Source of my overheating?

Edelweiss · Aug 25, 2012

Blue Heron said:
Well finally got the parts and the Heat Exchanger removed and replaced. Totally corroded and root of the problem. Holding all coolant for now. ....................
no matter, so far purring solid perkins and new Heat Exchangers,, will report in a couple of days.

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Nice job on the exhaust riser and elbow. Pricey but a good long term investment. Looking at your pic's, you're exhaust appears to be different than my 6.354's. Mine are 1976 are your's newer or Turbo's? Reason I'm asking is I will be ordering one from MESA and don't want to get the wrong one if there are different styles exhaust Risers. :facepalm:

Also is this you're heat exchanger?
NA001545 4" Diameter Flange 354 C.I.D. 6 Cyl
(Sendure# 1814-3-5)

Blue Heron · Aug 25, 2012

Edelweiss,
My 6.354, are 1985 built. My Heat exchanger looks like this:

Blue Heron · Aug 25, 2012

This could account for the huge differance in each of ours coolant capacity. This sucker took 4 gallons of coolant after pulling the HX and risers..

Mark will order what you need to fit. All he will need is the info you posted. I took a pic of what I had and needed from him and he made it happen. Yes it is a wise investment, I wont need to ever replace due to corrosion..

Blue Heron · Aug 25, 2012

Thanks Forklift.

I motored over for my haulout put about an hour on the motors between pump out and haul out and it all was good. Temps were awesome.. looking forward to running it and FINALLY using the boat.. now for this damn storm...

Edelweiss · Aug 26, 2012

Blue Heron said:
This could account for the huge differance in each of ours coolant capacity. This sucker took 4 gallons of coolant after pulling the HX and risers..

Mark will order what you need to fit. All he will need is the info you posted. I took a pic of what I had and needed from him and he made it happen. Yes it is a wise investment, I wont need to ever replace due to corrosion..

====================================

That's what I thought when I saw your pics. Mine is a totally different setup both exhaust and heat exchanger, I'm glad I asked. Yeah same with the stainless exhaust manifolds he made for me. They look like the day they were made.

Thanks
Larry B

JAT · Aug 29, 2012

Edelweiss said:
====================================

That's what I thought when I saw your pics. Mine is a totally different setup both exhaust and heat exchanger, I'm glad I asked. Yeah same with the stainless exhaust manifolds he made for me. They look like the day they were made.

Thanks
Larry B

Larry, your manifolds and elbows probably look like min if you have the 6.354 naturals.... Below is a picture of them....not the best picture, but they are from MESA also. Mark there is good at what he does....and their workmanship is great.

The parts aren't cheap....but they are far less than original Perkins parts, which are no longer available....

Rob

ben2go · Aug 29, 2012

JAT said:
Larry, your manifolds and elbows probably look like min if you have the 6.354 naturals.... Below is a picture of them....not the best picture, but they are from MESA also. Mark there is good at what he does....and their workmanship is great.

The parts aren't cheap....but they are far less than original Perkins parts, which are no longer available....

Rob

I know where I am going for parts.

Edelweiss · Aug 30, 2012

JAT said:
Larry, your manifolds and elbows probably look like min if you have the 6.354 naturals.... Below is a picture of them....not the best picture, but they are from MESA also. Mark there is good at what he does....and their workmanship is great.

The parts aren't cheap....but they are far less than original Perkins parts, which are no longer available....

Rob

__________________________________________

Yes, exactly the same. I was thinking of painting them "gold" instead of Perkins blue though. I have a buddy with 6.354 n/a's and he keeps asking me when I'm going to repower with Cummins. I suspect he would like to salvage my manifolds? :blush:

Have you heard of anyone else other than MESA making them for the NA's. I haven't, other than a boatyard shops who threw one together in their shop. As they said, "It ain't pretty, but it will work just fine." I couldn't believe they even showed it to me. It was built like a Russian tank!!

LB

Blue Heron · Aug 30, 2012

LB,
I looked and TAD diesel still sells the manicooler but not the elbows. MESA is the only mfg I have found.

Edelweiss · Aug 30, 2012

Blue Heron said:
LB,
I looked and TAD diesel still sells the manicooler but not the elbows. MESA is the only mfg I have found.

-------------------------------------------------

Yeah, TAD sells the Barr exhaust manicooler which will only attach to the Turbo 6.354 head. (look at the bolt pattern on the exhaust ports. . . it backwards and a couple of extra bolt holes) plus the outlet end is sized for a turbo, not an elbow. I guess those design changes were how Perkins kept people from slapping a turbo on a n/a engine.

Larry B

JAT · Sep 1, 2012

Edelweiss said:
__________________________________________

Yes, exactly the same. I was thinking of painting them "gold" instead of Perkins blue though. I have a buddy with 6.354 n/a's and he keeps asking me when I'm going to repower with Cummins. I suspect he would like to salvage my manifolds?

