Propane/LPG accessibility

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Wataworld

Wataworld

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
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Wataworld
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Defever 44+5
I am in the process of shopping for a Trawler and I see some have propane/LPG cooking available how easy is that to refill? Here in the states might be accessible but how about other places on the globe! At marina's? I am new to this forum so please take it easy!
Gregg:D
 
We have a propane galley and getting our propane tanks filled is a snap. We have two horizontal tanks so when one runs out (invariably in the middle of cooking a meal) we just switch to the other tank, which lasts for months, and refill the first one when it's convenient.

There may be some regions where refilling tanks is less convenient but in the PNW and BC it's no problem at all.

We love a propane galley and would never buy a boat with an electric galley.
 
Wataworld said:
I am in the process of shopping for a Trawler and I see some have propane/LPG cooking available how easy is that to refill? Here in the states might be accessible but how about other places on the globe! At marina's? I am new to this forum so please take it easy!
Gregg:D
Click to expand...

Don't worry about getting your propane tanks filled. Of the 40 plus countries we have been to, only 2 have been a problem and in both of those, we bought local tanks and trans-loaded into ours. The only issue we have had is the butane content gets higher in the tropics so the flame isn't as hot and you may have to adjust your cooking times.

We're in Trinidad now and every Friday morning an enterprising local does a propane run. He picks up the empty cylinders from the various boat yards and marinas and returns with full cylinders that afternoon or the next morning . The cost is less than $15 for a 20 lb cylinder. From our experiance, this is pretty typical outside the US or Canada.
 
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In our experience, propane is widely available in the US, Mexico, and some parts of the Caribbean.
 
IN the Us swopping cylinders is usually easier than finding a fill station.

Outside the US your tanks will be refilled , so being banged up ot switched can be a problem.

Loads of paint will help in dink , taxi trunk and pickup trips ,
DISTINCTIVE paint will help getting yours back.

Mere cooking is very inexpensive ,(3 -4 months a bottle)

propane refrigeration although great for the anchor out folks will eat a 20 LB tank a month.
 
Boatpoker:

Could you comment on propane gas detection and shutoff systems made by Xintex and perhaps others. In my experience the sensors fail after 6-12 months and give false positives.

David
 
my sensors seem to last 5-6 years before needing replacement. found some perfectly good replacements on ebay for about $5/ea.

The brand of mine is Electo-systems - I think from Bellingham, WA, it does a self-test each time the unit is powered up, but it is good practice to also test the sensors with acetone or other lighter than air from time to time.
 
Propane

Well you all are awesome so help full and full of info! Can't thank you enough!
Gregg
 
boatpoker said:
About 70% of the propane systems I inspect are dangerous. This article will show you what to look for in a Safe Propane Installation. Lots of photos of unsafe systems
Click to expand...


I read the Safe Propane Installation link, and while I agree that many of the older systems installed in Taiwan built boats among others could be "more safe", it is a bit extreme to call them all dangerous. Safety is a relative thing. The U.S. Coast Guard and Transport Canada base their safety rulemaking on the safety record of systems in the field, not on the latest and greatest ABYC criteria. Rulemaking must pass a cost/benefit analysis and a public comment process. If there was a serious, documented safety issue with these older installations, there would be rulemaking to force updates. There is not. Transport Canada is not sitting on their "hands" on this, they are doing what makes sense....nothing. Thank goodness that SAMS/NAMS is not in charge of rulemaking...there wouldn't be a pleasure boat industry.

Unfortunately, many SAMS/NAMS inspectors seem to believe that virtually every system in a 30-40 year old boat should be updated to the latest ABYC standard. As a result, insurance surveyors are driving up the cost of insurance and boat ownership through this wrong headed sort of thinking. I refuse to hire a SAMS/NAMS surveyor for this very reason.
 
The only thing I would add is to reinforce the comment from FF. When traveling outside the US, do everything you can to hold onto your tanks. In the Dom. Rep., for example, they make and exchange their own tanks there. The tanks are often sub-quality and prone to failure. Most of these failures are within the poor communities of Santo Domingo, but on a boat,...well, you get the idea. Mark your tanks and have them refilled. Try not to exchange tanks anywhere in the Caribbean if you can avoid it.
 
