Interesting trawler

manyboats said:

... I'd like to see her bottom before pronouncing her seaworthy.

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Well?

Marin said:

I agree that the boat in your shot would look nice with vertical windows, too. I don't mind vertical windows. On many designs I think they work very well and in many cases look better than if the windows had been raked back. It's just the forward raked wannabe windows that I think look bad on virtually every boat that has them. Functional, maybe if it's a boat that warrants that type of window. But on a recreational boat to me they just look dumb while at the same time destroying what good aesthetic lines the boat would otherwise have.

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So, looks over function?

Northern Spy said:

Well?

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which boat are you referring?

manyboats said:

As does Griffin (as shown).

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Griffin and Northern Spy were on the same dock down in Tsehum Harbour when I first purchased her. I wasted a lot of time admiring Griffin. Sometimes Bill Garden achieved absolute perfection.

markpierce said:

So, where did you get that photo? Are you a spy? No ! A poor one at that. That's not the boat!

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Check again. That is Pacific Song in the slings at Port Townsend.

Sir Spy, I was confused as to which boat you were referring.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13159&d=1348187720

I just can't look at a boat like this without thinking about where it could take me.

Northern Spy said:

Griffin and Northern Spy were on the same dock down in Tsehum Harbour when I first purchased her. I wasted a lot of time admiring Griffin. Sometimes Bill Garden achieved absolute perfection.

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See photo in Northern Spy's post # 34: Now, that trawler has the perfect transom for handling following seas!

I'll have to admit to admiring fine ##s.

markpierce said:

So, looks over function?

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Yeah, like you're going to take a monster ocean comber into your windows in that pond you drive around in down there. We're certainly not going to take any in the trenches we drive around in up here.

Most recreational boats never see conditions where wannabe windows are actually going to play a role in the survivability of the boat. They might reduce glare in some cases (we don't have a glare problem in our boat due to the flying bridge overhang), they might keep the rain off (again, not a problem on our boat plus we have real good wipers), and they might provide some extra room to hang instruments if you like instruments hung up overhead (again, a non-issue in our boat).

I'm all for function over looks where function is the more important of the two. But other than people who are going to take on major ocean crossings and such, wannabe windows don't have any function other than looking like they do. Sort of like the H2 Hummer. Big tough wannabe body bolted onto a wussy Chevy Tahoe.

So when it comes to coastal recreational boats, absolutely it's looks over function for me as far as the wannabe windows are concerned. I have no reason to drive an ugly boat because I'm never going to encounter the conditions that justify the boat being ugly.

Want you to know the angle of the windows was not a factor in the Coot's selection. Makes me wonder why I get involved in this "angle-of-window" discussion, other than to say I don't mind my windows. Let's just say they are functional as in reducing reflections and reducing direct interior sunlight.

IF the boat's built that way and you want that boat you live with what you get. In my case there aren't any boats built with wannabe windows that I'd want bad enough to accept the windows.

Marin said:

IF the boat's built that way and you want that boat you live with what you get.

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Agree, except the Coot's window angles were not a negative for me.

But, But - Marin... Forward raked windows don't get seagull DoDo on em! See, they are for more than just looks on our toy boats!

Wannabe windows have additional benefits besides reducing wave impact. Ship docking tugs use them (as do air traffic control towers) to reduce glare and reflection in both daylight and at night. They also create space above the helm for mounting electronic toys of your choice. Any body who thinks they don't lessen wave impact has never been in my world.

Boy you all sure do get snippy about windows!,
I do know that the outward slanted pilot house windows reduce the glare from INSIDE the bridge at night from all the instrument /electronics lighting making it possible to see through the windows better. Volunteer had the vertical windows that looked right on a old fish boat, but piloting at night was a big issue because of the reflected light made them work like heads up displays.
Regarding the bottom on the steel boats by Bill Breeze all the boats he built had the same style bottom as the Pacific Song.. they are the same type bottom as most of the seiner's built in steel... and most definitely seaworthy!

Sailor of Fortune said:

Wannabe windows have additional benefits besides reducing wave impact. Ship docking tugs use them (as do air traffic control towers) to reduce glare and reflection in both daylight and at night. They also create space above the helm for mounting electronic toys of your choice. Any body who thinks they don't lessen wave impact has never been in my world.

