Volvo Penta V-6 diesels

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Art:
I went down to my boat today, principally to change the fuel filter on the Starboard engine. I found that since I have been home, 6 whole days, A pigeon has nested in the roof of my shelter and was making one huge pile of crap and feathers on my deck below her entry/exit from the roof nesting area. So it took me all afternoon to cut out all of the 6 mil poly that had holes potentially allowing more pigeons to nest, and to clean up the mess, so the filter will wait till I next get so motivated.
 
hollywood8118 said:
It is too bad that just about every boat I have ever seen built prior to 1990 has had to have it's fuel system " cobbled" up with those horrible aftermarket Racor filters... or do you not have one of those cobbled up boats?
HOLLYWOOD
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Major big difference between installing a newer stand-alone fuel filter and having to have an actual core engine component machined because it takes too long to get the proper part. Or it's become impossible to get the part.

Your analogy between Boeing and marine engines is meaningless because while we are constantly improving our products and designing and making new components, WE'RE doing that, not our customers. Our customers don't see or have to do any of this. They simply get the new component and install it. If they had to design and fabricate new components to keep their airplanes operating (outside of the engines which we have no responsibility for) because we no longer supported them Airbus would have a whole lot of new customers.

We boaters are the equivalent of the customer. If an engine manufacturer or an aftermarket supplier can't supply what's needed in terms of engine core components, I'm going to get rid of the engine. And by the same token, if a manufacturer or aftermarket supplier no longer supports a certain engine I'd be a real dumb-ass to buy a boat with that engine, wouldn't I?

The only reason the Ford Lehman engines are still viable is because of the aftermarket support they have. You can get rings, valves, valve guides, injection pump overhauls, etc, etc, etc from suppliers other than Ford of England who stopped giving a crap about these engines decades ago.

But if our engines fail in a way that is not supported by the aftermarket folks and requires having core components custom machined then the Lehmans are coming out of the boat and going into the dumpster and new engines are going in.

We're not talking about keeping some historical artifact running here, like an Atlas or a Washington where fabricating parts is the only option to keeping these museum pieces running. We're talking about a 1950s era tractor engine that is easily replaced. Custom-machining core components for these things is just dumb as far as I'm concerned.

Volvo marine diesels are excellent powerplants. There seems to be little argument on that and my own limited experience with them in Hawaii bears that out. But from an awful lot of customer testimonials Volvo engines-- at least the older ones-- have spotty manufacturer support and parts can be extremely time consuming and expensive to get. So it's a no-brainier to me to simply not buy a boat with Volvo engines. There are too many good boats out there to have to settle for something that requires you to hire Acme Machining in order to keep it running.
 
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Any upside at all to Volvo that you see?

For an owner NO,

For a boat builder YES.

Volvo was very!!! price competative for an OEM , so some builders would stick them in to save a few bucks.

For us the ability to hand start our offshore designed boats was a plus, so we chose them.

2 hand cranks cranks was cheaper than using a Perkins or similar with a Hyd motor and pump setup.

In retrospect the hyd could have been used for the windlass , and for sheet winches on the accumulator , with the hand pump replacing pressure.

Would have made single handed tacking , full battened main hoisting , and dink recovery easy. Tho not cheap.

In our experience Volvo does not stand behind the warentee at all well.

The engines we used was the MD 3B , and were delivered with faulty valve springs that rusted and snapped in use.
Eventually they replaced the springs with ones dipped in plastic tool dip.

FINE ENGINEERING?? Tool dip???
These were sold thru the parts folks , but replacement of cylinders destroyed by valve heads was not done. We ate the cost , and switched engine mfg.
 
Marin said:
Major big difference between installing a newer stand-alone fuel filter and having to have an actual core engine component machined because it takes too long to get the proper part. Or it's become impossible to get the part.

