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Old 04-30-2014, 12:18 PM   #21
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The Cockpit is added

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Originally Posted by Larry M View Post
Below is a marketing brochure from Gulfstar. Interesting the length vs what the guy selling it is saying (assuming I have the correct boat).

Gulfstar created many Trawler models but the largest production model was the 53'. Less than 10 models were reportedly built between 1975 and 1976. The construction had a trawler body built onto the deep round- bildge and full-displacement hull that was used for the Gulfstar 53' Motorsailer (Sailboat). The GS 53 Trawler is reported to be very sea-friendly with an easy motion due to the low center of gravity - stabilized in part by the lower location of the fuel tanks.
The GS 53 Trawler was fitted with twin 160hp Perkins diesels rated at 6 g.p.h . when running in the 8-9 knot range.

Belowdecks is a 3-stateroom layout. It came with a choice of twin-berths or a walkaround double in the aft cabin. It has a very spacious dinette and galley area and features a teak interior.
General Specs:
Length: 53' 2"
Length WL 47' 3"
Beam 15'
Draft 4' 6"
Weight 42000 lbs.
Clearance 14'
Fuel 1000 gals.
Water 300 gals.
Headroom 6' 5"
The cockpit is added, the boat without the cockpit has no place for water entry except through the pilot house doors. Almost like a submarine. My neighbor has a Gulfstar similar, I'm not sure it's a 53 or slightly shorter. Nice boat to hang out on. This one never leaves the dock. I've been trying to get him to run down to coast with me.
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Old 04-30-2014, 12:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Scary View Post
The cockpit is added, the boat without the cockpit has no place for water entry except through the pilot house doors. Almost like a submarine. My neighbor has a Gulfstar similar, I'm not sure it's a 53 or slightly shorter. Nice boat to hang out on. This one never leaves the dock. I've been trying to get him to run down to coast with me.
Thanks. I missed the cockpit extension. It'll be interesting to see what it eventually sells for. It's already been reduced 100K according to one of the adds.
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Old 04-30-2014, 01:35 PM   #23
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Turns turtle, that's a stretch. Modifications like the ones seen in this boat are done all the time and boats are not flipping over right and left. But all you'd have to do is request to see the stability test results done after the modifications. If there is not one require one be done prior to purchase.
Capt....With Respect......

No one expects ferry's to turn over suddenly on a calm day either. But it happens and hundreds of kids drown. The part that frustrates me is that this is foreseeable and preventable, yet we keep getting it wrong.

The typical US powerboat of 50-60' length is 17'-18' wide and of hard-chined form. If you have a 50-60 footer with 17' beam and hard chines, I have no problem with adding a permanent hard top on the flying bridge. Just make it as light as possible (foam cored with light plastic windows). I will seriously question also adding a big hard-bottom inflatable, and another dinghy, and a crane, and a sun-deck top, and a mast and antennas as well!

But this Gulfstar is only 15' wide, a round-bottomed sailboat form, and originally relied on fuel for stability! Hopefully anyone can see that once its burnt the fuel no longer adds to stability.

The hard-chined form is very stable at low heel angles, which is why people like it. You step aboard and the boat heels a bit but corrects quickly back upright and stops. Very reassuring but can be tiring at sea.. The round bottomed form is not as stable at low angles, you step aboard and she may continue to roll down underfoot, then roll back beyond upright, then back, and slowly damp out the rolling. Not so reassuring......but more comfortable at sea.

The typical hard chined boat may run out of stability at 60-70 degrees heel. This is rarely a problem because the hard chine form snaps her back upright at low heel angles. But the round bottomed form does not, she just keeps on heeling. And with the high center of gravity the modified Gulfstar may run out of stability at 50 or so degrees heel. That is a scary thought.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:15 PM   #24
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Greetings,
Mr. CB11. Thanks for the link. As I suspected, lipstick on a pig and the simple fact the ER appears to be a shambles negates Mr. CK's comment of "...the "over the top" attention to the minutest detail,..." IMO. Wouldn't go near it.

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Pretty critical, I think the ER is in decent shape. Obviously you don't have Detroits in your boat like I do. I try and keep it spiffy but after any cruise my ER looks like a crime scene but that's alright everything has a nice sheen of oil keeping everything protected.
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Old 04-30-2014, 08:02 PM   #25
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Greetings,
Mr. k. Yup, for $1/4 million I think I can be critical. Given that the rest of the boat appears to be top notch and VERY appealing it suggests to me that the owner's priorities may lie more in "eye candy" than mechanical fitness. I would think $4K to $5K spent on detailing the ER would easily match the wow factor of the rest of the vessel and I don't think the extra $$ would have been a very large percentage of the overall refit costs but that's just me. Nope, not Detroits, Lehmans.
When I put on one of my Armani's, I always change my underwear. Work overalls, not so much.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:32 AM   #26
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Capt....With Respect......


That is a scary thought.
And that is why I said get a stability test. You can do one with full tanks and one with empty.

