rules of the road

skipperdude · Oct 12, 2012

The book is divided into sections. It is set up so that the answer is given as a teaching method with site and page for the definition. There is rules of the road, Deck general, Navigation and so forth. I don't have it with me now but on Monday.
I will find the question and pose it to the board.

Thanks.
Perhaps we can all get our captains license. Or at the very least know what to expect on a test.

SD

RT Firefly · Oct 12, 2012

Greetings,
The answer is 42.

psneeld · Oct 12, 2012

skipperdude said:
The book is divided into sections. It is set up so that the answer is given as a teaching method with site and page for the definition. There is rules of the road, Deck general, Navigation and so forth. I don't have it with me now but on Monday.
I will find the question and pose it to the board.

Thanks.
Perhaps we can all get our captains license. Or at the very least know what to expect on a test.

SD

Ooooops..meant to say answer 4 not 3....in that post.

Feel free to email me anytime you get into a quandary on a question....they are supposed to trap you by using key words...often two answers you can throw out right away because they contain wording that makes them wrong by definition (like in my examples). The the question usually contains a key word that if you skip over it...the last two answers seem right but go back and pick apart the question for key words like inland, international, down bound, etc..etc.

When answering these rules questions ALWAYS ascertain where the question put YOU...

1. Waters (inland, Intern., Western Rivers, etc)
2. Specifics (narrow channel, TSS, etc)
3. Special circumstances (RAM, CBD, type of vsl pecking order, etc)
4. In sight, not in sight....
and look for the key words that are in the definitions of all above...

Rambler · Oct 12, 2012

You need to know enough about the laws to pass the test, and enough about reality to stay alive. This is true whether you're on a boat, an airplane, in a car, truck, train, walking in the deep woods, or on 3rd street. "Here's what the law says." is great. Applying it to reality varies with every situation.

Art · Oct 12, 2012

Rambler said:
You need to know enough about the laws to pass the test, and enough about reality to stay alive. This is true whether you're on a boat, an airplane, in a car, truck, train, walking in the deep woods, or on 3rd street. "Here's what the law says." is great. Applying it to reality varies with every situation.

Profoundly True!

Giggitoni · Oct 12, 2012

rwidman said:
One more thing - how many folks here display an anchor ball when anchored during the day? It's in the rulebook.

I do! Insurance companies and attorneys scare me...

Marin · Oct 12, 2012

psneeld said:
Answer one CAN"T be right cause the other vessel isn't the stand on vessel (the way the question is worded)

Why? The vessel crossing is coming from my starboard side. Under normal circumstances that would make it the stand-on vessel. Not saying it has to be in this case as I don't know all the nuances in the Colregs. But I don't see anything in the example wording that says otherwise.

I understand the bit about having to stay in the channel in order to navigate which makes the vessel in the channel the stand-on vessel. But does that apply regardless of anything else? If I am in my GB and I need to stay in the channel while going up the Swinomish Slough, for example, and another boat starts crossing in front of me from my starboard side, say coming out in one of the wider spots along the slough, am I the stand-on vessel simply by virtue of needing to be in the channel even though it is no problem for me to slow down or even stop in that situation?

Marin · Oct 12, 2012

Giggitoni said:
I do! Insurance companies and attorneys scare me...

Good point. What do you use for the ball?

skipperdude · Oct 12, 2012

I made one from a Styrofoam ball.
Sprayed it with black spray paint.
It shrank about 1/3 size from the spray.

Sd

RickB · Oct 12, 2012

rwidman said:
One more thing - how many folks here display an anchor ball when anchored during the day? It's in the rulebook.

More to the point, what are the exceptions to that requirement?

The exceptions are equally, if not more, important than the singular interpretation of the rule book. If you don't know the exceptions you don't know the rule book and are just as much a problem as a guy who needs the book to figure out what to do as time is running out.

Giggitoni · Oct 12, 2012

Anchor ball isn't required in a "designated" anchorage. But I use one regardless.

Giggitoni · Oct 12, 2012

Marin said:
Good point. What do you use for the ball?

I use an anchor ball made by Plastimo. Found one at West Marine. It folds for storage. I slip it between a couple of manuals in the aft cabin when not in use.

