Central Heating

FF said:

"If the shore power goes out, why not just start the generator."

Depending on weather the noisemaker intake is low enough in the hull to not be ice blocked, it might work , IF you have the fuel..

IN the NY area (not very cold) I have had 10 inches of ice some winters.

Where is your intake?

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I live in Alaska and keep the boat in salt water.

We get sometimes a couple of inches of ice for short periods of time. Mostly rain that hasn't mixed yet.

While I agree with your previously posted concept that the best heating system does not require electricity, it is just not practical for most recreational boats. Many of the installations look for lack of a better word "jethro". .

The reality is that for most, no almost all of us, a permenantly mounted, functional diesel generator is part of our boat, and is always available if need be.

Fuel is the same issue. My generator burns something around 8-10 gallons of diesel per day if run 24x7. If you're on the boat keeping it warm you could run the generator less than 1/2 that time to avoid having to re-winterize it. Even at 10 GPD I could go a very long time with the fuel onboard. A week or two which is the Maximum you'll see a power outage and then only rarely would be a complete non issue to all but the most unprepared person who is staying on their boat.

We have gone for several weeks with below freezing temps with out AC power, water, sanitation pump out, the marina frozen over, and several inches of snow. The Webasto uses an average 20 amps DC, with a house bank of 600 ah, we can/could make it though the night, and we carry about 600 gallons of diesel. Running the gen several time per day, during that time, I gang charged the batteries, in that each house battery has its own 60+ charger, so by the time we go to bed the batteries are fully charged for the night.

The only AC we used during that time is the micro wave, and TV/entertainment as the Webasto also heats the hot water. We hold 400 gallons of water, and during that time we use the marina facilities so the 45 gallons holding tank lasts. We could go for over a month, with little discomfort. If a person makes it though the first year or two, then they know what to expect and prepare for it. It’s the first year newbies that the boat and/or they are not prepared that get surprised and/or move off the boat. We move off the boat the first couple of years drung the temps dropped below freezing.

So what ever heating system you install make sure parts and service are available in your area, and/or have spare parts on board.

Phil Fill said:

We have gone for several weeks with below freezing temps with out AC power, water, sanitation pump out, the marina frozen over, and several inches of snow. The Webasto uses an average 20 amps DC, with a house bank of 600 ah, we can/could make it though the night, and we carry about 600 gallons of diesel. Running the gen several time per day, during that time, I gang charged the batteries, in that each house battery has its own 60+ charger, so by the time we go to bed the batteries are fully charged for the night.

The only AC we used during that time is the micro wave, and TV/entertainment as the Webasto also heats the hot water. We hold 400 gallons of water, and during that time we use the marina facilities so the 45 gallons holding tank lasts. We could go for over a month, with little discomfort. If a person makes it though the first year or two, then they know what to expect and prepare for it. It’s the first year newbies that the boat and/or they are not prepared that get surprised and/or move off the boat. We move off the boat the first couple of years drung the temps dropped below freezing.

So what ever heating system you install make sure parts and service are available in your area, and/or have spare parts on board.

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Phil, are you sure about the 20 amps @ 24v? That seems awfully high. Our 65,000 btu Kabola uses less than 7.

Delfin said:

Phil, are you sure about the 20 amps @ 24v? That seems awfully high. Our 65,000 btu Kabola uses less than 7.

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No - 12 volts. We only have 12 volts on the boat.

The smaller boat (say under 40 ft) can be heated with one of the Dickinson ranges.

They will run without electric and do a fine job of cooking and baking.

In summers a stove top camping stove can be used for a quick breakfast , tho turning the Dickinson on is easy , its 15 min before it is up to heat.

The Dickinson is about 20,000 BTU or at least 3 , perhaps 4, 1500w electric heaters.

IF the boat will stay liveable at low temperatures , adding electric , that may not always work is fine.

Folks that want to contemplate a live aboard in real winter might contemplate a co generation setup.

