I almost bought a near perfectly maintained 1979 40' marine trader (list $76K, contract for $65k). Financing fell thru. Now looking at a craigslisting for an almost same boat for $20K. No supposed soggy hull, and no teak decks. However, leaks where the topside mounts to the deck, so that walls will need to be torn out, and replaced. Supposedly, $5k will do the trick. The question is however: will i continuosly throw good money after bad (some say $50k - $150k over the next 10 - 15 years). The good news is i don't have to worry about getting a loan, and I'm not a perfectionist, and am quite handy. Single diesel has 3,000 hours which sounds legit. Since I own a 2670 Cruisers, this trawler is strickly for living on and using as a second home. also, heard about iron tanks, but $5k ish will get me a alt to pulling tanks thru a hole in the hull. Where does the 50-150 numbers come from, assuming good hull core????
Need serious opinions on buying an old trawler
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ksanders
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You WILL throw allot of money and time at any boat over a 10-15 year time span.
You have two phases with any boat.
1. Restore (catching up on defered maintenance)
2. Upkeep
Buying a project boat means that of course you will have allot more "restore"
Those numbers don't suprise me. If you supply 100% of the labor you will probably come out less but then you'll have a large investment of your time.
CPseudonym
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Not being a perfectionist is a real plus for a $20K boat in the 40 foot range. The majority of boats on Craigslist with seemingly low prices are typically there for a reason, brokers won't touch them.
Before making a move on it do yourself a favor, locate and hire a good surveyor to inspect the boat thoroughly. Owner supplied recent surveys do NOT count. It's the best money you'll spend. You may have stumbled upon the deal of a lifetime or the start of a nightmare. A survey will assist you determining which.
"The question is however: will i continuosly throw good money after bad?"
Answer: Perhaps more than you may imagine.
Before making a move on it do yourself a favor, locate and hire a good surveyor to inspect the boat thoroughly. Owner supplied recent surveys do NOT count. It's the best money you'll spend. You may have stumbled upon the deal of a lifetime or the start of a nightmare. A survey will assist you determining which.
"The question is however: will i continuosly throw good money after bad?"
Answer: Perhaps more than you may imagine.
There's a reason for the difference in the price. A 40' boat for $20K is just a short way from the scrap heap. If you want something to block up in the back yard to occupy your time (and the neighbors don't mind), buy it. Just understand that in the end, regardless of the time and money you invest, you will still have a $20K boat.
It might bother ou to spend $1K to have a $20K boat surveyed as suggested above, but it could save you from wasting the other $19K.
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CPseudonym
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Some surveyors offer a pre-purchase survey for far less than the cost of a full survey that'll help you assess if it's worth pursuing. Another route you can go is making your offer contingent upon an acceptable survey before closing the deal.
Say you like the boat and offer full asking 20K contingent upon a clean survey. Surveyor comes along and finds the keel full of water and delaminated stringers. Estimated cost to repair of say 6K. If you wish to pursue it ask for a 6K price reduction or if you can not agree to that and wish to walk away you can.
It's just a way to protect yourself from making a potential mistake in purchasing a vessel that'll break your heart and dreams.
Say you like the boat and offer full asking 20K contingent upon a clean survey. Surveyor comes along and finds the keel full of water and delaminated stringers. Estimated cost to repair of say 6K. If you wish to pursue it ask for a 6K price reduction or if you can not agree to that and wish to walk away you can.
It's just a way to protect yourself from making a potential mistake in purchasing a vessel that'll break your heart and dreams.
I will probably get slammed for this, but Marine Traders have a checkered build history. Some are crap, and some are pretty good.
The crap ones have superstructures built of cardboard filled plywood with just a thin skin of fiberglass over it. So any leaks in the joints quickly rots the core out of these panels and leaves them with no structural strength.
I had a friend with one of these and he took a chain saw to the entire superstructure and started over.
So by all means hire a surveyor to assess the boat, but at a $20K price tag be prepared for junk or almost junk. That isn't to say that almost junk might not make a nice liveaboard.
David
The crap ones have superstructures built of cardboard filled plywood with just a thin skin of fiberglass over it. So any leaks in the joints quickly rots the core out of these panels and leaves them with no structural strength.
