Boat Insurance Experience/Your thoughts

Pau Hana said:

Surveyors- Surveyors should be NAMS (National Association of Marine Surveyors) or SAMS (Society of Accredited Surveyors). These 2 organizations have promulgated standards and practices for surveys that have gained the trust and acceptance of insuring companies and marine lenders. The problems with surveys come when owners want to do the survey on the cheap, and hires a local who claims to have X number of years in the marine business.

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The absolute worst surveyors I have ever hired were SAMS/NAMS "accredited". Their penchant for evaluating a 30 year old boat against the latest ABYC design guide is responsible for driving up insurance rates. When I called SAMS headquarters and complained about one of them, I was advised that individual members have a great amount of leeway. In other words, the organization has zero control over their members or over standardization. The senior staffer on the phone told me his personal boat would never meet the ABYC standard, and shouldn't be expected to. The SAMS/NAMS "trust partnership" is a pathetic joke...and the joke is ultimately on policy owners who get to pay higher rates. I finally found a top notch (and relatively expensive) naval architect, who has credentials as long as your arm...designer and build supervisor for several custom trawlers, tugs, and barges on the Great Lakes. Does design work for Palmer Johnson and a large shipyard. Years of survey experience. Highly respected. The insurance company was initially hesitant to accept him because he wasn't on a SAMS/NAMS/SCAMS list. Fact is he refuses to be associated with either organization and I understand why. SAMS/NAMS membership absolutely does NOT equate to competence...or common sense.

This is an interesting thread. I've been involved with casualy insurance companies for many years as an employee and consumer. As an employee, I designed and wrote computer software in support of all aspects of casualty insurance.

Sailor is right about Lloyds. Members used to be known as names and when they accepted a risk (actually a portion of a risk), they wrote their names on the bottom of the form that was circulated among them describing the risk. This led to the term Underwriting that is used today to describe the process of evaluating and pricing a risk.

It has always amazed me that a given risk can be assessed and priced at such huge differences among different companies. I've even shopped the same risk at the same company on different days and received significant quote differences. Note that these were always for the same coverages and limits. In recent years I've seen less same company/different day variations as the use of software replaces human nature.

I've been with BoatUS for 4 years now and find them to consistantly provide the best coverage for the least amount for the broadest usage area with the fewest restrictions and I'm in the lower Chesapeake Bay area. The BoatUS magazine is icing on the cake.

Gary Have Grady White Gulfstream - looking for a live-aboard trawler

Sailor of Fortune said:

The correct way is "I am insured at Lloyds of London. Think NY stock exchange.

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Yes, good explanation. I stand to be corrected I figured that was understood. Lloyds through Federated but still no haul-out for the purpose of the topic I spoke to.

Elwin

Sent from my iPhone using Trawler

Stay with Markel and check your policy. My policy with them dictates that they pay/reimburse for half the haulout fee for named storms. I've used this several times over the last few years and coordinated yard work if possible.

Premium cost is only half the story. The claims handling reputation of the insurer is far more important. Do they go looking for ways to avoid liability, or is their best advertisement a promptly paid well resolved claim?
On the subject of Lloyd s syndicates, the individuals grouped to provide cover may be based a long distance away with no local "skin in the game". And how do you assess claims attitudes of a group of individuals.
If you have had good experience with a locally based insurer with a good reputation it is probably best staying with them, even if it costs a little more. Multiple covers with the same insurer help with premium, and service. I would insure my boat with my usual insurer except they don`t seem to understand boat insurance, so I have to go with a local specialist marine insurer. BruceK

Its true that Foremost limits their enviromnental liability to $300,000, however this is easily addressed with an umbrella policy. Also because Farmers now owns Foremost the umbrella can add to your home and auto insurance as well. I've never had a claim while with Foremost so I don't know how good they are at paying but so far after more than 20 years with Farmers I have no complaints.

Ocean Breeze NL said:

I'm with Lloyds and for the like of me I can't seem to see where in my policy it requires periodic surveys. ...
The cost of my insurance each year is ~ $1100.

Elwin

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We were only with Lloyd's for two or three years. Then our broker found us a better policy. Our annual yacht policy cost has been about $1,200 a year for the 14 years we've owned the boat.

Fighterpilot; you might try this web page to get a very good overview of boat insurance:
Vessel insurance 101 (Very simplified!!!)

I found it very helpful when I had to renew last May.