Have you heard of anyone else other than MESA making them for the NA's. I haven't, other than a boatyard shops who threw one together in their shop. As they said, "It ain't pretty, but it will work just fine." I couldn't believe they even showed it to me. It was built like a Russian tank!!

LB

I don't know of anyone else who makes the elbows....I know Perkins doesn't anymore....and MESA's Stainless Steel...actually cost less than the Perkin's originals when they were discontinued.... TAD sells the Bowman conversion kits and parts.... TAD for Bowman Heat Exchangers, Manifolds & Oil Coolers, Perkins Bowman Manifold Heat Exchanger Oil Cooler 4.108 for the turbo 6.354's. Though they do also sell a complete conversion kit (Bowman) for the naturals. It costs more than the MESA elbows and manifolds per engine.

Depending on how old your present manifolds are....if they are close to 10 years old....they are on their downhill run...more than likely. You should have inspection plates on the top of the manifold....so you can check them out...and FWIW....I was advised by a competent source that "acid washing" the manifold or wet elbows was not a good thing....

Blue Heron · Sep 1, 2012

JAT,

Concur on the acid washing. The PO did it just before I purchased and I think it contributed to the failure of the Manicooler.

TAD no longer sells the Elbows. The only place I could find was MESA. they cost 150.00 each. I went ahead and purchased the raw water EL for the other engine and expect a failure on the HX soon.

The only thing I had to figure out was the studs for the elbows. They dont come with the studs. I ordered machined 2 inch set screws for the raw water EL and 3/8 course studs for the Exhaust Elbow. I had to cut them to 2 inch using my dremel. It worked out just fine. Gaskets are included from TAD.

Edelweiss · Sep 1, 2012

JAT said:
Depending on how old your present manifolds are....if they are close to 10 years old....they are on their downhill run...more than likely. You should have inspection plates on the top of the manifold....so you can check them out...and FWIW....I was advised by a competent source that "acid washing" the manifold or wet elbows was not a good thing....

=========================================
JAT

No, I have already replaced both of my exhaust manifolds with MESA Stainless manifolds (No, top inspection plate). One about 10 years ago and the other two or three years ago. They are still like brand new.

I'm just approaching the time when I need to replace the wet exhaust risers (exhaust elbows) that attach to the exhaust manifolds. Mine are just like yours in your pictures.

Thanks
Larry B

JAT · Sep 1, 2012

Edelweiss said:
=========================================
JAT

No, I have already replaced both of my exhaust manifolds with MESA Stainless manifolds (No, top inspection plate). One about 10 years ago and the other two or three years ago. They are still like brand new.

I'm just approaching the time when I need to replace the wet exhaust risers (exhaust elbows) that attach to the exhaust manifolds. Mine are just like yours in your pictures.

Thanks
Larry B

Larry....I think I posted inaccurately.... but them maybe not.... The inspection plate I was referring to was on the top of the Perkins originals.

I'm hoping my stainless manifolds and elbows last as long as Mark said they would!

Question....have you had any problem finding a correct length zinc for the manifold?

Edelweiss · Sep 2, 2012

JAT said:
Larry.

Question....have you had any problem finding a correct length zinc for the manifold?

--------------------------------------
Yes, the first manifold MESA made for me had a very long skinny zink port and I couldn't find anything like it. I finally had a shop grind the port down, redrill and retap the hole for 3/8" npt (I think) whatever the Perkins water cooler zink plug is? Anyway they all use No. 1 Camp zinks now.

LB

RickB · Sep 2, 2012

JAT said:
I was advised by a competent source that "acid washing" the manifold or wet elbows was not a good thing....

Depends on how you look at it. If you don't acid wash or thoroughly mechanically clean those parts, salt and corrosion will build up and block the flow of water and eventually cause overheating and very expensive engine damage.

On the other hand, regular chemical cleaning with a mild acid cleaner removes deposits and keeps the internal surfaces clean which improves heat transfer.

A mild acid cleaning will remove very little base metal. I doubt if anyone outside a lab would even be able to measure the material removed by a proper cleaning. It will remove a great deal of corrosion products and deposits caused by poor heat transfer and water standing for long periods in the castings.

The idea that acid cleaning caused a failure is absurd. Judging by the photos, it wasn't even enough to remove a few weeks of the years of corrosion and junk that had built up and created the condition that lead to the failure. If acid created a leak, it did so it by removing the corrosion products and mineral deposits that started the destruction of the manifold and piping to begin with. If those parts had been kept clean by regular flushing with a mild acid cleaner they would probably be in near factory new condition today.

Blue Heron · Sep 2, 2012

Sea Trialing today. We'll see if any damage was done from the overheat and how the temps perform as well as holding coolant.

