SARCA demo DVD

Thanks Marin - good summing up, but there is no way my awivel would ever be in a position where it took sideways stress or strain, so I'm happy to sleep on it.
In this pic, I think you can see, the u-end loop of the anchor shackle is in the loop of swivel, which is a double loop ended type with no pin, and the boat end of that is looped by the u end of the secondary shackle, then the pin end of that shackle is through the last chain link. Sorry my safety hook gets in the way a bit, I was not taking the pic to illustrate this point when I took it, or I'd have removed it. Anyway, take it from me, no way can it end up under sideways strain.
However I agree the swivel you put up is a good one, and I had a similar one on previously, but when I went to swap ends of the chain, I could not dislodge the pin, no matter what I tried, so it had to be sacrificed to remove it. Reassuring in retrospect it was never going to come off, but rather an expensive exercise. I went back to the simpler double ended swivel used previously with no dramas.
Oh yes, one other thing, that type of swivel you've shown, would not work in the Sarca slot properly, so one would still have to have a shackle linking it to the anchor in that context, so sort of defeats the one stop shop benefit of that fancy type of swivel, which are rather expensive. Ie nearly $US 300 for the size I would need....
http://www.goodboatgear.com/detail/7013/Wasi_Power_Ball_-_Chain_to_Anchor_Connector

Peter--- If I had a buck for every swivel I've seen installed backwards-- with the bracket or "leg" end attached directly to the anchor shank-- we'd have a Fleming or Eastbay instead of this pathetic, plodding old GB.

Nevertheless, it's the correct way for a Sarca Marin, trust me on that.

Peter B said:

Nevertheless, it's the correct way for a Sarca Marin, trust me on that.

Click to expand...

Yours isn't set up that way from your photo and description. There is a shackle between your swivel and the anchor shank. So your swivel can pivot to face any direction and keep the pull straight through it. If there is a shackle between the swivel and the shank it doesn't matter which end of the swivel is attached to the shackle.

I'm talking about the folks who attach the open end, U- end, leg end, whatever you want to call it, directly to the anchor shank. This arrangement allows the swivel to pivot in only one direction. If the boat gets off to the side of the anchor the swivel cannot pivot to point at it. So the load is sideways on the swivel pin and with a side load the pin will break long before it or any other part of the swivel would break with a straight through load.

I didn't know any of this and in fact put our swivel on backwards until I read Earl Hinz' book on anchoring and mooring. In it he does a great job of explaining the pros and cons of swivels and illustrates the consequences of installing one backwards. After reading this I re- installed ours correctly but then in thinking about it and talking to people we met with years of anchoring experience we eliminated the swivel altogether.

Peter B said:

Nevertheless, it's the correct way for a Sarca Marin, trust me on that.

Click to expand...

Your swivel is attached to your anchor shank with a shackle. I'm talking about the people wh attach the open end, U- end, leg end, whatever you want to call it, directly to the anchor shank. This allows the swivel to pivot in only one direction, up and down in line with the shank. It cannot pivot out of line with the shank so if the boat gets off to the side of the anchor the swivel cannot pivot to point at it. So the load is sideways on the swivel pin and with a side load the pin will break long before it or any other part of the swivel would break with a straight through load.

I didn't know any of this and in fact put our swivel on backwards until I read Earl Hinz' book on anchoring and mooring. In it he does a great job of explaining the pros and cons of swivels and illustrates the consequences of installing one backwards. After reading this I re- installed ours correctly but then in thinking about it and talking to people we met with years of anchoring experience we eliminated the swivel altogether.

My reading confirms never using a "barrel" type swivel to directly connect chain to anchor. But can we clarify which end goes towards the anchor? Marin,you seem to say the "leg" end (the divided end with a pin across the gap?)should not go towards the anchor,but the swivel pic in your earlier post showing chain attached suggests otherwise. My (unfitted) swivel has a taper or cone one end, I took that as the inboard end, to come back easily over the roller.(Nice if the swivel came with instructions.)
I had a call from Rex on Saturday night to check what I might be doing, impressive follow up. He confirmed fitting a second shackle between the slot mounted shackle and the chain,(something he also said the day I bought the anchor),and said attach the shackles "U to U". He likes Peter`s swivel set up (which as best I can see uses an older style gal swivel), but said avoid fitting one if possible. BruceK

Marin said:

Your swivel is attached to your anchor shank with a shackle. I'm talking about the people wh attach the open end, U- end, leg end, whatever you want to call it, directly to the anchor shank. This allows the swivel to pivot in only one direction, up and down in line with the shank. It cannot pivot out of line with the shank so if the boat gets off to the side of the anchor the swivel cannot pivot to point at it. So the load is sideways on the swivel pin and with a side load the pin will break long before it or any other part of the swivel would break with a straight through load.