RickB · Oct 12, 2012

Giggitoni said:
Anchor ball isn't required in a "designated" anchorage.

What kind of anchorage?

Giggitoni · Oct 12, 2012

Don't know what kind of anchorage for sure, Rick. Doesn't matter for me because I have the ball up when the anchor is down regardless of where I happen to be. How do you interpret the rule?

Edit: It appears that a "designated" anchorage and a "special" anchorage are the same. There are few special anchorages along the U.S. coasts....San Francisco Bay being one of them. So I guess I don't need to display a shape when at anchor but I do regardless.

RickB · Oct 12, 2012

It isn't how I interpret a rule, it has everything to do with what you might see in certain places and misinterpret to the point of creating a hazard if you don't know the exception(s) and where they apply.

psneeld · Oct 12, 2012

Giggitoni said:
Don't know what kind of anchorage for sure, Rick. Doesn't matter for me because I have the ball up when the anchor is down regardless of where I happen to be. How do you interpret the rule?

Edit: It appears that a "designated" anchorage and a "special" anchorage are the same. There are few special anchorages along the U.S. coasts....San Francisco Bay being one of them. So I guess I don't need to display a shape when at anchor but I do regardless.

A special anchorage has to be designated by the Secretary of the Dept the USCG is in....there's not all that many...

(g) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length, when at anchor in a special anchorage area designated by the Secretary, shall not be required to exhibit the anchor lights and shapes required by this Rule.

psneeld · Oct 12, 2012

Marin said:
Why?

Rule 9...note the last about crossing vessels...

(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.
(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.

And the grande finale is that the stand on vessel MUST sound the danger/doubt signal when in doubt....

Giggitoni · Oct 12, 2012

psneeld said:
(g) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length, when at anchor in a special anchorage area designated by the Secretary, shall not be required to exhibit the anchor lights and shapes required by this Rule.

I'm less than 20 meters. So I don't need to display a shape or lights in SF Bay, a special anchorage? What are the ramifications if I do display anchor lights and ball?

Marin · Oct 12, 2012

psleeld--- Thanks much for the explanation. Obviously whether or not a crossing vessel is impeding the passage of a vessel in a channel can only be determined by the people on the spot.

markpierce · Oct 12, 2012

Giggitoni said:
I do! Insurance companies and attorneys scare me...

You're the only on I know in central California doing it. I've got the day signal but haven't displayed it yet. But then I've only anchored three times this century and then it was between twilight to daybreak twice where I showed the anchor light.

Ray, where do you display your anchor day signal? (Have a photo?) I'm thinking of the bow staff.

markpierce · Oct 12, 2012

Giggitoni said:
Anchor ball isn't required in a "designated" anchorage. But I use one regardless.

I understand that it is exempt in "special" designated anchorages and that only Richardson Bay is the only one in central California. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Giggitoni · Oct 12, 2012

Title 23, Part 110, Subpart A, 110.126a includes San Francisco Bay. No mention if Richardson Bay only. However, I would include Richardson bay as part of "San Francisco Bay".

I display the ball off the spreader on the stbd side.

rwidman · Oct 12, 2012

Marin said:
.......... If I am in my GB and I need to stay in the channel while going up the Swinomish Slough, for example, and another boat starts crossing in front of me from my starboard side, say coming out in one of the wider spots along the slough, am I the stand-on vessel simply by virtue of needing to be in the channel even though it is no problem for me to slow down or even stop in that situation?

And how does the other boater know that you've decided that you are the "stand on" vessel because you need to stay in the channel? What if he also decides he needs to stay in his channel and that he is the "stand on" vessel? I see a boat wreck in the making.

markpierce · Oct 12, 2012

Giggitoni said:
Title 23, Part 110, Subpart A, 110.126a includes San Francisco Bay. No mention if Richardson Bay only. However, I would include Richardson bay as part of "San Francisco Bay".

I display the ball off the spreader on the stbd side.

I notice Richardson Bay to be the only special (as opposed to merely "designated") anchorage in the San Francisco estuary.