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SoF

You are quite correct - - - > I conjecture that most on this forum have never been in your world (know I haven’t, sounds exhilarating though) and I’m confident that forward raked windows are quite a good thing in BIG open ocean storms with crashing waves (only seems logical). That style window probably would work well under many other circumstances you mention too. For the “toy” boats most of us have... the exterior brow over pilot windows on salon face suffice and some here have explicit preferences as to the “cosmetic look” provided by certain style windows... each to their own re window rake or style... till your world is entered, then forward rake seems the logical window angle to have for sturdiness, usefulness, and safety! As always, safe sailing to ya!
Cheers! Art

S of F,
I'll never be convinced fwd slant windows have less wave impact imploding potential. If one has shapes and structure ahead and/or below the windows all the better but a back slanted window should pass heavy rushing water over better until the water/wave comes down on the window instead of across at it. But for our little trawler boats the main thing is structural integrity. But w a long straight foredeck like an old Mathews slanted back would be better but window angle on trawlers is fly stuff, almost completely so the real question is really "do ya like'um?"

I think Coot's windows look good and work good.

Don says "I just can't look at a boat like this without thinking about where it could take me." Beautifully put Don.

Northern Spy,
I see a compromise on deck space and seakindlyness. A tug boat or old fish boat stern minimizing her cheeks would be better. A boat that looks like it does in the bow in the stern is going to handle best in the big stuff. This boat has an upturned bottom w nearly a maximum QBBL angle like I wish most other trawlers had so she's truly full disp but she still has cheeks that a quartering stern sea can get ahold of, help roll the boat the wrong way and increase broaching possibilities. This is obviously much better than the straight run aft stern like a IG. But the ultimate sea boat will be pointed and actually hollow in the stern. So I'll give the boat in question a B+. So Spy and Art .. not perfect but quite good. And all this is without commenting on keel, rudder, forefoot, CG ect ect. All looks good in the pic though.

Moonstruck said:

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13159&d=1348187720

I just can't look at a boat like this without thinking about where it could take me.

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I can't help but to agree with you 100% on that.

manyboats said:

But the ultimate sea boat will be pointed and actually hollow in the stern.

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Like this ?:

Sailor of Fortune said:

Wannabe windows have additional benefits besides reducing wave impact. Ship docking tugs use them (as do air traffic control towers) to reduce glare and reflection in both daylight and at night. They also create space above the helm for mounting electronic toys of your choice. Any body who thinks they don't lessen wave impact has never been in my world.

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Wannabe windows are functional in situations where they are functional. Control towers, ocean-going ships and fishing vessels that have to be able to take whatever the ocean dishes out, rescue vessels, etc. all benefit from them.

I'm not taking our boat into the open ocean so the assumed wave protection is a total non-issue as it is on 99.99999 percent of recreational boats. We have zip, zero, nada glare issues with the windows in our GB, even at night, because of the way the instruments are mounted. There is no glare issue during the day because of the flying bridge overhang. We don't get seagull poop on them for the same reason. The spray we do get on the windows would not be reduced if they were vertical or slanted forward. Our wipers are excellent. We have enough space at the lower helm to mount a B-29 let alone radar, radios, etc. So the added overhead space from wannabe windows is irrelevant (as it is on most boats with slanted-back or vertical windows I've been on but I agree there are exceptions).

All of which leaves only one one factoid about wannabe windows that is relevant to me, and that is that I think they are butt-ugly and ruin every designer's' effort to make a boat good looking. Every boat I see with wannabe windows, no matter how nice the rest of the boat's lines are, looks like a surprised clown.

Don't forget Scorpius, See the classifieds for a new lower price too .....Arctic Traveller

manyboats said:

regarding forward slanting windows.....
so the real question is really "do ya like'um?"

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We have one of the few boats that were offered in two different windshield styles. I submit that it the actual positioning of the helm and its distance from the windshield may have had something to do with Jim Krogen offering the North-Sea style windshield, even though there were only six built. I can only speak about the "differences" in the two styles as they relate to our experience here in Florida. Here are some of the things we noted by being aboard other visiting Manatees at our dock. These were all experienced cruisers and half the comments came from them.