Click to expand...

Yes, sorry Marin, brain fade on my part...where you said 'swivel' I read 'shackle'. You are quite right. The special up-sized stainless shackle goes through the Sarca slot with the pin/bolt through the slot in the anchor shank. Because of that, one needs a size down to fit to the chain link. The swivel in between is optional. I chose to use it to elliminate twisting and make alignment easier. That was the bit I was trying to emphasize, because in that it might well differ from what you might do with an ordinary non-slotted anchor, where that would not really matter so much, but for the slotted anchor, it's essential the bolt goes through the slot. That was the bit Bruce originally got confused over.
As for the swivel, I agree, it must be able to rotate in all directions. However, Bruce is right, in the picture of the one you recommended, because it has that special multi-directional swiveling end that attaches to the chain, the open leg end does look like it is intended to bolt straight onto the anchor shank.
http://www.goodboatgear.com/detail/7013/Wasi_Power_Ball_-_Chain_to_Anchor_Connector

Quote from the illustration....
Non-binding, full 360° swivel action and 30° side-to-side movement protects the anchor shank from the stresses created by boat movement and make anchor entanglement virtually a thing of the past
• Easily passes through anchor rollers
• Secondary patented locking screws prevent the accidental unscrewing of the primary connecting bolts and are also a practical anti-theft feature for your anchor
• Made of high quality AISI 316 Stainless Steel - rust-free and will last the lifetime of your vessel
• Replaces both the anchor shackle and the connecting swivel

It doesn't matter which end of a swivel is aiming at the anchor shank as long as it's connected to the anchor in a way that allows it to pivot in any direction relative to the shank. The most common if not the only way to do this is with a shackle between the swivel and the shank. It doesn't matter if you connect the leg end of the swivel to the shackle or the loop end.

When we used a swivel we always attached the loop end to a shackle on the anchor shank and the leg end directly to the chain. This way-- which is the way Hinz recommends in his book-- only one shackle is required.

If you put the leg end toward the anchor you'll need to use two shackles. One between the leg end and the shank and another one between the loop end of the swivel and the chain since there's no way to get the last chain link directly onto the closed swivel loop.

What's neat about the WASI Powerball is that it does not have a swivel pin at all. Instead it has the ball and socket arrangement. So there is no weak-link swivel pin that might break under a side load. Connecting the legs of the WASI directly to the anchor shank doesn't put the swivel pin at risk because there isn't one.

This is the problem those shiny "bullet" swivels so many boaters like to use. If you connect the legs of the swivel directly to the anchor shank-- which from our observation almost all users of this kind of swivel do-- the swivel can only pivot in one direction on the shank so the swivel pin inside it will be subjected to side loads if the boat moves out of line with the anchor.

We long ago eliminated the swivel in our setup altogether and attached the chain directly to the anchor with one shackle. So the whole thing became a non- issue.

Yep, no argument there, but have a closer look at that Wasabi powerball, or whatever it's called you put up. (Follow the link)
http://www.goodboatgear.com/detail/7013/Wasi_Power_Ball_-_Chain_to_Anchor_Connector
It does show the leg end attaching (implied) direct to the shank, so is an exception to the rule, and goes a small way to explaining why it costs ten times as much as other swivels....maybe..?

Peter B said:

Y
It does show the leg end attaching (implied) direct to the shank, so is an exception to the rule, and goes a small way to explaining why it costs ten times as much as other swivels....maybe..?

Click to expand...

See my edit to my previous post. Attaching the legs of the WASI directly to the anchor shank does not put the swivel pin at risk because there isn't one. Instead it has the ball and socket arrangement which is WAY stronger than the swivel pin in a conventional swivel. This is why the WASI is so clever and is the only swivel we would ever use if we felt we needed a swivel. Which we don't.