I choose Boat US because they would cover me in the Bahamas (Progressive would not) and they are really focused on boat insurance and how to avoid claims. They have a publication "Seaworthy" that's published I believe quarterly that's focused on avoiding damage and tips on avoiding claims. No other insurance company that I know of goes to that extent.
Incedently you don't need to have BoatUS insurance to get the publication, I believe you can read it on line. I read each issue cover to cover.

I believe Boat US may be a little more expensive, but you get what you pay for.

I probably would have considered staying with Markel if they would have upgraded the policy to cover named storms. They wouldn't. Said too old a boat. Now, BoatUS will pay half for haul out in the event of a named storm. That is small consolation since haul outs won't be available unless you pay up front and reserve a space. It is around a $1000 a year here in the panhandle of Florida to do that. If I give them the money and don't get hauled, than BoatUS doesn't help me at all. Choice is stay with Merkel for $788 premium and no named storm coverage, and spend a thousand each year for a haul out agreement, to get come security or spend the $2000 for named storm coverage with another company and take your chances.

Just to add a little more spice to a already spicy subject Lloyds of London is an Excess & Surplus lines market and is not backed in Florida By FIGA like a admitted carrier is ofcourse I only speak of Florida not sure in other states! Oh by the way you all seem very knowledgable on this subject!

Insurance agent for the last 35 years

We cruise out side the US more than in. Usually the maximum time between surveyor's is 3 years as it seems we switch companies for a better policy based on our geographic location. Our policy year is from 10/1 to 10/1. Here's one of last years quotes. They were one of 1 or 2 companies that would insure us. We didn't go with them but I thought I would post the cover page FYI. Look at the exclusions.


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skidgear said:

The absolute worst surveyors I have ever hired were SAMS/NAMS "accredited". Their penchant for evaluating a 30 year old boat against the latest ABYC design guide is responsible for driving up insurance rates.

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OK, Could you quantify that statement?

How does a surveyor that evaluates a 30 year old boat against current ABYC standards drive up insurance costs? I'm having trouble drawing that logical conclusion. Please enlightn me.

I would argue that forcing boaters to upgrade their boats to the latest standards would actually lower rates for all of us, since it lowers the risk of loss, it lowers the price an insurer can sell coverage and still make a profit.

timjet said:

They have a publication "Seaworthy" that's published I believe quarterly that's focused on avoiding damage and tips on avoiding claims. No other insurance company that I know of goes to that extent.
Incedently you don't need to have BoatUS insurance to get the publication, I believe you can read it on line. I read each issue cover to cover.
.

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--------------------------------------------
Since you mentioned it, I got my Seaworthy issue Saturday always full of interesting articles and stories. They publish two different magazines Seaworthy and Boat US Magazine. I like the fact they talk about actual claims they have and explain what caused the loss, with pictures. Learning from others mistakes is always a good way to not repeat a simple error. Love the one where the woman launched her SUV off a pier and became the bow pulpit of an unfortunate boat. No alcohol involved!!

Yes, the magazine is still online and free to all. Go to the URL below and open "This Issues Video" The Title is: "Funniest Boat Launch Ever." It truly is!!!

BoatUS: Seaworthy Magazine July 2012

LB

Insurance

I agree with getting a broker, they not only know what the price should be, they know what coverage you really need.

skidgear said:

The absolute worst surveyors I have ever hired were SAMS/NAMS "accredited". Their penchant for evaluating a 30 year old boat against the latest ABYC design guide is responsible for driving up insurance rates. When I called SAMS headquarters and complained about one of them, I was advised that individual members have a great amount of leeway. In other words, the organization has zero control over their members or over standardization. The senior staffer on the phone told me his personal boat would never meet the ABYC standard, and shouldn't be expected to. The SAMS/NAMS "trust partnership" is a pathetic joke...and the joke is ultimately on policy owners who get to pay higher rates. I finally found a top notch (and relatively expensive) naval architect, who has credentials as long as your arm...designer and build supervisor for several custom trawlers, tugs, and barges on the Great Lakes. Does design work for Palmer Johnson and a large shipyard. Years of survey experience. Highly respected. The insurance company was initially hesitant to accept him because he wasn't on a SAMS/NAMS/SCAMS list. Fact is he refuses to be associated with either organization and I understand why. SAMS/NAMS membership absolutely does NOT equate to competence...or common sense.

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How do NAMS/SAMS drive up insurance rates? The actuarial science that is used to calculate rates gets its data from a number of sources: vessel construction material, vessel age, vessel performance characteristics, fuel type used, loss history of a particular model, owner/operator experience (or lack thereof) and loss history, waters navigated, etc. Any surveyor is reporting on the material condition of a vessel to determine seaworthiness and insurability. I've NEVER had any insuring market require that any vessel be completely brought up to current ABYC standards as a condition of insurability; however, it is common to require reported survey deficiencies be corrected. As a broker, I prefer that the owner be aware of how his boat compares to current standards, as most boat owners are completely unaware that organizations like ABYC and NFPA even exist, and how they relate to their boat.