1. In evening cruises, the lack of instrument glare is something we appreciate over over our previous boats.
2. When hosting other Manatee owners here at our dock, they are stricken by the contrast of sun and heat while standing at the totally shaded helm.
3. We've got kind-of a tropical sea-bird issue here (I mean some really big birds) and we've escaped the bird doo-doo problem of our neighbors.
4. When the boat is idle, no windshield cover is necessary to prevent UV effects in the boat, especially at the helm and chart table areas.
5. Underway in full sunshine, there's no reflection off the white areas of the helm. Sunglasses are rarely needed.
6. Wind pushes rain down the windshield rather than up.
7. Even in driving rain, we haven't felt a need for wipers.
8. The high pressure area created with the air-trap at the base of the windshield greatly facilitates ventilation through the intake ducts system on the front of the pilothouse.
9. In our humid climate, when standing at the helm, the conventional model's windshield is very close to the forehead. Air flow to defrost or dry the windshield is directed into the eyes. With the North-Sea style, those air currents are 3 ft. away and going the opposite direction.

A few disadvantages:
1. Turning-on overhead lights in the pilothouse reflect in the windshield.
2. In Northern, cool climates, there would be little sun-warming effect.
3. Sky watching is greatly reduced, and occasional glances out the pilothouse doors might be necessary during weather.
4. A higher mast is necessary to run mast support stays forward to bow.

It should be noted that 93 out of 99 of the boats were ordered with the conventional style, including Jim Krogen's own original Manatee. My Admiral and I know we already have a style challenged vessel, but we do prefer the North-Sea option, even if it is probably the prime example of wannabee windows on the site. For where and how we use the boat, it fits our needs better. Had the helm been located further back in the house, like the 42, for example, it may not make any difference.

Objective and a well presented summary on north sea (NS) windows. I sorta do'nt care for them and don't think they they are worth stewing about but I think I understand why Marin sorta hates them. He thinks they are pretentious and of course he's right. Who along the line that brought the NS windows about is kinda foggy. The customers perceived by the NA that designed the boat, the builders, the 1st owner or owners down the line. Usually probably all to some degree. We buyers just buy what's out there but to some degree the NS windows had an effect on how we responded to the boat. There undoubtably are owners that feel a bit like Marin but would have bought the boat they did no matter what windows it had. Put me in that catergory. And some of it depends on the rest of the design of the boat. Imagine how stupid the GB36 would look w NS windows.
Lastly I'm not fond of the expression wannabe windows but it's clear what it means.

Eric--- My objection to forward-raked windows is not so much that they're pretentious but because they're simply so damn ugly. Now if ugly solves a legitimate problem or makes something safer then I'm all for ugly. But in the case of nearly all recreational boats, forward raked windows serve no real purpose other than their being the visual equivalent of calling a cabin cruiser a "trawler." Both are marketing ploys to enhance the image of the boat to the buyers.

I don't like what to me are ugly boats and would never buy one (the Grand Banks is on very thin ice with me in this regard). Therefore, unless I wanted a true trawler to go commercial fishing with in all sorts of weather, I would never consider buying a boat with forward-raked or North Sea widows. The commercial trawler with NS windows is still an ugly boat in my opinion, but at least there's a legitimate reason for it. Not so the coastal cabin cruiser Joe Boater is going to take to the Gulf Islands or SE Alaska or back and forth across SFO Bay or up the ICW.

#2 son and GF/companion today viewed from Coot's forward-raked pilothouse windows.

Boy O' Boy - - > I am sure glad Eric and Marin finally got NS/forward- raked windows all figured out. Whew! I was sweaating their conclusion! Now ! can sleep well! Thanks guys! And, Good Night!!

markpierce said:

#2 son and GF/companion today viewed from Coot's forward-raked pilothouse windows.

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There's another good reason for NS windows... makes people look thinner too! -

From last weekend, #1 son looking out Coot's forward-raked windows. Oh! the spaciousness they create in the pilothouse!

Both sons are around 6'2" tall compared to their father's (my) 5'8" height. Two more inches and they would be scraping the boat's ceilings.

Art said:

There's another good reason for NS windows... makes people look thinner too! -

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You've got to be kidding!