Yes, I did get the ball & socket thing - which is why it is so expensive I imagine, as that would not be cheap to produce. You might say it is the Rolls Royce of swivels. The trouble could be having to sacrifice it when it came time to change the chain, as like the one I had (similar), those special locking, thief-proof pins are virtually un-removable. They use a special Allan type key into specially shaped recesses in the end to tighten, and the things tend to strip out when you try to undo them after years in salt water and they have seized up. So stick to not having one, is my advice.

Marin said:

It doesn't matter which end of a swivel is aiming at the anchor shank as long as it's connected to the anchor in a way that allows it to pivot in any direction relative to the shank. The most common if not the only way to do this is with a shackle between the swivel and the shank. It doesn't matter if you connect the leg end of the swivel to the shackle or the loop end. .

Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification Marin, and thank you Peter for your comments. Calder`s Cruising Handbook p400 is consistent,in summary "avoid using one but if you do, put a shackle in between". I may get the Earl Hinz book from Amazon too. BruceK

Well guys I have been using a swivel on my anchors for the last 17 years and wouldn't install one with =out.
I have attached a photo of my latest unit attached to my SARCA Excel.
Really stood up the other night when we got a strong wind change whilst I was anchored down at Pelican Point.
Started at about 03 00 and blew to 35 knots plus eased to 15 about 0430 so back to sleep.
Woke up at 0630 and we were the only boat around , previously had about 5 boats and some of them were draging anchor.

Benn, I hate to introduce an element of negativity - or put a dampener on anything like, and your experience would clearly justify your confidence, but it does rather appear that with the rigid leg end the pin goes through attached to your anchor shank, sideways forces could under certain circumstances be applied to the swivel centre pin itself. Please explain why that is not a problem with your set-up, so we can sleep easy too.

Peter, I can't exactly see what you are getting at.
The pin in the anchor is not tight and then the swivel is attached to the chain so that it all swivels in all directions.
There would be no point in installing another shackle or swivel in the system.
Some do like a short length of chain between the swivel and anchor shank but I am not of that ilk.
This is also the reccomended method from most swivel manufacturers.
Don't worry I sleep well at night anchored out in all sorts of open and exposed anchorages.
The best part of the system is the size of the anchor and the weight of chain.

Peter,
The other thing is if there was that much sideways force on your anchor it would have to be caught in some very hard coral or rocks to prevent movement and if so one is probably using the wrong style of anchor.
In that sort of bottom I would most likely be using my star type reef pick.

Benn, I suspect you are right in almost in all cases, your anchor would end up pointed in line with the direction of pull, but it is theoretically possible for the anchor to bed in or be trapped so tight a sideways pull of significance can be exerted, and there have been published accounts of anchor flukes and shanks being bent in that way. Your swivel actually rotates round an axis which is in line with the shank, but there appears no provision for a hinging or sideways movement other than straight up and down. I think the best way to explain the theoretical risk in such a case is to re-quote part of one of Marin's posts because it does illustrate it rather well.....

Originally Posted by Marin
Your swivel is attached to your anchor shank with a shackle. (Talking about mine here), I'm talking about the people who attach the open end, U- end, leg end, whatever you want to call it, directly to the anchor shank. This allows the swivel to pivot in only one direction, up and down in line with the shank. It cannot pivot out of line with the shank so if the boat gets off to the side of the anchor the swivel cannot pivot to point at it. So the load is sideways on the swivel pin and with a side load the pin will break long before it or any other part of the swivel would break with a straight through load.

Does that explain what I am getting at a bit more clearly...?
I don't want to cause alarm, as we are talking flukey situations I guess, but it is a possibility. In other words, fixed on like yours is, the swivel is in effect almost becoming part of the shank (in the horizontal plane), rather than part of the freely moving chain...
Still great to hear you are getting a good performance out of your Excel, as it's got to be one of the best damn anchors around. But having said that, as it is not going to let go, it is all the more important for its connections to be equally robust, I think you would agree. Hope there is no angst re my concerns above as a result.
Pete
PS. We still haven't managed to touch base with each other - maybe this summer...?

The way the swivel is attached in the photo is exactly the way that Hinz in his book describes is the wrong way to do it. With the legs attached directly to the anchor shank the swivel cannot pivot to the side. It can pivot only up and down in line with the shank. So if the boat gets off to the side of the set anchor the swivel cannot pivot sideways to align with the direction of pull. Which means the load on the swivel pin at the core of the swivel has a sideways component.

