HMS Bounty/ Hurricane Sandy

GonzoF1 said:

Especially since it's totally FALSE! The Captain he been the skipper of the Bounty for 20 years.

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if you look at historical records many vessels were ordered out to sea in unfavorable conditions by their owners throughout history.

I have no doubt that the bounty's skipper did everything in his power to save his ship at the cost of his life just as so many other vessels did because of being ordered to sea by their owners in the past. My comment was not one of disrespect for anyone just a statement pointing out whaat traditionally has been done historically.
If i owned the Bounty i certainly would not have ordered her to the bahamas at that time wouyld you? Would any of you put to sea under those conditions? I think not. Two weeks ago i was caught offshore when the bar was closed and know how easy it is for a skipper to mis judge conditions. I'll bet there isnt a one of you that has any real experiance that hasnt at some time or other and close to visiting davy jones. Thats the nature of the sport

" There are old sailors,and there are bold sailors, but there are no old bold sailors"
OK, I know it`s a generalization, and I don`t know how old Daddyo is (does TF have a Courage award?), but it`s broadly true,and totally unoriginal.
BruceK

Bfloyd

"visit day jones" you say? If by chance or unforeseen accident I'd maybe buy that, but to intentionally put your vessel and crew in harms way is no accident.

Has an owner come forth saying " I ordered the Bounty put out to sea?" Even if this were to come to light, the Captain has the final say.

sunchaser said:

Bfloyd

"visit day jones" you say? If by chance or unforeseen accident I'd maybe buy that, but to intentionally put your vessel and crew in harms way is no accident.

Has an owner come forth saying " I ordered the Bounty put out to sea?" Even if this were to come to light, the Captain has the final say.

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I do not believe the Captain had any intention nor is there any indication he had any wish that his ship do anything but reach its destination safely. If he had of he would not have died.

I dont think the Bounty left port without its owner ordering it to do so do you? Has your boat ever left port without its owner demanding it do so?...or any other vessel for that matter

sunchaser said:

Bfloyd

"visit day jones" you say? If by chance or unforeseen accident I'd maybe buy that, but to intentionally put your vessel and crew in harms way is no accident.

Has an owner come forth saying " I ordered the Bounty put out to sea?" Even if this were to come to light, the Captain has the final say.

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The captain does have the final say and in the past many have refused to sail under dangerous conditions with the owner often replaceing them with others willoing to take the risk in order to accomplish the owners goal what ever they may be.

The loss of the Bounty distresses me very much and the hours i have spent mouning her loss made me think of many things. Was a terri8ble terrible incident

Best wishes
B

bfloyd4445 said:

Hummm.....ive been to sea in a rowboat, jetboat <wooldridge Alaskan> with prop and even in a bayliner. Does that mean i should throw away both the clock and the calender?

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Yes Sir, it does!...especially if there's a hurricane brewing, as the unfortunate crew of HMS Bounty discovered. In more than 35 years as a Merchant Marine Master I ran into quite a few owners/managers who tried to bully me into putting to sea when circumstances of weather, or vessel condition dictated otherwise. If you say "no," you may well loose your job. But if you say "yes," you may loose your life.

Captain K said:

Yes Sir, it does!...especially if there's a hurricane brewing, as the unfortunate crew of HMS Bounty discovered. In more than 35 years as a Merchant Marine Master I ran into quite a few owners/managers who tried to bully me into putting to sea when circumstances of weather, or vessel condition dictated otherwise. If you say "no," you may well loose your job. But if you say "yes," you may loose your life.

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Thank you for pointing this out. Us pleasure boaters tend to think of the water as a play ground with little thought to the true power of the sea and whom is really the Master.

a few years back down in southern california a small flat water go fast craft with a super charged blown engine and three people went missing. This is one of those boats with what they call weepers to cool the exhaust which drip water into the bilge with maybe ten inches of freeboard. After a couple of days it was thought they had went down and were presumed dead but on the third day they were found alive anbd well. They had no safety gear no radio and when the engine quit they just drifted untill almost run over by another craft. Talk about lucky. that boat was so low to the water it was almost impossible to see. Heard about thgis on the radio

All to often after carefully weighing the circumstances a captain may decide to put to sea as ordered anyway and then encounter conditions beyond his and his ships ability to overcome with dire consequences as apparently happened in the Bounty's case.

bfloyd4445 said:

I have no doubt that the bounty's skipper did everything in his power to save his ship at the cost of his life just as so many other vessels did because of being ordered to sea by their owners in the past. Would any of you put to sea under those conditions? I think not. Two weeks ago i was caught offshore when the bar was closed and know how easy it is for a skipper to misjudge conditions.