The heating water could come from a furnace OR from the noisemaker OR both..

With keel cooling it would only be a couple of valves to throw .

A number of mfg sell fans that will circulate heat , powered from sitting on a hot surface .

Dickinson stoves can be purchased or retrofit with a water coil heater as well. I don't have one yet, but it is on the list...

"Dickinson stoves can be purchased or retrofit with a water coil heater as well."

The problem is older Dickinson use copper for the coils 1 or 2 or 7 turns .

The 1 or 2 were for heating domestic hot water in a usually overhead tank.

The 7 turn was installed in the Antartic to use for hydronic heat.

With copper the entire system must be operating for the heater to function.

For a while they use a SS coil which could operate sans water.

No idea what is installed today.

On out 90/90 we were able to install hydronic heat by carefully running of all the piping with a slope and using sweeps , not elbows at any turns.

The 7 turn coil heats 8 ft in the engine space and 16 ft of 3/4 baseboard heat in a fwd cabin. The circ temp is a constant 135F during most any winter weather.

The heater output is manually set , but that's the price of a no electric all gravity heating system.

In a vessel with WT doors and 4 compartment subdivision it was a good solution.

Greatpapabear

It is all about teh quality of the install and materials used, on your lovely vessel especially. A correctly installed Kabola or Hurricane would be my choice. This is based upon my experience in the PNW. Don't go cheap, Wallis, Dickenson or forced air. Stick with a hydronic unit located where Fleming normally places them and probably 5 zones using Real brand HX/fan units. I suggest Fleming owners and installers as your best bet for advice, Contact Tony, he'll give you some good advice too.

Going forced air for many isn't the "cheap" way to go...the engineering on some of the "cheap" products you mentioned is pretty refined....it was the "practical" way to go fo some of us.

Different needs for different folks...

psneeld

I did not mean to imply forced air was cheap. I had an "or" in my sentence which was easy enough to overlook.

In my vessel, forced air would have been almost the same $$ as the Hurricane hydronic system. The Hurricane ITR HXs are pure junk - two of my 5 units having cratered and leaked badly and all the others having a leak prone copper tube to hose connection without "expander" ring- I (and others)have switched to Real HXs.

Two other nice things about hydronic systems, if you are in cooler climates, are:

1. You can route the hose/pipes through the bottom of closets, drawers, storage areas, bilges and other nooks and crannies to provide passive heat where it helps to keep things dry. Not unlike many homes where hydronic heat is utilized.
2. With the diesel boiler off and engine(s) running, engine coolant can be tapped to heat the hydronic system. For WA, BC and Alaska cruising throughout the year (yes, 12/24/7) this really is a nice feature.

sunchaser said:

psneeld

I did not mean to imply forced air was cheap. I had an "or" in my sentence which was easy enough to overlook.

In my vessel, forced air would have been almost the same $$ as the Hurricane hydronic system. The Hurricane ITR HXs are pure junk - two of my 5 units having cratered and leaked badly and all the others having a leak prone copper tube to hose connection without "expander" ring- I (and others)have switched to Real HXs.

Two other nice things about hydronic systems, if you are in cooler climates, are:

1. You can route the hose/pipes through the bottom of closets, drawers, storage areas, bilges and other nooks and crannies to provide passive heat where it helps to keep things dry. Not unlike many homes where hydronic heat is utilized.
2. With the diesel boiler off and engine(s) running, engine coolant can be tapped to heat the hydronic system. For WA, BC and Alaska cruising throughout the year (yes, 12/24/7) this really is a nice feature.

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I agree...I wanted hydronic so bad I could taste it...but for my boat it may have been almost triple the cost...yes if I was staying in cold climes...but I'm heading south each winter now so I only needed part time supplemental heat...

sunchaser said:

psneeld

I did not mean to imply forced air was cheap. I had an "or" in my sentence which was easy enough to overlook.