The swivel's strength is rated with a straight-through pull. It will be less, conceivably a lot less, if the boat's position puts a sideways load on the swivel pin. And if the swivel pin shears or breaks, the two halves of the swivel separate and the boat will no longer be attached to the anchor. Hinz has some illustrations in his book of boats that ended up on the beach as a result of the swivel pin breaking under a sideways load because the swivel could not pivot to the side to remain in line with the load.

This is why he and others recommend the swivel always be attached to the anchor with a shackle, which will allow the swivel to pivot in any direction to remain in line with the pull of the boat no matter where it is in relation to the anchor.

While the notion that a strong sideways pull would most likely unset the anchor and thus relieve the sideways load on the swivel pin is valid, if the anchorage is rough and the boat is moving around or pitching up and down, the swivel could be subjected to a very hard jerk or shock before the anchor unsets. And this sudden jerk with the associated high load is all that might be needed to cause the pin to shear.

Guys point taken and I can see the concern if the that happens.
Will have to look at a better connection.

Tidahapah said:

Guys point taken and I can see the concern if the that happens.
Will have to look at a better connection.

Click to expand...

All you have to do is put a suitably rated shackle between your existing swivel and the anchor shank.

A while back I searched fitting swivels online and saw a pic of a s/s barrel type swivel of "legs" directly attached to the anchor, deformed and failing. Which is why I put off fitting mine. But Benn`s good experience,even with no shackle, favors fitting one, with shackle.
Re posts 2 & 3 above, on mixing gal and s/steel parts. This was in a dark recess of memory. Calder (Cruising Handbook p.398) criticizes s/s shackles with gal chain: 1. the higher WLL of an s/s shackle may be illusory as they are typically rated at half that;2. s/s may cause galvanic corrosion(? means corroding the gal,or something else). However, Sarca specifies using a s/s shackle in the slot of the gal steel Super Sarca, so the next shackle might as well be s/s too. BruceK

As a PS to my previous post don't forget to safety wire the pins of any shackles you have in your anchor rode.

To paraphrase somebody famous....

"For want of a nail a shoe was lost. For want of a shoe a horse was lost. For want of a horse a soldier was lost. For want of a soldier a skirmish was lost. For the loss of the skirmish a battle was lost. For the loss of the battle a war was lost. For the loss of the war a country was lost."

Sounds like something Robert E. Lee might have said.....

Anyway, safety wire your shackle pins.

Dead right safety wire shackle pin with s/s wire nothing else.
I have a long story about doing this type of thing with electrical cable ties (don't)
One day I will take time to elaborate on the storey

Ok, all's well that ends well, eh guys, and we'll all sleep easier knowing Benn is sleeping tight swinging on the best anchor, and connections in the business.
I think by now Bruce will be very clear exactly what to do as well, right Bruce..?
Oh yes, one last thing...there is no issue mixing stainless shackles swivels and chain. They are not immersed in an anchoring situation long enough for galvanic corrosion to exert any real influence. I've certainly not noticed it after 10 years, and my swivel has always attached to a galvanised secondary shackle, even tho the main one through the anchor slot is stainless as recommended. Actually, Rex of Sarca did tell me last time we had a chat, that for anchor sizes above about Sarca number 7, a galvanised shackle through the slot is ok, for what it's worth.

Yes Peter,I do, the issues are well ventilated, many thanks. I should add that Rex from Sarca advocates giving the end of the shackle pins a hammering to lock them up. BruceK

We fitted a 22kg no. 6 Super Sarca. Initially the shackles, one with the pin in the slot and the other attached to it U to U, connecting the all chain rode, would tangle, affecting sets. So we added a gal swivel between the 2 shackles.
Yesterday we were committee boat for a one day series of sailboat (Elliots) match racing on Sydney Harbour. The varying wind direction saw us anchor 3 times as the triangle course needed adjustment. Each time, in about 36-40ft of water, the anchor set perfectly. It also tolerated a near 180 degree wind change. I pronounce the change from plough/CQR to S/Sarca a success.

Nice one Bruce. The time you will really appreciate it is the times on the pick when unforcasted nasty stuff happens at night, once you've settled in for the night. Usually, at the most all you might do it let out from say your light weather 1:3, or mod weather 1:5, to a scope of 1:7, and put your longer storm snubber on. Then go back to your bunk, to rest if not sleep.