I agree- naval architects are very well versed in vessel design and construction. However, they are not in the survey business- that's why the insuring companies are not wholly accepting of naval architects as surveyors.

Wataworld said:

Just to add a little more spice to a already spicy subject Lloyds of London is an Excess & Surplus lines market and is not backed in Florida By FIGA like a admitted carrier is ofcourse I only speak of Florida not sure in other states! Oh by the way you all seem very knowledgable on this subject!

Insurance agent for the last 35 years

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Spot on!


I can appreciate the various takes on this topic, as almost all are subjective rather than objective. Take a minute and put yourself in the shoes (so to speak) of the insuring company. Assuming an agreed value policy, they are on the hook to pay the assured the value of the vessel as shown on the dec page for total loss. Having surveys done on a regular basis helps mitigate the risk for both insuring company and assured, and gives the assured a disinterested review of his vessel.

Let's be frank and real- insurance companies do pay claims, and they are also in the business of ensuring claims are not paid for fraudulent, preventable, or excluded occurrences. Bear in mind that the All Risk policy also covers occurrences not in the policy language- if the policy language is silent on a claim issue, coverage is generally afforded to the assured.

I believe that all here will want their policy to pay should a loss occur, and this desire must be offset with the insurance company's desire to ensure that the insured vessel is as low a risk as possible. Surveys help to determine just that.

ksanders said:

OK, Could you quantify that statement?

How does a surveyor that evaluates a 30 year old boat against current ABYC standards drive up insurance costs? I'm having trouble drawing that logical conclusion. Please enlightn me.

I would argue that forcing boaters to upgrade their boats to the latest standards would actually lower rates for all of us, since it lowers the risk of loss, it lowers the price an insurer can sell coverage and still make a profit.

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" Driving up insurance rates" was a poor choice of words on my part. "Insurance costs", or "costs due to insurance" is what I should have said.

If a surveyor makes an arbitrary statement on the survey report that "X" system does not meet ABYC and puts it in the "must fix" category, the owner is either stuck with taking an exception for a perfectly good and safe system, explaining to an often uninformed insurance adjuster that the finding is inappropriate, or upgrading the system. All have associated costs in time, headaches and dollars in the case of the latter. Personal experience (not hearsay) is that the process is incredibly arbitrary in spite of what SAMS/NAMS or others might like you to believe.

Are you for forcing all owners of older cars and houses to upgrade these items to the latest design criteria?

skidgear said:

" Driving up insurance rates" was a poor choice of words on my part. "Insurance costs", or "costs due to insurance" is what I should have said.

If a surveyor makes an arbitrary statement on the survey report that "X" system does not meet ABYC and puts it in the "must fix" category, the owner is either stuck with taking an exception for a perfectly good and safe system, explaining to an often uninformed insurance adjuster that the finding is inappropriate, or upgrading the system. All have associated costs in time, headaches and dollars in the case of the latter. Personal experience (not hearsay) is that the process is incredibly arbitrary in spite of what SAMS/NAMS or others might like you to believe.

Are you for forcing all owners of older cars and houses to upgrade these items to the latest design criteria?

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I understand your point- at the same time, I've never seen a survey that had requirements to make a vessel comply with current ABYC code unless it was a safety/critical item (removing wire nuts from connections is a very common one). Marine insuring companies understand that a 15 year old Grand Banks that was in compliance at time of manufacture does not meet current standards- and they don't debit the quote/policy because of same.

Now, if the survey found extreme situations that warranted extreme action, that is a different story; for example, if a 1985 Ocean Alex is partially sunk in saltwater, and the vessel had to be rewired as a result, I can see the surveyor requiring the vessel meet current compliance standards.

Being in the salvage business...I see the huge disconnect between what surveyors and insurance companies think is important and what actually is.

I just raised maybe my 300th boat yesterday....it sank from neglect. The owner hadn't been on it in 3 months. It was a fairly new, fairly nice Grady White, twin outboard....fully insured and now a total loss probably.

So...what's more insurable...a perfect but neglected boat...or a guy on a boat bailing like crazy? My bet is on the less than perfect boat and the guy bailing like crazy...at least his boat has a chance....