Your analogy between Boeing and marine engines is meaningless because while we are constantly improving our products and designing and making new components, WE'RE doing that, not our customers. Our customers don't see or have to do any of this. They simply get the new component and install it. If they had to design and fabricate new components to keep their airplanes operating (outside of the engines which we have no responsibility for) because we no longer supported them Airbus would have a whole lot of new customers.

We boaters are the equivalent of the customer. If an engine manufacturer or an aftermarket supplier can't supply what's needed in terms of engine core components, I'm going to get rid of the engine. And by the same token, if a manufacturer or aftermarket supplier no longer supports a certain engine I'd be a real dumb-ass to buy a boat with that engine, wouldn't I?

The only reason the Ford Lehman engines are still viable is because of the aftermarket support they have. You can get rings, valves, valve guides, injection pump overhauls, etc, etc, etc from suppliers other than Ford of England who stopped giving a crap about these engines decades ago.

But if our engines fail in a way that is not supported by the aftermarket folks and requires having core components custom machined then the Lehmans are coming out of the boat and going into the dumpster and new engines are going in.

We're not talking about keeping some historical artifact running here, like an Atlas or a Washington where fabricating parts is the only option to keeping these museum pieces running. We're talking about a 1950s era tractor engine that is easily replaced. Custom-machining core components for these things is just dumb as far as I'm concerned.

Volvo marine diesels are excellent powerplants. There seems to be little argument on that and my own limited experience with them in Hawaii bears that out. But from an awful lot of customer testimonials Volvo engines-- at least the older ones-- have spotty manufacturer support and parts can be extremely time consuming and expensive to get. So it's a no-brainier to me to simply not buy a boat with Volvo engines. There are too many good boats out there to have to settle for something that requires you to hire Acme Machining in order to keep it running.
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Whew....
I guess you really missed the point of all this.
The notion that you MUST wait and search forever And pay too much for accessories that are BOLTED on to ANY engine on Any of our boats doesn't hold true for all of us. What I was trying to point out was that if one is capable ( and I am not sure that you are with your haste to chuck a perfectly good engine in the trash because a bolt on part might not be available ) there are alternatives to stock bolt on parts. The notion that this would make the motor any less viable it frankly very short minded. My comments were never directed to Volvo in particular, it was directed at ALL marine engines.
Keep in mind that most (not all but a large percentage ) of marine engines are truck/industrial engine to start. Even the highly regarded Lugger engines start as tractor or truck blocks and Lugger bolts on all the marine parts to make it a " Marine" engine. Personally I believe it would be a really stupid thing to spend $20,000+ to pitch a motor because the "stock" heat exchanger or oil cooler failed and for one reason or another stock unit wasn't available or cost effective to replace.
HOLLYWOOD
 
hollywood8118 said:
Personally I believe it would be a really stupid thing to spend $20,000+ to pitch a motor because the "stock" heat exchanger or oil cooler failed and for one reason or another stock unit wasn't available or cost effective to replace.
HOLLYWOOD
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I agree with that. The Volvo part our friend has been waiting for for over three months now is a camshaft as well as some other valve train parts. THAT'S the kind of part I'm talking about. Parts that are specific to the engine core that would require exacting and one-off machining to make.

But my main point is that if an engine has a reputation for requiring custom solutions to overcome what should be a routine and timely repair or replacement, I'd be a complete fool to buy a boat with that engine unless I was willing to replace it with an engine with good factory or aftermarket support.
 
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Marin said:
........But my main point is that if an engine has a reputation ...............
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You have to watch those "reputations". They are nothing but opinions and since the popularity of the Intenet, some people feel the need to try to spread their opinions as facts.
 