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--------------------------------------
Sometimes we underestimate conditions, in favor of completing a job, making an appointment on time or doing something we really want to accomplish. Why do people go out when there are ice and blizzard conditions? We're all guilty of taking unnecessary chances from time-to-time. Sometimes it catches up to you and it may have dire consequences.

Sandy was 800 miles wide and he was on a slow boat to China trying to skirt it. In 20-20 hindsight, he grossly underestimated the capability of his boat and the effect of the storm. He isn't the first and won't be the last skipper to do so. Unfortunate and preventable.

Larry B,

jwnall said:

Newbie68 wrote:

"I ask again....what possessed then to depart."

It is best expressed by a Greek word. Hubris. Or, "It cannot happen to me." A really good example of that can be found at the following link:

The loss of the Windjammer Schooner, Fantome

John

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Thank you John

That article on the Fantome’s demise sent shivers up my spine. There is no man made product nor human thought or power that can overcome the whims of nature which without conscience employ the laws of physics.


"MONDAY, NOV. 2 A SENSE OF FINALITY

On the fifth day of an intense search, the crew of a Monty 45 helicopter, dispatched from the British frigate HMS Sheffield, spotted debris in the water near eastern Guanaja, off Honduras: eight life vests, two life rafts. Stenciled on them: SV/Fantome.

Now Fantome truly was a ghost ship."


</B>Copyright © 1998 The Miami Herald

jwnall said:

And by the way, since I have not seen a mention of it by anyone else, I'll just put in my two cents and say what a great job the Coast Guard did in rescuing those 14 crew members. Flying choppers and deploying baskets in that sort of weather has to call for skill and dedication that I, for one, applaud about as hard as I can applaud. As they say, "You have to go out. No one says you have to make it back."

John

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Nahhhh....we changed that back in the late 80's early 90's when more Coastie helo crews were dying and the people who they were sent to rescue made it back fine...just more scared than they wanted to be...

The new motto for the air crews is..."You have to go out ...but you have to come back" I firmly believed in and loved the new motto!

Originally Posted by jwnall
And by the way, since I have not seen a mention of it by anyone else, I'll just put in my two cents and say what a great job the Coast Guard did in rescuing those 14 crew members. Flying choppers and deploying baskets in that sort of weather has to call for skill and dedication that I, for one, applaud about as hard as I can applaud. As they say, "You have to go out. No one says you have to make it back."

John [/QUOTE]

psneeld said:

Nahhhh....we changed that back in the late 80's early 90's when more Coastie helo crews were dying and the people who they were sent to rescue made it back fine...just more scared than they wanted to be...

The new motto for the air crews is..."You have to go out ...but you have to come back" I firmly believed in and loved the new motto!

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Bless the rescue crews... Jobs they do are great indeed! New motto is much better, old one had sour ring to it. These rescuers had better come back... of course for their own good and simply because they damn well deserve to... but also and importantly because there is always someone going to need their help again. Talk about a noble profession! Unwavering life saving dedication while risking their own life and limb for others - GEEEEEZZZZZ!

bfloyd4445 said:

I have no doubt that the bounty's skipper did everything in his power to save his ship at the cost of his life

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You may be the last person standing who has no doubt ... it has become increasingly obvious he willingly exposed his ship and crew to their fate.


http://thechronicleherald.ca/novasco...ing-hurricanes
Pay particular attention to the statements made starting at 10:27 on the clip, and again at around 20:50

Art said:

Originally Posted by jwnall
And by the way, since I have not seen a mention of it by anyone else, I'll just put in my two cents and say what a great job the Coast Guard did in rescuing those 14 crew members. Flying choppers and deploying baskets in that sort of weather has to call for skill and dedication that I, for one, applaud about as hard as I can applaud. As they say, "You have to go out. No one says you have to make it back."

John

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Bless the rescue crews... Jobs they do are great indeed! New motto is much better, old one had sour ring to it. These rescuers had better come back... of course for their own good and simply because they damn well deserve to... but also and importantly because there is always someone going to need their help again. Talk about a noble profession! Unwavering life saving dedication while risking their own life and limb for others - GEEEEEZZZZZ! [/QUOTE]

I still carry the picture of the crumpled USCG helo on the mountainside near Humbolt Bay California and the sailboat they went out to rescue sitting idyllically at anchor in the foreground without a scratch.

