HMS Bounty/ Hurricane Sandy

jwnall said:

Keith wrote:

"They were fine until their generator failed, and the pumps couldn't keep up with the water ingress."

Murphy's Law, First Corollary. "If it can happen, then it will. If it can't, it will anyway."

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From a former crew member of the Bounty:

Marc Castells
5:57pm Oct 29
I don't think what led the Bounty to be there is a mystery. They were very open on their FB page about their decision to put to sea to ride out the storm because it is safer for the boat than being at port. It's obviously not safer for the crew to be at sea, and it's decisions like this that led me and my friend to get off the boat when she stopped for repairs in Bermuda after similar conditions and similar equipment failure, instead of continuing on to Puerto Rico. Luckily they were able to get replacement parts overnighted to Bermuda, because otherwise they would have made the decision to continue on with both bilge pumps broken (probably for the same reason they broke this time), and an empty fire extinguisher on the wall of the engine room, from when one of the crew put out a fire without even bothering to wake anyone or let the helmsman at the time (me) know about it... Sad to be proved right sometimes. RIP Claudene, and good luck Robin. As much as I disagree with him, I think he's a good guy and a survivor.

Karen in Rio Vista said:

Please allow me to ask you a question. I'm glad I found all of you because you can probably answer it.

I live in Rio Vista and love the tall ships that dock at the end of Main Street.

Has this ship, HMS Bounty, ever docked here??

Thank you.

Karen

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I don't believe so. Hawaiian Chieftain and Lady Washington ??? I think are the ones you're thinking of.

Welcome to the forum.

As suspected, schedule seems to have played a part:

"The ship was scheduled to dock at The Pier in St. Petersburg for a public appearance on the weekend of Nov. 10-11. St. Petersburg had served as a winter home for the ship in past years."

captrigney said:

The captains and mates were very well qualified, usually including being academy graduates. From what I have observed they are very dedicated to their profession and as experienced and of as sound of judgement as any of the professional seafarers I have encountered anywhere.

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I could never compete with their smarts but am well versed in common sense, therefore I would have looked for shelter instead of heading towards the storm. I scratch my head on this one!!!!!!!

Elwin

Sent from my iPhone using Trawler

refugio said:

As suspected, schedule seems to have played a part:

"The ship was scheduled to dock at The Pier in St. Petersburg for a public appearance on the weekend of Nov. 10-11. St. Petersburg had served as a winter home for the ship in past years."

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I have no idea if THE PIER in St. Pete was the winter home of the BOUNTY. I do know that I have seen it there. You could look right down on the top of it from the Columbia Restaurant.

She was en-route to take a winter docking in Galveston, Texas due here in mid November. We were looking forward to seeing her in our harbor for a few months. Our own tall ship the "Elissa" is currently in dry dock undergoing repairs sustained during Hurricane Ike. We are saddened to hear of the loss of life from this ordeal, it could have been far worse.

Today at the western end of Carquinez Strait, had to wipe my eyes to make sure I was seeing straight. No, it wasn't HMS Bounty (3-masted fully-rigged ship) but instead a brigantine.

I believe that's the Lady Washington. I chartered her once for a film shoot. She is an exact replica of the original Lady Washington which was a contemporary ship to Capt. Vancouver's Discovery (1790s). In fact I believe the two ships met off the Columbia River at one pont.

Originally built as a single masted vessel the Lady Washington had quite a colorful career, eventually being used in the beaver pelt trade between the PNW and Japan (or China, can't remember which). It was at this point that her owner/captain converted her to a two masted vessel. While she had a lower yard on the mainmast, the captain of the current Lady Washington told me during the film shoot that the original Lady Washington had never carried a sail on that yard. So the current ship doesn't either.

The current vessel travels around the PNW in the company of a smaller steel sailing ship, the Hawaiian Chieftain which is a "representation" of a type of cargo ship, as opposed to being a replica of anything. They go to California during the winter months. In fact it was this that forced the re-engining of the Lady Washington. Her GM diesel did not meet California's emissions requirements and the ship was prohibited from visiting that state. This was a year or two ago. Since a fair amount of the ship's income comes from the California cruises it was decided to re-power the vessel.

Attached is a photo Carey took during our film shoot. I had two cameramen on the ship and one on Carey's lobsterboat which is fast so made a great chase boat for the from-the-water shots. If anyone visits the Boeing plant in Everett and takes the factory tour they will see the video that has this sequence at the start of it.

The ship was doing 12 knots when this shot was taken. The captain told me the fastest the ship has ever gone is 14. The Lady Washington was used in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. She was painted black and was the British ship in the show.

Yup, it must be the Lady Washington. She was on her way to Rio Vista.

Lady Washington | Hawaiian Chieftain | Battles | Adventures | Sailing

Safer at Sea, BullCrap

Possibly it is safer at sea for the boat. Safer for the crew to be on dry land during heavy weather.

That is absurd. "Safer at sea" is a myth that is being used to cover the incompetence of the master of the Bounty.

The USCGC Eagle and the Mystic Whaler were in the same location and still exist today with no damage and no crew were lost. Commercial operators in the area moved their vessels to ports of refuge in Long Island Sound and places like New London and Mystic ... they wanted to protect the vessels and crew rather than experience some imagined glory and make a film of the event. What happened to the Bounty is a crime, the organization that allowed it to happen should be charged with criminal negligence and hopefully will be sued out of existence. Let this be a lesson to all the other carnival ride tallship groups.

That is absurd. "Safer at sea" is a myth ,

GEE,, I hope someone informs the US Navy , they have been running out to sea for decades!!

Sure they have, they tend to raft up, and don't want to risk slamming against their neighbor, they can't risk being trapped in a port by fallen bridges or blocked waterways or other damaged infrastructure. They have the power to make good speed and the range to outdistance a storm if given enough warning.

