower helm the operator is barely taller then the forward most bow section. The flybridge is well transitioned by the forward flybridge over hang. The result is most of the forward wind energy is displaced by the hull form, much as water is. The shape of the forward flybridge extension seems to have a down force impact on the boats behavior. I know that on paper the 5'16" chain is on the light side but I also know from practice in anchoring out in Irene and many, many squalls and the fact that this chain size has been on the boat in her former life in Texas and southern Florida for 30 years that it works. As to what force is applied to the anchoring system in a given wind speed I would be interested to know. I know that the heavier boats and arguably lower windage boats such as mine tend to jerk on the chain much less then lighter boats (object at rest tends to stay at rest). I will replace the chain with 3'8 when the time comes but I do believe as I stated before that upgrading to the larger chain will only afford me an extra level of protection necessary in higher winds. If I am to anchor in higher winds I also feel that the forward glass will need protection or replacement with thicker glass. I would also increase my scope and/or switch to a larger anchor.