Keeps you humble and your head screwed on tight when things get dicey.

Adagio made it thru Sandy! Toms River and the Jersey shore took a beating.

Water 5' over my dock. Marina office and Condos first floors flooded.

A few miles East on the Ocean Front much is destroyed!

Our Marina did fairly well, No damage on most boats, One near sinking, it got caught under the dock.

Not sure when power will be restored. Still 7 hundred thousand people without in my area, including us. Getting by on my old Honda 2000.

Thankfully the people I know are okay.

Thinking of moving to Arizona. John and Miri.

Photo on Tuesday at low water. Water crested 4' higher.

John P

Greetings,
Hmmm......the evidence from the captains own mouth barely three months before sinking! It seems THIS effort at getting "quite a ride" was unfortunately Captain Walbridge's swan song. VERY, VERY unfortunate and I mean that in the most respectful way.

Very little in that sordid affair, other than the performance of the USCG SAR teams, is worthy of respect.

RickB said:

You may be the last person standing who has no doubt ... it has become increasingly obvious he willingly exposed his ship and crew to their fate.


http://thechronicleherald.ca/novasco...ing-hurricanes
Pay particular attention to the statements made starting at 10:27 on the clip, and again at around 20:50

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Sounds to me like he was somewhat oblivious (too high headed) to some of the insurmountable perils that sea-storm conditions can actually produce... and he was lucky times before. Underestimating Mother Nature, over estimating your boat's capability, and thinking too high of one’s own prowess equal a recipe for disaster - As We See! There was nothing purposeful to this calamity... simply lack of judgment. Benchmarks such as this help instruct other Captains to make more rational decisions.

Greetings,
In respect for the unnecessary loss of life.

Is there a court case after a rescue to determine if the person being rescued (At the peril of the rescuers.) is an idiot or just bad luck.
You always hear stories about rescues and wonder what the heck the idiot was doing in that situation in the first place.
I hope these people have to pay.

Sd

RickB said:

You may be the last person standing who has no doubt ... it has become increasingly obvious he willingly exposed his ship and crew to their fate.


http://thechronicleherald.ca/novasco...ing-hurricanes
Pay particular attention to the statements made starting at 10:27 on the clip, and again at around 20:50

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Not so. The captain knew exactly what he was doing and had full confidence in his ability to weather any storm.
I guess i am guilty of the same afliction as the Captain. He simply feels comfortable with the sea and liked to push the envelope for personnal satisfaction and this time he pushed it too far and paid for it with his life. God rest his soul
I tend to do this kinda thing but not with hurricanes or typhons, with toonies, river bars, jet boats, etc.

bfloyd4445 said:

Not so. The captain knew exactly what he was doing and had full confidence in his ability to weather any storm.
I guess i am guilty of the same afliction as the Captain. He simply feels comfortable with the sea and liked to push the envelope for personnal satisfaction and this time he pushed it too far and paid for it with his life. God rest his soul
I tend to do this kinda thing but not with hurricanes or typhons, with toonies, river bars, jet boats, etc.

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I counter bfloyd - If that Bounty Captain actually knew "exactly" what he was doing then he knew he was risking not just his life, but also the lives of his crew as well as the well-being of the boat itself. IMHO, no Captain has right to take that much liberty for their self aggrandizement in future years by taking uncalled for and unnecessary risks such as he took. He never should have ventured out into that massive and unpredictable storm. As a Captain he should have known better... Period!

skipperdude said:

Is there a court case after a rescue to determine if the person being rescued (At the peril of the rescuers.) is an idiot or just bad luck.
You always hear stories about rescues and wonder what the heck the idiot was doing in that situation in the first place.
I hope these people have to pay.

Sd

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Not necessarily...most of the time...

Even when the rescuers died...if the SAR situation was enacted in good faith and no extreme negligence there might not even be a hearing if not a commercial vessel and definitely no bill.

Art said:

I counter bfloyd - If that Bounty Captain actually knew "exactly" what he was doing then he knew he was risking not just his life, but also the lives of his crew as well as the well-being of the boat itself. IMHO, no Captain has right to take that much liberty for their self aggrandizement in future years by taking uncalled for and unnecessary risks such as he took. He never should have ventured out into that massive and unpredictable storm. As a Captain he should have known better... Period!