No one else runs out of port into the face of a storm of historic proportions in an elderly wooden vessel manned by amateur sailors and only capable of running at a few knots.

Few Navy ship captains would change course to cross directly ahead of the path of the eye to head to for the shallow waters of Hatteras and a north wind into the Gulf Stream.

The captain was a fool and an unknowing woman paid for his ignorance and arrogance. Period.

Isn't Lady Washington rigged as a brig vs brigantine?

And by the way, since I have not seen a mention of it by anyone else, I'll just put in my two cents and say what a great job the Coast Guard did in rescuing those 14 crew members. Flying choppers and deploying baskets in that sort of weather has to call for skill and dedication that I, for one, applaud about as hard as I can applaud. As they say, "You have to go out. No one says you have to make it back."

John

John

You are correct about the USCG heroics, too bad though that their lives were put in danger by the Bounty folly.

He who goes to sea should throw away the clock. He who goes to sea in a sailboat should throw away the calendar.

dwhatty said:

Isn't Lady Washington rigged as a brig vs brigantine?

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Brigantine: two masts, square-rigged on the foremast, staysails between the masts and gaff mailsail with square topsails on the mainmast.


Note the staysail between the masts shown in Marin's photo, post 39.

jwnall said:

And by the way, since I have not seen a mention of it by anyone else, I'll just put in my two cents and say what a great job the Coast Guard did in rescuing those 14 crew members. Flying choppers and deploying baskets in that sort of weather has to call for skill and dedication that I, for one, applaud about as hard as I can applaud. As they say, "You have to go out. No one says you have to make it back."

John

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This video was posted on MTOA listserve... showing what those guys go thru...
Rescue Swimmer Saves Family - YouTube

Just wondering.
What ever happened to the old adage of.

"Any port in a storm"

A hurricane is a storm isn't it.

A ship is safer at sea???

I tend to think the older the saying the truer the words.

markpierce said:

Brigantine: two masts, square-rigged on the foremast, staysails between the masts and gaff mailsail with square topsails on the mainmast.


Note the staysail between the masts shown in Marin's photo, post 39.

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While I don't question your definition all the historical accounts I've seen written about the Lady Washington including excerpts from her captains' logs refer to her as a "sloop."

Marin said:

While I don't question your definition all the historical accounts I've seen written about the Lady Washington including excerpts from her captains' logs refer to her as a "sloop."

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Back then a sloop was a vessel with the capabilities below a frigate. It had nothing to do with the sails but with cannons.

skipperdude said:

Just wondering.
What ever happened to the old adage of.

"Any port in a storm"

A hurricane is a storm isn't it.

A ship is safer at sea???

I tend to think the older the saying the truer the words.

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Heading out when the storm is heading in is commonplace for sailboats whose only other option is an insecure anchorage. That isn't the case with the Bounty in this instance, but if she were in Hawaii or Cabo San Lucas, departing for the blue would not have been criticized.

RickB said:

Naval vessels are no longer made of wood. They head for sea when the risk of being at sea is less than the risk of damage from storm surge and dock damage or damage from rafting or anchoring.

The failure that lead to the flooding and loss of propulsion will almost certainly be attributed to the vessel wracking and working in the seas while attempting to run south.

Captains of those things normally get the job because they started out as volunteers on tallships and worked their way up, not because they have superior judgement or seafaring skills. The outcome speaks for itself. The vessel left a safe port for a voyage into the face of an oncoming storm of historic proportions.

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the facts are that the owner had been trying to sell her and throughout history tall ship owners have sent vessels out with mediocre captains in bad conditions hoping them to founder so they can collect insurance. Maybe this is the case here? Why else would the owner have ordered her out under these conditions?

Captain K said:

He who goes to sea should throw away the clock. He who goes to sea in a sailboat should throw away the calendar.

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Hummm.....ive been to sea in a rowboat, jetboat <wooldridge Alaskan> with prop and even in a bayliner. Does that mean i should throw away both the clock and the calender?

bfloyd4445 said:

the facts are that the owner had been trying to sell her and throughout history tall ship owners have sent vessels out with mediocre captains in bad conditions hoping them to founder so they can collect insurance. Maybe this is the case here? Why else would the owner have ordered her out under these conditions?

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That's a pretty outrageous insinuation.

markpierce said:

Back then a sloop was a vessel with the capabilities below a frigate. It had nothing to do with the sails but with cannons.

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Okay, I'll go along with that but the original Lady Washington was a privately owned cargo vessel.

Andy G said:

That's a pretty outrageous insinuation.

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not an insinuation of anything just simply an observation of what has happened historically with tall ships and what could still possibly happen.


Well its a well documented fact that tall ships were often disposed of this way in the past. And im sure if you ask your insurance adjuster he/she will tell you that is ofter the case today as owner seek the easy way out of ownership. I totaled a new truck a few years ago when i turned to miss a deer. The truck was hardly moving at the time and when i turned it went over on its top. I crawler out and stared in disbelief. My truck was on a logging road which appeared to be flat upside down. The adjuster told me he thought it was gonna be whqt he called an insurance job when the owner wrecks his vehicle by dumping it off a cliff or in a river when he got the call but confided in me that after examining my truck it was obvious because of the lack of skid marks it had been flipped while not moving and totaled. he was a dumfounded as i was as to how it could of happened. No way i was strong enough to flip her over on a narrow mountain logging road. One side of the road was a sheer cliff and the other side was straight up. the bottom line is crap happens and what appears to be the case is ofter not the case as determined byt a scientific investagation

Andy G said:

That's a pretty outrageous insinuation.

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Especially since it's totally FALSE! The Captain he been the skipper of the Bounty for 20 years.