I don't think there's a better way to cook on a boat than a propane range and oven, provided it's built and approved for use on a boat and the propane system is fully ABYC compliant and tested for leaks on a regular basis.

As for tanks, if my tank is old and rusted, I exchange it. If it's bright and shiny, I get it refilled. ;)
 
For fun, try having a boat that uses CNG for galley fuel. Our Californian does. Stuff is rare as gold. One of these days we'll bite the bullet & switch things to LPG.
 
"I don't think there's a better way to cook on a boat than a propane range and oven, provided it's built and approved for use on a boat and the propane system is fully ABYC compliant and tested for leaks on a regular basis."

For inshore cruising you are right . World cruising ,,,

The Kerosene Primus would be my choice on a world cruise IF I did not have a propane reefer.

One 5 gal can of kerosene will last a year or so including oven baking .

No hassles with rowing bottles in the dink , and waiting , perhaps days for the refill.
 
chc said:
For fun, try having a boat that uses CNG for galley fuel. Our Californian does. Stuff is rare as gold. One of these days we'll bite the bullet & switch things to LPG.
Click to expand...

The range should be a snap. Many natural gas appliances I have bought (for home) mention converting to propane by changing the orfice for the burner(s). If you can't get these from the manufacturer, an experienced appliance repair person should be able to convert it using generic replacement parts.

The rest of the system may or may not be a problem. I suspect CNG would be treated much the same as propane as far as lockers, solenoids, controls, etc.

My experience with propane cooking as compared to natural gas (which I have had at home for most of my life) is that propane burns hotter so it takes a while to get used to keeping the flame a little lower when cooking.
 
Worked (unsuccessfully) to create Actelyne conveter that would allow fuel to be carried as rocks , then placed in water in a pressure tank .

The Brits have fewer restrictive laws so aceteline for stove and light is common in 3000PSI tanks delivered to the dock..

The gas is lighter than air so propane fears do not exist.

Although it was used in headlamps , and many city apartments made their own stove gas in the early 1900's , its harder to do in stove feeding volumes.

FF
 
FF said:
The Brits have fewer restrictive laws so aceteline for stove and light is common in 3000PSI tanks delivered to the dock..

FF
Click to expand...

Considering that acetylene will detonate at pressures above 15psig, that is quite a feat.
 
"Considering that acetylene will detonate at pressures above 15psig, that is quite a feat."

Your local welding shop has the style of bottles that do not seen to explode over 15 PSI..

But there too damn heavy for practical yacht use.
 
FF said:
Your local welding shop has the style of bottles that do not seen to explode over 15 PSI..

But there too damn heavy for practical yacht use.
Click to expand...


That's because they don't hold acetylene in gaseous form. They are filled with a concrete-like porous filler that holds dissolved acetylene in acetone. That is why they are so heavy.

It sounds like you might be lucky your carbide cannon project never got off the ground - literally.
 
skidgear said:
I read the Safe Propane Installation link, and while I agree that many of the older systems installed in Taiwan built boats among others could be "more safe", it is a bit extreme to call them all dangerous. Safety is a relative thing. The U.S. Coast Guard and Transport Canada base their safety rulemaking on the safety record of systems in the field, not on the latest and greatest ABYC criteria. Rulemaking must pass a cost/benefit analysis and a public comment process. If there was a serious, documented safety issue with these older installations, there would be rulemaking to force updates. There is not. Transport Canada is not sitting on their "hands" on this, they are doing what makes sense....nothing. Thank goodness that SAMS/NAMS is not in charge of rulemaking...there wouldn't be a pleasure boat industry.

Unfortunately, many SAMS/NAMS inspectors seem to believe that virtually every system in a 30-40 year old boat should be updated to the latest ABYC standard. As a result, insurance surveyors are driving up the cost of insurance and boat ownership through this wrong headed sort of thinking. I refuse to hire a SAMS/NAMS surveyor for this very reason.
Click to expand...