Have been running my VOLVO engines for 12 years now and I would never buy another boat with VOLVOs. Replacement parts cost triple that of Cummins or Cat, if even availible. VOLVO is infamous for not supporting its older products. The engineering is ingenious though. Changing a raw water impeller is a snap, as the pumps are located on the top of the engine. This year I pulled out my port side MS3 transmission, lapped in the shift cones and was back in business. Really easy to work on. Just hope you don't need parts as none are availible.
 
ancora said:
Have been running my VOLVO engines for 12 years now and I would never buy another boat with VOLVOs. Replacement parts cost triple that of Cummins or Cat, if even availible. VOLVO is infamous for not supporting its older products. The engineering is ingenious though. Changing a raw water impeller is a snap, as the pumps are located on the top of the engine. This year I pulled out my port side MS3 transmission, lapped in the shift cones and was back in business. Really easy to work on. Just hope you don't need parts as none are availible.
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Thanks, ancora... that's a straight shot from a genuine user of Volvo. Will keep it in mind as I further review the 1981 42' Burns Craft sport fisher. Volvo's evidently have 1500 hrs. Owner is ill so we've had difficulty getting together at boat for my full review. Time will tell!
 
rwidman said:
You have to watch those "reputations". They are nothing but opinions
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A guy waiting over three months for a Volvo part is not an opinion, it's a fact. People who found Volvo parts totally unobtainable in places in the southwestern Pacific is not an opinion, it's a fact. The owner of a commercial tuna fleet who is thinking of swapping out all his Volvo prime movers because of the high cost of parts and the costly delays in getting parts is not an opinion, it's a fact.

You get enough of these facts together and you have a reputation. Such seems to be the case with Volvo engines. Therefore, the logical conclusion I have come to is never buy boats with Volvo engines, particularly older boats with older models of Volvo engines.

Doesn't matter if they're good engines. If the support and parts availability is as bad as a very large number of people have experienced it to be there are too many other options to bother putting up with the Volvo Hassle.
 
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If you try, you can find someone who will swear he will never buy a (insert any manufacturer) engine.

Some of these people are pretty smart, some are not.
 
FWIW,

Our Volvo KAD44P (a 260 hp straight six, one of the newer models of the venerable 40 series) just completed its 15th season. We've put almost 5100 hours on it, and it runs like new (probably better, since it's broken in). Engine parts availability has not been a problem - not to say that we've needed a lot of them.
 
For those of us who don't mind buying and installing OEM parts, all manufacturers seem to be expensive. Volvo at least has put their money into improving the breed via outdrives and pods with other diesel suppliers staying away from the drive side. These facts aside, boating in general is expensive whether it be slips, insurance, haulouts etc. Just get out your wallet and enjoy it.
 
The world had a universal and well established "reputation" for being flat for a very long time.

Does a better made, designed and manufactured engine run "sweeter" "smoother" "quieter" "more responsive" and otherwise nicer or better than a bottom of the barrel engine? I recently had the experience of hearing an older turbo Volvo engine run and I was amazed. Seemed to me to be quieter, smoother and more responsive than any diesel I've ever heard. I also spent a day w a new VW Jetta diesel recently and was even more amazed w that. Was this because it was a mighty fine engine or was I just having a great day or positive senior moment or what? Perhaps the features of the engine were to blame like the turbo, possible balancers, combustion chamber design or fuel injection type. Or does the quality of the engine have a greater effect on the "sweetness" of an engine? I suspect it's 90% features and design and 10% "quality". Perhaps 100% features.

Any opinions or facts to offer?
 
I think Hollywood is right on the mark, and Marin also has some good points. If your friend has been waiting 3 months for a camshaft, logic (and the fact that a commercial boat must run to make $$$) would dictate that the owner have the cam ground to his specs and get back to work. I've been around performance engines for most of my life, and when we needed a non-stock lift, duration, or overlap for a specific application, it was as easy as sending the specs to Comp Cams, waiting 72 hours, and receiving the product.

As for the McGuyver aspect- one of our previous boats was a Bayliner 3870 with the CM-655 Mitsu diesel. Great engine, but factory parts were scarce. I had a circ pump go out on me, and Keith at Blue Ridge Diesel in Anacortes quoted me $1500 for a reman pump! That was a bit high for me, so I did a bit of searching, and found a shop that repaired the pump for $115 shipped. This shop specialized in repairing hot rods! Turnaround was 6 days.