I had a friend with one of these and he took a chain saw to the entire superstructure and started over.
So by all means hire a surveyor to assess the boat, but at a $20K price tag be prepared for junk or almost junk. That isn't to say that almost junk might not make a nice liveaboard.
David
twiisted71
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Fedar, if you are here long enough you will see that I have a different perspective than most here, so.......
If you are looking at a 40' boat for $20k, don't expect to be able to go after the seller to lower the price according to your surveyors pitfalls. Its a 40' boat for $20k, you'd better be expecting lots of things to need attention. If you are buying said boat for $75k sure go after them for problems turned up in a survey as you are paying full price for said boat. I buy and sell most things on the low end of the spectrum because I like to pay cash and not have to make payments and throw away money in interest and I'm not a perfectionist and I do all my own work. I have sent more than one "buyer" packing after coming to see something I'm selling and then start nitpicking. I do give honest descriptions of what my items are like and what they need. I've been around boats all my life and I can't see what any surveyor would be able to tell me that I couldn't know about for myself. My boats will never be up to ABYC MOUSE or any other acronym's standards but they are safe and I use the heck out of them and take my family aboard. Go see this boat, poke your head in every nook and cranny, run the motor, genset, A/C other major systems, check out plumbing, heads, and general condition of wiring and make your decision based on what you are willing to get into. For some people having to do a repower would be the deal breaker, or leaking tanks etc. Only you can tell what actually is a deal breaker for you.
PS sometimes you stumble on a DEAL. Don't let naysayers keep you from atleast going to look, you may be the 1st person to show up! I was the 1st to show and offer on my Mainship. Tropical storm Lee combined with a BAD stockmarket day netted me a great deal.
If you are looking at a 40' boat for $20k, don't expect to be able to go after the seller to lower the price according to your surveyors pitfalls. Its a 40' boat for $20k, you'd better be expecting lots of things to need attention. If you are buying said boat for $75k sure go after them for problems turned up in a survey as you are paying full price for said boat. I buy and sell most things on the low end of the spectrum because I like to pay cash and not have to make payments and throw away money in interest and I'm not a perfectionist and I do all my own work. I have sent more than one "buyer" packing after coming to see something I'm selling and then start nitpicking. I do give honest descriptions of what my items are like and what they need. I've been around boats all my life and I can't see what any surveyor would be able to tell me that I couldn't know about for myself. My boats will never be up to ABYC MOUSE or any other acronym's standards but they are safe and I use the heck out of them and take my family aboard. Go see this boat, poke your head in every nook and cranny, run the motor, genset, A/C other major systems, check out plumbing, heads, and general condition of wiring and make your decision based on what you are willing to get into. For some people having to do a repower would be the deal breaker, or leaking tanks etc. Only you can tell what actually is a deal breaker for you.
PS sometimes you stumble on a DEAL. Don't let naysayers keep you from atleast going to look, you may be the 1st person to show up! I was the 1st to show and offer on my Mainship. Tropical storm Lee combined with a BAD stockmarket day netted me a great deal.
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bobofthenorth
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What "twiisted71" said. It doesn't matter what you pay for a boat its going to need ongoing maintenance. The question is whether you can take a $20k boat and bring it to where it is equivalent to some initially more expensive boat for less than it would cost to just buy the more expensive boat. And only you can answer that.
Personally I wouldn't touch it because I've seen projects grow exponentially. But I gained that knowledge (maybe I should say "skepticism") by tackling projects that I shouldn't have. As long as you don't value your labour too highly a project can be a great learning experience, no matter how it turns out. And $20k isn't a lot to pay for an education, as long as that initial $20k doesn't turn into $120k spent on what ends up being a $20k boat. I've already said I wouldn't tackle this but if I was going to my first question would be "can I use it exactly as it is right now?" As long as the answer to that question is yes then you can go slow, learn your way into the project and not risk more than you understand.
Personally I wouldn't touch it because I've seen projects grow exponentially. But I gained that knowledge (maybe I should say "skepticism") by tackling projects that I shouldn't have. As long as you don't value your labour too highly a project can be a great learning experience, no matter how it turns out. And $20k isn't a lot to pay for an education, as long as that initial $20k doesn't turn into $120k spent on what ends up being a $20k boat. I've already said I wouldn't tackle this but if I was going to my first question would be "can I use it exactly as it is right now?" As long as the answer to that question is yes then you can go slow, learn your way into the project and not risk more than you understand.
psneeld
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If you are handy and creative and don't listen to the "get an expert to do it" posters....