I would be surprised if the naval architect who drew up that Gulfstar counted on removable weight like fuel to make up the majority of the boats ballast for stability.

Personally I'd be concerned how it is at anchor. Not because it could go over but because I bet it could be very rolly in anything but a very calm spot.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:39 AM   #27
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Sometimes boat owners have good money and bad ideas.

This guy had lot's of both.
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Old 05-01-2014, 01:18 PM   #28
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Tad-interesting point on the use of the fuel load for ballast. On our Krogen 58', with 18'+ beam, and very soft chined, there is 7,000 lbs of ballast in the keel. I would be worried not only about the stability when close to empty, but also the changing stability as the fuel load decreases. If on an extended run in rough water, having the stability characteristics change as fuel is burned is not a comforting thought!
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Old 05-01-2014, 01:32 PM   #29
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Greetings,
I think we carry 8,000 lbs of ballast.
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Old 05-01-2014, 01:35 PM   #30
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I believe we carry 3000.
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Old 05-01-2014, 02:05 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Bill11 View Post

I would be surprised if the naval architect who drew up that Gulfstar counted on removable weight like fuel to make up the majority of the boats ballast for stability.
There was no Naval Architect involved, design is credited to the company president, Vince Lazzara. And in 1973 (pre-pc) I would be surprised if there was any stability study at all. In those days it was "put it in the water and see what happens".

To quote the Gulfstar ad in post #20, "the interior space is utilized for fuel and water tankage below the the waterline. This results in a much lower center of gravity than is possible in a typical powerboat hull. "
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Old 05-01-2014, 02:49 PM   #32
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Tad-interesting point on the use of the fuel load for ballast. On our Krogen 58', with 18'+ beam, and very soft chined, there is 7,000 lbs of ballast in the keel. I would be worried not only about the stability when close to empty, but also the changing stability as the fuel load decreases. If on an extended run in rough water, having the stability characteristics change as fuel is burned is not a comforting thought!
It is a serious issue, changes in loading must be considered in any reasonable stability study. In commercial (passenger) vessels at least three load cases are analyzed; Light Ship (no passengers, freight, crew, or consumables aboard), Full Load (everything and everybody aboard, all tanks full), and what's called Arrival Condition (full passengers and crew, 10% tanks). Typically the Arrival Condition is the worst case when stability is least.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:52 PM   #33
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There was no Naval Architect involved, design is credited to the company president, Vince Lazzara. And in 1973 (pre-pc) I would be surprised if there was any stability study at all. In those days it was "put it in the water and see what happens".

To quote the Gulfstar ad in post #20, "the interior space is utilized for fuel and water tankage below the the waterline. This results in a much lower center of gravity than is possible in a typical powerboat hull. "
Yes and he worked with Ted Hood on some designs. Who was a naval architect. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that he looked the designs over.

As to quote #20, that proves nothing. It doesn't state that the tanks completely take the place of permanent ballast. A number of vessels have fuel and water tanks at or below the waterline. And they don't become unsafe as the fluids are used.

People can nit pick this boat all they want. And it could have stability issues. But to say or imply it's some how dangerous due to the modifications made to it with no more evidence than some pictures and a video is bit irresponsible.
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:06 PM   #34
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Uh, CaptBill, to paraphrase the old EF Hutton ad, "When Tad Roberts speaks you'd better listen."
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:22 PM   #35
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Most of this conversation is directed at the basic design before the owner made a 3 story building on top of the questionable beginnings complete w heavy stuff on the upper decks.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:36 PM   #36
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Greetings,
Mr. m. I quite like the original design as shown in the sales brochure (post #20). Quite "sleek" looking. As noted "...stabilized in part by the lower location of the fuel tanks." depending on levels of fuel for stability is questionable.
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:18 PM   #37
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Adding heavy stuff up high sure worked out fine on the ferry "Sewol"...
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:59 PM   #38
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Uh, CaptBill, to paraphrase the old EF Hutton ad, "When Tad Roberts speaks you'd better listen."
I am. But doesn't mean I can't question as well. :-)

But while we all know adding weight up high on a boat can be a bad thing. We don't know that in this case a naval architect was not consulted, a stability study wasn't done, ballast wasn't added nor what type and weight materials were used in these modifications. So condemning this boat out of hand seems premature to me, that's all.

I would also think any reputable company that does that kind of work would see to it that any modifications that they did were done right with any stability issues covered so it could not come back to BTITA later in a court of law.

But I could be completely wrong and the vessel is a death trap.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:36 PM   #39
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I'd estimate at least 3000 lbs added to top and likely 8 feet above CG. From my sailing days we'd fight for getting every pound we could as low as possible when storms were brewing. Not to mention keeping the vessel as upright as possible so it would sail faster.

On our vessel I move about 200 pounds of stuff from the FB DOWN 10 to 12 feet when serious cruising is to occur. Boating 101 .
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:46 PM   #40
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I'm in the "cut all add-on stuff off of the top and you'd have a pretty nice boat" crowd.

I hope Marin sees that fly bridge.


(Hi Marin!)
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