Engines aren't rocket science- they're just engines, so it's just a matter of working the problem vice fretting about it.
 
Pau Hana said:
I think Hollywood is right on the mark, and Marin also has some good points. If your friend has been waiting 3 months for a camshaft, logic (and the fact that a commercial boat must run to make $$$) would dictate that the owner have the cam ground to his specs and get back to work. I've been around performance engines for most of my life, and when we needed a non-stock lift, duration, or overlap for a specific application, it was as easy as sending the specs to Comp Cams, waiting 72 hours, and receiving the product.

As for the McGuyver aspect- one of our previous boats was a Bayliner 3870 with the CM-655 Mitsu diesel. Great engine, but factory parts were scarce. I had a circ pump go out on me, and Keith at Blue Ridge Diesel in Anacortes quoted me $1500 for a reman pump! That was a bit high for me, so I did a bit of searching, and found a shop that repaired the pump for $115 shipped. This shop specialized in repairing hot rods! Turnaround was 6 days.

Engines aren't rocket science- they're just engines, so it's just a matter of working the problem vice fretting about it.
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Ahoy - "Marine Insurance Guru" Pau Hana... I like your drift and concur with your "Get Her Done" attitude. :thumb:

So, may I ask, you a guru in marine ins? If so, what up? Cheers, Art :dance:
 
Art said:
Ahoy - "Marine Insurance Guru" Pau Hana... I like your drift and concur with your "Get Her Done" attitude. :thumb:

So, may I ask, you a guru in marine ins? If so, what up? Cheers, Art :dance:
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That I be, Art- I am VP of a large Pacific Northwest based marine only insurance brokerage. All we dabble in is marine and marine related coverages (artisan/contractor, marinas and docks, cargo, commercial and charter, etc).

I feel blessed to be doing what I'm doing, and totally enjoying it!

Pete
 
Pau Hana said:
That I be, Art- I am VP of a large Pacific Northwest based marine only insurance brokerage. All we dabble in is marine and marine related coverages (artisan/contractor, marinas and docks, cargo, commercial and charter, etc).

I feel blessed to be doing what I'm doing, and totally enjoying it!

Pete
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Pete - I take it your Ins Co does not do per-boat ins, correct? - Art
 
Art said:
Pete - I take it your Ins Co does not do per-boat ins, correct? - Art
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No, sir- we have a substantial portfolio of private pleasure policies on the books in addition to the aforementioned commercial risks. We have policies on boats from 1923 to present, with lengths from 10' to 120+', and all hull materials.
 
Pau Hana said:
IIf your friend has been waiting 3 months for a camshaft, logic (and the fact that a commercial boat must run to make $$$) would dictate that the owner have the cam ground to his specs and get back to work.
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The camshaft is broken. It's a Volvo engine, it needs a Volvo camshaft.
 
Marin said:
The camshaft is broken. It's a Volvo engine, it needs a Volvo camshaft.
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Understood. A camshaft is just billet material that has been machined to a certain spec, and has a timing gear. Any cam grinder could take his broken camshaft, use it as a template, and make him a new one- all done within a week.

It'd probably be spendy, but much less expensive than lost revenue sitting pierside for 3 months.
 
Pau Hana said:
It'd probably be spendy, but much less expensive than lost revenue sitting pierside for 3 months.
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At $1500 for a factory part that 3 months later isn't there. Spendy is a relative term at best. The mechanic working on this Volvo sounds more like a parts changer if the custom grind route hasn't been thoroughly exhausted yet.

That motor won't care who ground the cam as long as it's to spec.
 