There's no way you will spend more than about 50K on pieces and parts (except engine and generator).
I bought a troubled Albin...spenk $57K for a new motor and the rest was framework. When I'm done I will have done a $30K bottom job for 2K, replaced all the teak decks with glass, completely redone flybridge, new sanitary system with new heads, redo of the fresh water plumbing, new fuel tanks, diesel heating system new swim platform, 16 new aluminum windows, 50 amp service upgrade, new electronics, carpeting...and a few more things...so the boats gonna be like new...but may only meet really fancy workboat standards...not mega-yacht standards...good enough for me and most people...all for under 30K so she'll be better than new in many respects, with a 200 hour new Lehman 135 and rebuilt 8KW Westerbeake genset. So she'll com in a tad over 85K spread over several years and be EXACTLY the way I want her.
There's no way you will spend more than about 50K on pieces and parts (except engine and generator).
I bought a troubled Albin...spenk $57K for a new motor and the rest was framework. When I'm done I will have done a $30K bottom job for 2K, replaced all the teak decks with glass, completely redone flybridge, new sanitary system with new heads, redo of the fresh water plumbing, new fuel tanks, diesel heating system new swim platform, 16 new aluminum windows, 50 amp service upgrade, new electronics, carpeting...and a few more things...so the boats gonna be like new...but may only meet really fancy workboat standards...not mega-yacht standards...good enough for me and most people...all for under 30K so she'll be better than new in many respects, with a 200 hour new Lehman 135 and rebuilt 8KW Westerbeake genset. So she'll com in a tad over 85K spread over several years and be EXACTLY the way I want her.
motion30
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I look at it this way It cost as much to replace a system or part that is "not to bad" as it does to replace a part that is total junk Another way to look at it is it is the same cost to replace a cushion that is completely torn and raged out as It does to relace one that is just faded and ugly
Fighterpilot
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The problem I have with all of this is the fact that the $76,000 boat could have major problems as well, and you have a lot more money invested to start with even at the contract price of $65000. . It is an old boat. A survey, done by your surveyor is a must, and even than you could get burned. There are surveyors and than there are suveyors.
Your use was for living aboard. If you aren't going to do a lot of cruising but mostly stay in port than the ship requirements are easier than those that cruise and go to sea often.
I replaced a 105 gal. fuel tank for $1000 dollars.
Your use was for living aboard. If you aren't going to do a lot of cruising but mostly stay in port than the ship requirements are easier than those that cruise and go to sea often.
I replaced a 105 gal. fuel tank for $1000 dollars.
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The information you gave in your original post gives very little insight into how you would proceed on a project like this. Your answer above provides some clarity.
By installing more tanks to hold fuel and leaving the old ones in place you have retained the ability to run the engines and generator but reduced the utility of the vessel by consuming valuable space. I think it diminishes the value of the boat because now a buyer who wants a Marine Trader has to undo that and fix the bad tank(s) too. Do enough Bandaid repairs and the boat becomes unsellable. Change systems and make them unsafe it becomes uninsurable and you may not be able to buy dockage at a marina.
Hire someone who knows more than you whether it is a surveyor or a capable friend who has done it himself to look at the boat with you. Someone who will listen to what you want to do and put knowing eyes on the boat then make your decision based on what you learn.
FF
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but $5k ish will get me a alt to pulling tanks thru a hole in the hull.
Who ever told you this does not have any concept on fiberglass boat construction.
Chop a hole in the side is a STEEL boat technique , probably the death of a GRP boat.
If your not a perfectionist the simplest technique is to NOT repair replace every less than perfect area.
There are loads of low cost, low time methods for patching to a useable standard , rather than attempting some yachtie form of perfection.
Do you want to simply spend years USING the boat, or is boat repair and expense your new hobby?
Who ever told you this does not have any concept on fiberglass boat construction.
Chop a hole in the side is a STEEL boat technique , probably the death of a GRP boat.
If your not a perfectionist the simplest technique is to NOT repair replace every less than perfect area.