Blue Heron · Sep 3, 2012

Well, my detractors will be sad to know that we passed Sea Trials with flying colors. NO HEAD DAMAGE, NO WARPED PISTONS OR CYLINDERS so sorry guys... to the well wishers thanks for the encouragement.
Problem: Coolant observed leaking into exhaust. Engine Overheat Alarm sounded.
Diagnosis: Manicooler, Heat exchanger failure. Elbows corroded beyond service ability.
Action: Ordered new Manicooler from TAD Diesels. New Exhaust Elbows from MESA engineering
Sea Trial results: Ran Boat for 3 hours at varying RPM. At 1300 RPM and 6 kts on a WINDY choppy bay we observed Port engine - oil pressure was 55 psi, Temp was 187f. Stbd engine - oil 55 psi and Temp 185f.
at 2200 rpm and 9 kts - Port oil pressure was 60 psi and temp was 198f and Stbd - 57 psi and 190f.

so overall a successful repair. Wanted you all to have the feedback and if this happens to you, it doesnt mean the end of the world or certain engine replacement like some would tell you.

Giggitoni · Sep 3, 2012

Sounds great! Always a good thing to dodge the bullet. Congratulations!

FF · Sep 5, 2012

NO HEAD DAMAGE, NO WARPED PISTONS OR CYLINDERS

You KNOW this by direct inspection , or because the engine "seems" just fine?

Blue Heron · Sep 5, 2012

"seems" fine. ? Whats your point FF?
Compression check good.
Temps and Oil Pressure at operation specs.
No leaks or loss of coolant.
Vaccuum checks good.
Thermal Inspection with IR good.
Analysis so so far indicates NO DAMAGE.

I'm good with it.

expat · Sep 5, 2012

good work BH. far to many pessamists on here if you ask me.

swampu · Sep 5, 2012

Blue, I think the "pessamists" are just guys who have been though it and didn't have good luck. The mechanics of things are just that. If something gets hot it could be engine block 20001 and 20002 and one will warp and the other will not. There is a lot involved in metalurgy and a lot could depend on friday afternoon block vs. tuesday morning block. Glad everything is working well and the only thing I would do is maybe an oil change after about 100 hours just to check for any "funny" stuff.

RickB · Sep 6, 2012

expat said:
far to many pessamists on here if you ask me.

It doesn't take a "pessamist" to point out that taking an obviously damaged engine with a history of overheating and visible coolant loss out for a "sea trial" is a really bad idea.

Continuing to run it until it overheats and apparently seizes is beyond the realm of "bad ideas."

Don't shoot the messenger just because it makes the recipient look really stupid.

If an engine seizes twice there is a very high probability that it has suffered damage that will show up sooner or later, probably sooner. If it were my engine I would not plan any long trips unless I borescoped it and performed regular (very short period - 25 hours or so) oil analyses over the next few hundred hours.

Pessimistic, no, just knowledgeable and experienced.

sunchaser · Sep 6, 2012

Blue Heron

Perkins made very tough engines. No matter what the source of the overheat, the standard boat, truck, loader or genset test is to run the engine (in gear!!) at full rated RPM for a period of time - say 5 minutes to see how it performs. If any overheat is present or it sounds funny follow rickB's advice and bore scope or otherwise check it out. This is called diesel 101.

RickB · Sep 6, 2012

sunchaser said:
the standard boat, truck, loader or genset test is to run the engine (in gear!!) at full rated RPM for a period of time - say 5 minutes to see how it performs.

That is a bit short to determine much other than the engine can still reach rated power or not. A speed and power trial should last at the very minimum 10 minutes and be performed twice on reciprocal courses to ensure the load is averaged out for wind and waves.

If the engine cannot take full power for 10 minutes without overheating or worse then at least you know what you have and can deal with it properly rather than institute a faith based maintenance system.

Larry M · Sep 6, 2012

...I would not plan any long trips unless I borescoped it and performed regular (very short period - 25 hours or so) oil analyses over the next few hundred hours...

Never having the need to have an engine bore-scoped (that I know of), in this case, what would be involved and how much in general $$ or time wise required?

Click to expand...

RickB · Sep 6, 2012

Larry M said:
Never having the need to have an engine bore-scoped (that I know of), in this case, what would be involved and how much in general $$ or time wise required?

Click to expand...

Scoping a single 6 cylinder engine shouldn't take more than 2 hours or cost very much beyond the shop's labor rate, travel, and gaskets unless a bad injector is found.

The mechanic will pull the injectors and look at each cylinder and piston while video recording the view through the scope. If there is cylinder damage such as scoring from lack of lubrication or micro-seizures resulting from overheating it will be obvious. A good scope will be able to turn upward and view the valves as well.

It is money well spent and something we do frequently on generators because they often suffer from a similar type of operation as a recreational trawler engine. It is much much less expensive than a tear down to inspect the top end.

Larry M · Sep 6, 2012

Thanks.

Blue Heron · Sep 6, 2012

I find no need to Bore-scope MY engine... I started this post.. I reported the progress of my repair. I DO NOT intend to Bore-scope... dont need to.

Source of my overheating?

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