This isn't a commercial boat we're talking about. It's just a recreational cruiser. My friend already investigated having a new camshaft made and the price was more expensive (in his semi-serious words) than re-engining the boat. We're talking about making new gears and other bits. Actually he says he's close to re-enginining the boat anyway as he's so fed up with Volvo's lack of support, parts scarcity, and over-the-moon prices.
 
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Marin said:
This isn't a commercial boat we're talking about. It's just a recreational cruiser. My friend already investigated having a new camshaft made and the price was more expensive (in his semi-serious words) than re-engining the boat. We're talking about making new gears and other bits. Actually he says he's close to re-enginining the boat anyway as he's so fed up with Volvo's lack of support, parts scarcity, and over-the-moon prices.
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My apologies; I mis-read, and mashed together the longline fleet owner and the recreational vessel owner.

The wildest cam I had ground for a 1987 Buick Turbo Regal was $400. Doing a stock profile cam for the diesel should be less than that. Even factoring in the cost to measure the broken camshaft for get the specs, it shouldn't cost more that $1000.

Ram Engine the #1 source for all your engine needs
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A repower would easily start in the 5 figures.....
 
Well, I'm only repeating what I was told. But apparently making a new Volvo camshaft and gears is not something that can be done with generic components on which the can lobes are ground to some spec. You need a Volvo camshaft which apparently for this particular engine is made out of unobtainum.
 
Marin said:
Well, I'm only repeating what I was told. But apparently making a new Volvo camshaft and gears is not something that can be done with generic components on which the can lobes are ground to some spec. You need a Volvo camshaft which apparently for this particular engine is made out of unobtainum.
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unobtainum

Lol!!!!

I agree, if a manufacturer cannot or will not support a reasonably old product then go with a different manufacturer
 
I agree, if a manufacturer cannot or will not support a reasonably old product then go with a different manufacturer

I agree , parts for my 50 year old DD 6-71 can be had world wide , and there are so many sources there is great competition to provide them that UNOBTANIUM prices never apply.
 
FF said:
I agree, if a manufacturer cannot or will not support a reasonably old product then go with a different manufacturer

I agree , parts for my 50 year old DD 6-71 can be had world wide , and there are so many sources there is great competition to provide them that UNOBTANIUM prices never apply.
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Yes!!

People here seem to fault the old detroits, but when you need a part you can find it, probably anywhere in the world.

That is a well supported engine!
 
Marin said:
Well, I'm only repeating what I was told. ................
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But you're comfortable bashing a manufacturer based on hearsay. :rolleyes:

There's not a product that has ever been made that didn't have at least one disgruntled customer.

Using hearsay as a test, all products from all manufactures are bad.
 
rwidman said:
But you're comfortable bashing a manufacturer based on hearsay. :rolleyes:

.
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Hearsay? The guy who owns the engine with the problem told me in person what the problem is and his experience with Volvo and you consider that hearsay?

There are people--- not many thank goodness-- who believe that no information or experience is valid unless it is experienced by them directly. Which means that advice or information related by others, or worse, is related by someone who heard it from one of the "others," is automatically not be believed and thus has no credibility because it was not experienced in person.

That, to me, is a very blindered and limiting way to live, to dismiss all information unless one has experienced it all himself. That means that marine sanitation advice from Peggie Hall, or wood finishing advice from shipwright Bob Lowe on the Grand Banks forum, or someone who got advice from Peggie or Bob and is passing it on to me, I should dismiss as "hearsay" and not give it any credibility because the advice is not something I learned by doing it myself.

I've known a few people like that-- nothing is to be believed unless one does or experiences it oneself---- and always found them to be extremely boring, uninteresting people with little to nothing of value to offer.
 
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Marin said:
Hearsay? The guy who owns the engine with the problem told me in person what the problem is and his experience with Volvo and you consider that hearsay?
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:ermm: Well, what he told you are the facts is the textbook legal definition of "hearsay". Your testimony of what he said would not be admissible in court. That guy would have to testify in person as to what happened to him. (Certain exceptions might apply :), etc.).
 
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