:thumb:

Are items like high water alarms for "larger pleasure vessels " recomended by ABYC yet ? I seem to see a lot of vessels dock side with water issues in the basement. The odd boat with that alarm gets my attention along with many I note when that boot stripe is under water. But I have only delt with a fume alarm a few times. Usualy they are false or from gas being stored in a not so smart location. Just my experiences. However turning the tank off works well when not in use IMO.

Also is ABYC realy not just a building standard that gets wrongly applied to old vessels by surveyors that realy have no idea to the intent of the standards.

Just more stuff that makes me go HMMMMMMM.
 
My favorite systems for cooking are all electric. With induction (a great invention and a logical and safe replacement for LPG)) or electric cooktops and convection microwaves, 30 amp dockpower or a small genset is quite sufficient. LPG can easily be surpassed for overall convenience.
 
Electric coocktops and ovens do not work well when away from a dock without a genset. If you have a genset and run it all the time or don't mind starting it up to use the coocktop, electric is OK.

My personal prefference is gas, at home or on the water. I find it easier to cook with than an electric stove.
 
Ron

Two years at home we threw out our gas stoves and ovens and went with induction tops and convection electric ovens. What a great move for us.

As a PS, some of us have gensets on our boats.
 
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sunchaser said:
Ron

Two years at home we threw out our gas stoves and ovens and went with induction tops and convection electric ovens. What a great move for us.

As a PS, some of us have gensets on our boats.
Click to expand...

That's fine and it's your choice. That's why all the different options are available.

Most chefs seem to like gas cooktops. I won't try to call myself a chef, but I can cook much easier and better on gas than on my inlaw's electric stove. It's easier for me to control the heat.

I do have a dual fuel range at home so my oven is electric. Electric works much better for self cleaning and the temperature is more even.

You are correct, some folks have gensets on their boats. Some do not. We should take a poll.
 
Most professional chefs prefer gas to electric for cooking for a variety of reasons. A few years ago I was hired to write a coffee-table cookbook for a 120' corporate yacht in partnership with the yacht's chef. The yacht had an all-electric galley even to the point of having a huge electric grill. One of my first questions to him was why electric, since I had heard most pros greatly prefer gas.

He told me he preferred gas, too, and did not like cooking with electric appliances. But the way this boat was used it would have had to carry a lot of propane or gas which meant having someplace to carry it, and it was not practical or in some cases even possible to refill tanks when they got low or ran out. So electric was the logistically the most practical way to go. The yacht had two big Northern Light generators, one shrouded and muffled to be virtually silent in operation.

When the galley of the yacht had been totally redesigned and re-equipped some years earlier the chef had selected a commercial grade cooktop and ovens because, he told me, they get much hotter and have much better temperature control throughout their range than home-type appliances.

But he still preferred gas.
 
skidgear said:
I read the Safe Propane Installation link, and while I agree that many of the older systems installed in Taiwan built boats among others could be "more safe", it is a bit extreme to call them all dangerous. Safety is a relative thing. The U.S. Coast Guard and Transport Canada base their safety rulemaking on the safety record of systems in the field, not on the latest and greatest ABYC criteria. Rulemaking must pass a cost/benefit analysis and a public comment process. If there was a serious, documented safety issue with these older installations, there would be rulemaking to force updates. There is not. Transport Canada is not sitting on their "hands" on this, they are doing what makes sense....nothing. QUOTE]

Transport Canada does not investigate boating accidents and the Transportation Safety Board of Canada does not investigate pleasure craft incidents unless a commercial vessel is involved. The USCG investigates on water incidents and does not investigate "marina" incidents and does not even have such a category in their database (available on line at uscgboatin.org).

Since the vast majority of boat sinkings, fires and explosions happen in harbour they are investigated locally by various fire departments and police in both US and Canada and these folks do not have a relevent database. The insurance companies keep their own records but again there is no centralized database..... maybe this is why some charge higher rates if a fixed propane system is installed and some will not insure boats with propane furnaces (very wise from what I have seen).

Point being .... no one knows how many LPG incidents occur on boats.
Click to expand...
 