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every decision any captain makes can cost the lives of crew passengers or ship. Thats the nature of the job. On your vessel, if your the catain all your decisions at sea have the potential to be live threatening.
Sorry captain you cannot pass the buck, the buck stops in the Captains lap...period...
and i'm sure, any decision you or the Bounty's captain would make would be what he you thinks is the best course of action under current conditions to take.

Do you not agree?

Consequences of poor sailing decisions - witness the upcoming trial and possible manslaughter charges facing the Italian Captain.

bfloyd4445 said:

every decision any captain makes can cost the lives of crew passengers or ship. Thats the nature of the job. On your vessel, if your the catain all your decisions at sea have the potential to be live threatening.
Sorry captain you cannot pass the buck, the buck stops in the Captains lap...period...
and i'm sure, any decision you or the Bounty's captain would make would be what he you thinks is the best course of action under current conditions to take.

Do you not agree?

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In most cases I would agree... but not in this one. Having listened closely to the Bounty Captain answer questions to an interviewer on a many minute video link (that was provided in a post on this thread) his words seemed to overstep a Captain's true need for total consideration on all persons and items concerned in Bounty situations prior to storm Sandy. And, who in their right mind as Captain, feels the safest measure is to take a 1960 wooden craft, designed in technology mode from centuries past, into open ocean waters wherein a storm the size of Sandy was approaching. I simply believe this Captain was a bit too high on his own worth/capabilities and too low on consideration for others. We all make mistakes and it is the prerogative of a Captain to take his best shot... but consideration for others is of paramount importance because the Captain is responsible for their lives too. I believe the Bounty Captain simply overstepped his bounds!

bfloyd4445 said:

every decision any captain makes can cost the lives of crew passengers or ship. Thats the nature of the job. On your vessel, if your the catain all your decisions at sea have the potential to be live threatening.
Sorry captain you cannot pass the buck, the buck stops in the Captains lap...period...
and i'm sure, any decision you or the Bounty's captain would make would be what he you thinks is the best course of action under current conditions to take.

Do you not agree?

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Are you shi**ing me????

I have been either pilot or captain in command for over 30 years...maybe 1 in 100,000 decisions might have put a pax or crew in danger beyond scratches or being cold and wet for awhile.

I just road out Hurricane Sandy....the eye passed right over my hurricane hole that I was the ONLY ONE IN....the biggest wave I saw was 6 inches and the trees knocked the winds down below 60 for the whole ride. So while making decisions in command is part of the responsibility...making the right ones is the biggest part.

Going to sea and sailing at this storm in the Bounty cannot be seen as a good decision...the results prove it.

psneeld said:

Going to sea and sailing at this storm in the Bounty cannot be seen as a good decision...the results prove it.

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And yet... It WAS the right decision at the time for him, his ship, and his crew. What keeps being overlooked here is that it was a major equipment failure that caused this. He and his ship had been is much larger and more powerful storms. Moreover, he was already beyond the SW edge of the storm when he had the failure.

I am not trying to be argumentative here, but we have to respect his decision because we will all have to make them eventually. Sometime they are right, sometimes not, but the armchair quarterbacking here is not helping anything.

Tom-

GonzoF1 said:

And yet... It WAS the right decision at the time for him, his ship, and his crew. What keeps being overlooked here is that it was a major equipment failure that caused this. He and his ship had been is much larger and more powerful storms. Moreover, he was already beyond the SW edge of the storm when he had the failure.

I am not trying to be argumentative here, but we have to respect his decision because we will all have to make them eventually. Sometime they are right, sometimes not, but the armchair quarterbacking here is not helping anything.

Tom-

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Tom, well said. I guess u said what i have said in diferent words but your words do a better job
I wish i knew more of the Bounty's last moments in order to answer the questions we all have.

That said. This could happen to any mariner, even a rowboat captain as myself. I just pray that it will never happen to another each night.

God bless

bfloyd4445 said:

Tom, well said. I guess u said what i have said in diferent words but your words do a better job
I wish i knew more of the Bounty's last moments in order to answer the questions we all have.

That said. This could happen to any mariner, even a rowboat captain as myself. I just pray that it will never happen to another each night.

God bless

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----------------------------------------

Well. . . . . .with enough evidence and witnesses, I think we will all get what we are looking for eventually. That should at least answer the question once and for all??

Rear Adm. Steven Ratti, USCG, said Friday. An investigating officer will receive evidence and testimony using formal rules and procedures.

The investigation will consider whether any failure of equipment or personnel contributed to the crew member's death. It will also determine if further investigation is needed. The investigation is expected to take several months.

LB