There are loads of low cost, low time methods for patching to a useable standard , rather than attempting some yachtie form of perfection.
Do you want to simply spend years USING the boat, or is boat repair and expense your new hobby?
psneeld
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JohnP
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Project boats intrique me. However if you are going to put all this time and effort and $$$ make sure this is pretty much your forever boat. Otherwise you will lose interest as things become difficult or you determine the boat is not for you.
At that point you will have to give it away along with everything you bought for it.
As far as tanks go you should cut them up and clear them out, removing as much crap from the engine compartment as possible. Clean it completely and paint it fresh and new. At that point you can reinstall any equiptment that proves to be usable--replace as much as you can with new. Wiring, plumbing, pumps, waterheaters whatever.
You can use smaller tanks, leave room to double them up later if you need more range.
If the boat has leaks and damaged wood work all over, it will be a long time before it becomes a liveaboard and not a workshop.
If I were doing this much work on a boat I would perfer to have one with a more consistant build quality, such as a Grandbanks, There are lots of 42s on Yachtworld and some are priced low. It would seem you could get one for 50 or 60k.
Although you could still have a project boat, I don't think the interiors get anywhere near as bad as some of the Marine Traders. If you buy a quality boat the money you spend restoring may not be wasted.
My 2cents-- JohnP
At that point you will have to give it away along with everything you bought for it.
As far as tanks go you should cut them up and clear them out, removing as much crap from the engine compartment as possible. Clean it completely and paint it fresh and new. At that point you can reinstall any equiptment that proves to be usable--replace as much as you can with new. Wiring, plumbing, pumps, waterheaters whatever.
You can use smaller tanks, leave room to double them up later if you need more range.
If the boat has leaks and damaged wood work all over, it will be a long time before it becomes a liveaboard and not a workshop.
If I were doing this much work on a boat I would perfer to have one with a more consistant build quality, such as a Grandbanks, There are lots of 42s on Yachtworld and some are priced low. It would seem you could get one for 50 or 60k.
Although you could still have a project boat, I don't think the interiors get anywhere near as bad as some of the Marine Traders. If you buy a quality boat the money you spend restoring may not be wasted.
My 2cents-- JohnP
psneeld
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While I agree with much of your thought...it is possible to live aboard and redo a lot of the boat as I am...unless the yard where you are prohibits major work while in the water and most don't let you live aboard when on the hard (that's a PIA anyway
).I was astounded at the number of GBs that have dropped so far and so fast in price...there weren't but a handful when I was looking 2 years ago...but it didn't really matter to me as I don't like the layout. It would have been major surgery just to get the galley out of the main salon which as a liveaboard i just couldn't live with.
twiisted71
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It has been mentioned many times before and I've been trying to get a friend of mine to listen to this logic as well,,,,,,if its a live-a-board you're after consider a houseboat. It will be a lot more user friendly than a trawler, and is usually cheaper by a good margin for the same size hull but more useable space. There are lots of options out there, Bluewater, old Pearson 43' (went to look at one a week or so ago, neat boat idea), Chris Craft made a 36/38'er that looks like a HB and they made a 50ish' catamaran that lends itself well for this purpose.
edited after going to look these up. The '80s Catalina line are the HB looking CCs in the 36-38' range. The CC catamaran is actually 57'
edited after going to look these up. The '80s Catalina line are the HB looking CCs in the 36-38' range. The CC catamaran is actually 57'
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psneeld
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Excellent advice..hard for some newcomers though to know the seakeeping advantages/disadvantages between all the options...but they need to understand their limits and not just "dream" when it comes to picking.
JohnP
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The Pearson43 I think it is called a Portsmouth is a great candidate for a liveaboard.
It has a trawler feel and perfectly ok for the type of cruising a lot of us do.
JohnP
psneeld--I agree the layout of your albin 40 with the galley down is ideal.
The salon is open as a living room so comfortable seating is possible.
GB, Used this on their 42 motoryacht and their 46-- Doubt if you could fine any of these for less than 100k
Another plus for your Albin is the centerline queen, only the later GB42s have this and again the price goes up.
JohnP
It has a trawler feel and perfectly ok for the type of cruising a lot of us do.
JohnP
psneeld--I agree the layout of your albin 40 with the galley down is ideal.