Sorry...surveyors and insurance companies while necessary....are too strict many times in their guidelines and thinking....I could give many examples but I bet most of you could name a dozen off the top of your head.

Pau Hana said:

I understand your point- at the same time, I've never seen a survey that had requirements to make a vessel comply with current ABYC code unless it was a safety/critical item (removing wire nuts from connections is a very common one). Marine insuring companies understand that a 15 year old Grand Banks that was in compliance at time of manufacture does not meet current standards- and they don't debit the quote/policy because of same.

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I've had two instances where perfectly maintained original design systems were listed as not in compliance to ABYC and placed in the must fix section on an insurance survey. Both times it was a SAMS surveyor who made the arbitrary call....minimum acceptable safety equated to current ABYC. So I'm stuck with either firing the surveyor or having a discussion with the insurance company. I chose to raise hell with the insurance company (and SAMS in the first instance). When I finally got to someone in the know at the insurance company, the items were removed from the must do lists. But I had a struggle to make it happen. Not everyone would bother. I would have been upgrading to the tune of about $1500 in the first instance and $1000 in the second...or taking an exception. I respectfully disagree with your assessment that insurance companies don't misapply ABYC upgrade recommendations from uninformed surveyors. They were prepared to do so in these instances.

Update on search for insurance. Freshalaska suggested Susan with IMIS. After two weeks she finally got back to me. It turns out she is crusing the South Pacific on her big Catamaran. Won't spend dollars for Sat. service, had to walk to town to communicate. If that is the way IMIS does business I would not recommend them. The company she finally sent to me is in London and had a lot of exclusions. All things considered I passed.

Just make it easy on yourself and call Pantaneous.

You could also call Anchor Marine in Seattle. Their offices are here and in Alaska but I believe they cover the entire US. Boat Insurance | Marine Insurance | Best Boat Insurance Rates

Marin said:

You could also call Anchor Marine in Seattle. Their offices are here and in Alaska but I believe they cover the entire US. Boat Insurance | Marine Insurance | Best Boat Insurance Rates

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Hey- that's me!

Yes, we do indeed have nationwide coverage- and then some. I've been in touch with fighterpilot and have discussed his needs and concerns...

Daddyo said:

Just make it easy on yourself and call Pantaneous.

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We were turned down by Pantaneous. They said, unless your vessel is valued over 500K (which we are not), you have to be north of 33 degrees during hurricane season.

I have a question...... We use Progressive for our insurance (boat and Car). Our boat (1983) is insured for $300,000 combined single limit with fuel/oil spill liability and a $375.00 deductible. We have an agreed value of $4,000 above our purchase price. This value will not depreciate. We were not required to get a survey. Why aren't more people using companies like Progressive and Geico? What is the advantage of a Boatus policy?

Daddyo--Pantaneous turned me down. One liner, do to underwriting constrants they decline coverage.

Adelaide--In my case Progressive quote qas $600 higher and coverage wasn't as good. Maybe it is because I am in Florida.

Pau Hana said:

Hey- that's me!

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We've been with Anchor Marine since we bought the boat in 1998.

Adelaide said:

I have a question...... We use Progressive for our insurance (boat and Car). Our boat (1983) is insured for $300,000 combined single limit with fuel/oil spill liability and a $375.00 deductible. We have an agreed value of $4,000 above our purchase price. This value will not depreciate. We were not required to get a survey. Why aren't more people using companies like Progressive and Geico? What is the advantage of a Boatus policy?

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I'll answer that one, based on my Safeco boat policy (for my pontoon boat at home)

Your car policy indicates what losses it will cover. Anything else is excluded.

A yacht policy indicates that it will cover all losses, with the only exceptions being listed in the policy.

Adelaide said:

I have a question...... We use Progressive for our insurance (boat and Car). Our boat (1983) is insured for $300,000 combined single limit with fuel/oil spill liability and a $375.00 deductible. We have an agreed value of $4,000 above our purchase price. This value will not depreciate. We were not required to get a survey. Why aren't more people using companies like Progressive and Geico? What is the advantage of a Boatus policy?

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Interesting...USAA farmed out our policy to Progressive back in the 2005 time frame. Shortly after that Progressive got out of the larger, older boat segment, so USAA then put us with Markel....surveys and slightly higher rates. I'll have to check back with Progressive. Thanks.

skidgear said:

Interesting...USAA farmed out our policy to Progressive back in the 2005 time frame. Shortly after that Progressive got out of the larger, older boat segment, so USAA then put us with Markel....surveys and slightly higher rates. I'll have to check back with Progressive. Thanks.

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You can do it online in about 10 minutes.....