Transport Canada does not investigate boating accidents and the Transportation Safety Board of Canada does not investigate pleasure craft incidents unless a commercial vessel is involved. The USCG investigates on water incidents and does not investigate "marina" incidents and does not even have such a category in their database (available on line at uscgboatin.org).

Since the vast majority of boat sinkings, fires and explosions happen in harbour they are investigated locally by various fire departments and police in both US and Canada and these folks do not have a relevent database. The insurance companies keep their own records but again there is no centralized database..... maybe this is why some charge higher rates if a fixed propane system is installed and some will not insure boats with propane furnaces (very wise from what I have seen).

Point being .... no one knows how many LPG incidents occur on boats.[/QUOTE]


Look carefully at the 2011 report in the statistics section of the link. The introductory material specifically states that marina and harbor incidents/accidents are mandatory reporting items if the cause is attributable to failure of on-board machinery or equipment (paraphrasing the regulation). That would include heating and cooking systems. Sound data are indeed available, at least from the USCG.
 
skidgear said:
Transport Canada does not investigate boating accidents and the Transportation Safety Board of Canada does not investigate pleasure craft incidents unless a commercial vessel is involved. The USCG investigates on water incidents and does not investigate "marina" incidents and does not even have such a category in their database (available on line at uscgboatin.org).

Since the vast majority of boat sinkings, fires and explosions happen in harbour they are investigated locally by various fire departments and police in both US and Canada and these folks do not have a relevent database. The insurance companies keep their own records but again there is no centralized database..... maybe this is why some charge higher rates if a fixed propane system is installed and some will not insure boats with propane furnaces (very wise from what I have seen).

Point being .... no one knows how many LPG incidents occur on boats.
Click to expand...


Look carefully at the 2011 report in the statistics section of the link. The introductory material specifically states that marina and harbor incidents/accidents are mandatory reporting items if the cause is attributable to failure of on-board machinery or equipment (paraphrasing the regulation). That would include heating and cooking systems. Sound data are indeed available, at least from the USCG.[/QUOTE]

From the USCGboating.org site ..."Federal law requires the operator – or owner, if the operator is deceased or unable to make the report – to file a boating accident report with the State reporting authority when, as a result of an occurrence that involves a boat or its equipment"

Note the requirement is to report to "State Authorities" (not USCG) who do not have a joint database of incidents. Also note you will not find USCG on hundreds of inland lakes making it impossible to investigate. Suggest you take a look at their statistics and think ytou'll find there is no such category defining at dock incidents.
 
boatpoker said:
Look carefully at the 2011 report in the statistics section of the link. The introductory material specifically states that marina and harbor incidents/accidents are mandatory reporting items if the cause is attributable to failure of on-board machinery or equipment (paraphrasing the regulation). That would include heating and cooking systems. Sound data are indeed available, at least from the USCG.
Click to expand...

From the USCGboating.org site ..."Federal law requires the operator – or owner, if the operator is deceased or unable to make the report – to file a boating accident report with the State reporting authority when, as a result of an occurrence that involves a boat or its equipment"

Note the requirement is to report to "State Authorities" (not USCG) who do not have a joint database of incidents. Also note you will not find USCG on hundreds of inland lakes making it impossible to investigate. Suggest you take a look at their statistics and think ytou'll find there is no such category defining at dock incidents.[/QUOTE]


Read the introductory paragraph to the 2011 summary report. It specifically states that the Coast Guard receives input from every State, Territory and the District of Columbia and the results are published in this report. States, etc. have 30 days to forward their data to the Coast Guard. The report also specifically states that "fire and explosions that occur underway and while anchored, moored, or docked if the fire resulted from the vessel or the vessel equipment" are included in the report. Appears to me that they're not in the 2011 report, because they didn't happen...not because you don't see a "category" for them. The data are generally organized by primary cause factor, not whether they happen at the dock or underway.

By the way, I recognize that there are poorly maintained and goofball owner installed systems out there. But there are also many perfectly safe original factory systems on 30-40 year old boats. Might not have the latest top loading sealed cannister, but that doesn't make them inherently unsafe.
 
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