In my vessel, forced air would have been almost the same $$ as the Hurricane hydronic system. The Hurricane ITR HXs are pure junk - two of my 5 units having cratered and leaked badly and all the others having a leak prone copper tube to hose connection without "expander" ring- I (and others)have switched to Real HXs.

Two other nice things about hydronic systems, if you are in cooler climates, are:

[*]You can route the hose/pipes through the bottom of closets, drawers, storage areas, bilges and other nooks and crannies to provide passive heat where it helps to keep things dry. Not unlike many homes where hydronic heat is utilized.
[*]With the diesel boiler off and engine(s) running, engine coolant can be tapped to heat the hydronic system. For WA, BC and Alaska cruising throughout the year (yes, 12/24/7) this really is a nice feature.

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I chose forced air over hydronic, and paid probably more for the forced air then a hydronic system.

Something a hydronic system can never provide is fresh air. That's something a forced air system provides with ease.

ksanders

I have found with my hydronic system that cracking a door or a window provides more than adequate fresh air. Mind you I have no dogs, cats or teenagers with moldy socks on board.

"Something a hydronic system can never provide is fresh air. That's something a forced air system provides with ease."

It could, but I have not yet seen a setup that does heat outside air instead of internal air.

A boat would need a humidifier if this were attempted , as winter humidity is usually low , and heating the outside air would drive the humidity to unusual levels.

Any wood would get mighty dry!!

Most boats have Dorades or other vents that would provide plenty of internal air as the air heaters usually have a power exhaust that would be dragging air into the boat.

We lease port holes, windows open a little. My wife likes to sleep with some fresh air as she is snug and warm in the electric blanket. Fresh air is not a problem.

Have not fired up the Webasto yet, maybe in another week or two as long as the electric can heat the boat. Electric is cheaper the diesel, but once the temps drop 50amps is not enough ti heat the boat.

but once the temps drop 50amps is not enough ti heat the boat.

Here is how to get 300% to 500% more heat per KW.

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FF said:

"Something a hydronic system can never provide is fresh air. That's something a forced air system provides with ease."

It could, but I have not yet seen a setup that does heat outside air instead of internal air.

A boat would need a humidifier if this were attempted , as winter humidity is usually low , and heating the outside air would drive the humidity to unusual levels. Winter humidity might be low, but humidity inside the boat is actually a real problem, at least in the pacific NW.


Any wood would get mighty dry!!

Most boats have Dorades or other vents that would provide plenty of internal air as the air heaters usually have a power exhaust that would be dragging air into the boat. That might be true of your boat, but few recreational boats have good ventilation. I very rarely see a Dorade on recreational boats.

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Several people have posted that they leave a window or door open to reduce humidity and provide ventilation. Having done that for years I wanted to have a system that doesn't require active participation for humidity control.

Right now I'm on the boat, Its 0 dark 30 am. The temp outside is in the mid 30's, and its been raining off and on all night. The boat is warm, and there is no fog on any of the windows.

I can walk down the dock and tell who is on their boats by the fogged up windows. I can also hear the jet turbine sounds of the Espar and Webasto furnaces from all the way down the dock. Excpet for seeing a light on inside, or seeing movement in the boat, nobody would even know I'm here. No sound, and no fog. It appears that the design worked. After installing five marine diesel furnaces in boats I've owned over the years I finally got it right. Yippee!!!

Ksanders

Some of us plug in at the dock and use the reverse cycle AC to do the same de-humidify thing, if required. That way we have the best of both worlds, hydronic and forced air. When sleeping at the dock, diesel furnace off and electric space heaters on suits us, even at 30 degrees.

BTW, the noisiest diesel heater I've ever heard inside or outside was a forced air unit. Install proficiency has a lot to do with it. Glad you found a unit to suit you, after five tries.

I wanted to have a system that doesn't require active participation for humidity control.

No problem, do not breath , do not cook.