The salon is open as a living room so comfortable seating is possible.
GB, Used this on their 42 motoryacht and their 46-- Doubt if you could fine any of these for less than 100k
Another plus for your Albin is the centerline queen, only the later GB42s have this and again the price goes up.
JohnP
psneeld
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Thanks ...and very astute as to why I wound up with a "Buy-a-Wreck" Albin instead of many others...
And it will probably have gas engine(s) for dramatically lower purchase and maintenance (at the expense of operating cost), and you can sometimes use household furniture because of the squared-off spaces.
psneeld seems to have dealt with the process of living on a boat while undergoing renovation, but it's something you really need to think through - it's very hard to keep a major renovation from impacting the entire boat.
The biggest issue facing the cheap liveaboard might be acceptable moorage. The $20K bargain is competing for the same slip as the $200K Grand Banks.
psneeld
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True...but the same goes for a house..I've been through both and yes flexibility is the key.
You took the words out of my mouth about the appliances and furniture!
Most people see trawlers/sailboats and dream of tropical islands when the reality is that 90 or better percent will never venture more than a couple hundred miles from their dirt roots.
Fotoman
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All very good advice.
The PO of my boat installed new tanks and left the old ones. I cut them up and redid the entire bilge, including plumbing, electric, paint, shelves, etc. Glad I did for my personnal enjoyment and major selling point when the time comes.
This idea of chopping a hole in the hull sounds like the MOABI (mother of all bad ideas).
You are on the hard racking up yard fees. If you are living aboard you are climbing a PITA ladder. The tank(s) surely sit on a structural member. The exterior will involve cutting at least one rub rail. The resulting patch will never equal the original - and it will be obvious from the outside. There is no way IMO this will be a success.
It's better to R&R an engine (and clean up the ER). Or add a hatch over the tank (has issues as well but might add some value).
Cheaper approach would be remove baffles and insert bladder. Ghetto approach is to POR15 the interior of the tank.
Moving the tank location is hugely problematic. . Will affect trim at the very least. I can't decide if this is worse than chopping a hole in the hull, but at least you could do it in the water.
Or remove the fuel tanks completely and put in a wine cellar!
You are on the hard racking up yard fees. If you are living aboard you are climbing a PITA ladder. The tank(s) surely sit on a structural member. The exterior will involve cutting at least one rub rail. The resulting patch will never equal the original - and it will be obvious from the outside. There is no way IMO this will be a success.
It's better to R&R an engine (and clean up the ER). Or add a hatch over the tank (has issues as well but might add some value).
Cheaper approach would be remove baffles and insert bladder. Ghetto approach is to POR15 the interior of the tank.
Moving the tank location is hugely problematic. . Will affect trim at the very least. I can't decide if this is worse than chopping a hole in the hull, but at least you could do it in the water.
Or remove the fuel tanks completely and put in a wine cellar!
FYI when the tanks come out of the hull via a cutout it is in the bottom not in the hull side. Depending on the level of finish to the hull exterior it may not even be visible through the normally rough texture of antifouling paint when completed. It is a little hard to wrap your head around but consider if you accidently knocked a hole in your otherwise good boat. You wouldn't throw it away you would fix it. Same goes for a hole someone intentionally puts in a boat. Fixed properly it does the job
I agree with the comments that a houseboat would probably better for what the OP has stated are his needs but when I took a look earlier today on Yachtworld (searched houseboats 35 to 45 feet $15K to $35K) most were twin gas stern-drive. That is all good except the extra maintenance of risers and manifolds every five to seven years and in water storage of stern-drives (they make really good anodes). If he could find a single or twin freshwater cooled gas or diesel inboard V-drive that would knock out a large part of the maintenance costs and provide the benefits stated by previous posters.
I agree with the comments that a houseboat would probably better for what the OP has stated are his needs but when I took a look earlier today on Yachtworld (searched houseboats 35 to 45 feet $15K to $35K) most were twin gas stern-drive. That is all good except the extra maintenance of risers and manifolds every five to seven years and in water storage of stern-drives (they make really good anodes). If he could find a single or twin freshwater cooled gas or diesel inboard V-drive that would knock out a large part of the maintenance costs and provide the benefits stated by previous posters.
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