Subpart A—Special Anchorage Areas :: PART 110--ANCHORAGE REGULATIONS :: CHAPTER I--COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY :: Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters :: Code of Federal Regulations :: Regulations :: Law :: Justia

Isn't a forward position of the day signal preferred?

Marin · Oct 12, 2012

rwidman said:
And how does the other boater know that you've decided that you are the "stand on" vessel because you need to stay in the channel? What if he also decides he needs to stay in his channel and that he is the "stand on" vessel? I see a boat wreck in the making.

Exactly. Obviously the Colreg stating that every vessel must do everything in its power to avoid a collision regardless of who's stand-on and who's give-way applies to this and every other situation. But there is a lot of interprative leeway when it comes to the "rules of the road" because of the absence of cut-and-dried rights-of-way. I understand why you can't do this with vessels (as opposed to vehicles). But it can make it very hard to say, "In this situation do this," unless you describe the situation in exacting detail.

markpierce · Oct 12, 2012

When asked these theoretical questions, it's best to think of yourself in command of a large commercial vessel unless otherwise indicated.

rwidman · Oct 12, 2012

Marin said:
Exactly. Obviously the Colreg stating that every vessel must do everything in its power to avoid a collision regardless of who's stand-on and who's give-way applies to this and every other situation. But there is a lot of interprative leeway when it comes to the "rules of the road" because of the absence of cut-and-dried rights-of-way. I understand why you can't do this with vessels (as opposed to vehicles). But it can make it very hard to say, "In this situation do this," unless you describe the situation in exacting detail.

Not only are there no cut-and-dried rights of way on the water, but the colregs give different rights to different sizes and types of vessels where road rules apply pretty much equally to all vehicles from bicycles to 28 wheelers.

psneeld · Oct 12, 2012

You guys just don't seem to get it in it's true simplicity..the crossing vessel in a narrow channel situation should always be sensitive and call on the radio or make a move showing that he's the give way...if he doesn't and the vessel in the channel needs the channel, that vessel should sound the signal when in doubt ...90 percent of the time it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know if the vessel in the channel needs the channel or not and if still clueless... the vessel crossing should assume because as the crossing vessel you obviously don't need the channel and should just plan on going astern of the other vessel in the channel...it's so simple a caveman can do it.

You guys are making it way too hard...it happens to me a lot and it works out when I sound the danger /doubt signal as it should/as in the rules...mostly because people who DON'T know or understand the rules figure the guy laying on his whistle signal must...

Art · Oct 12, 2012

psneeld said:
You guys just don't seem to get it in it's true simplicity..the crossing vessel in a narrow channel situation should always be sensitive and call on the radio or make a move showing that he's the give way...if he doesn't and the vessel in the channel needs the channel, that vessel should sound the signal when in doubt ...90 percent of the time it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know if the vessel in the channel needs the channel or not and if still clueless... the vessel crossing should assume because as the crossing vessel you obviously don't need the channel and should just plan on going astern of the other vessel in the channel...it's so simple a caveman can do it.

You guys are making it way too hard...it happens to me a lot and it works out when I sound the danger /doubt signal as it should/as in the rules...mostly because people who DON'T know or understand the rules figure the guy laying on his whistle signal must...

I agree with you psneeld, and hope what I say encapsulates your teaching/feeling!

Basically... In addition to navel or CG rules: Common sense and common courtesy play a large part in the operator’s safe operation/physical-positioning of any vehicle... water borne vessels most certainly included.

markpierce · Oct 13, 2012

psneeld said:
You guys just don't seem to get it in it's true simplicity..the crossing vessel in a narrow channel situation should always be sensitive and call on the radio or make a move showing that he's the give way...if he doesn't and the vessel in the channel needs the channel, that vessel should sound the signal when in doubt ...

Tell that to the commercial tug boat, which made no signal, leaving its berth to enter the Point Potrero Reach channel and appearing immediately in front of me from portside (causing me to stop). I've got to start pushing the five-short-and-quick-horn-signal button if just to emphasize other captains'/commanders' ineptitude.

rules of the road

Rules of the road

You must stop your vessel since the other vessel is the stand-on.

You must sound one short blast of the whistle and turn to starboard.

You must sound the danger signal

You must stop your engines and you may sound the danger signal.

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