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Old 12-08-2013, 10:00 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
What would a new KK42 cost now days, somewhere around $500K or more?
Actually, closer to a million for a new KK44 which they are now called and of course, 2 feet longer. This is what the dealer told me at the last Seattle boat show. Ouch!!

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Old 12-08-2013, 10:51 PM   #42
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Yeah, I thought the same thing, Kevin. Maybe if I were finished with my own boat, I could talk my Admiral into it. It could work, but you'd really have to "commit" to the 150K budget as if it was going to be that much, and not wimp-out in the end.
Thats the problem with most project boats.

Good people buy them with good intentions.

They think they can DIY the boat, when even if they have the skills, they do not have the time.

Or they do not have the cash budget to do the refit. They piece the refit together a little at a time and it costs much more than it could.

The way to take this boat on, is to figure out worst case the things you know are an issue. Then plan on gutting the engine room and starting over. New tanks, new everything.

Its a whole lot cheaper to do the project that way than piecemealing together a project, and having to pay to rip out things you just paid to put in, so you can access things like tanks, etc...

I think I'm pretty close at $150K.

Someone buying a boat like this thinking they'll be good to go with a 20K bottom job is more than likely going to get a good education in boat maintenance reality 101
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:55 PM   #43
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Ok, so we've seen several responses indicating once the repairs have been completed you no longer have a blue water boat to once the repairs are completed you have a good as new KK 42. I would say If you end up with a good as new boat with 150 - 180k total in it you have a good, make that a very-good deal. I guess where I'm going with this is what do you have, a true to spec KK 42 boat or a dockside condo?
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:29 PM   #44
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IMO it depends...

Current 1980's vintage boats are listed roughly $150-180K in used condition. If this boat can be made whole and re powered, tanked etc for roughly $150K you'll have an as-new KK42. Newer vintage 44's are in the $600K+ range.

This isn't a house you're gonna flip. If you're in the market for a KK42 long term and don't like what you see on the current market and have the pocketbook it can be a great opportunity to have one your way.

Sometimes we try to rationalize something that is irrational to start with. Boats are not rational. My previous owner lost his butt refitting it and subsequently selling it to me less than a year later. That was not his plan though, he refit for a long term hold. Life dealt him a harsh hand so he sold for what the market would bear. That could happen on this KK42 or any other boat for that matter.

Only you can decide if it fits your plans and budget. That applies to any boat.
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Old 12-10-2013, 04:49 PM   #45
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The only question I have is will you have a blue water boat hull or one only fit for a dockside condo once you complete the retrofits?
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:22 PM   #46
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Bluewater, better then original with a modern synthetic core vs balsa and epoxy/vinylester resins vs polyester.
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:49 PM   #47
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That's what I had hoped to hear, I think, now exploratory talks with the CIC.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:39 PM   #48
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The only question I have is will you have a blue water boat hull or one only fit for a dockside condo once you complete the retrofits?
Thats easy. You'd have a new KK42, without argument a fine passagemaker.

In my opinion you'll as others have indicated probably have a tad more into the boat after a total refit than if you bought a very good condition KK42 of that same vintage.

The difference is you'll have the boat YOU want, not what all the previous owners wanted.

You will also have very few surprises after the refit. Don't worry, the surprises will be there, you'll just get to deal with them during the refit.

If you go for this, my advice having been through it, is to not cheap out. Find a full service boat yard, with a large staff, and a project manager you trust. When they call, listen to their advice, and for the most part follow their recommendations.

At any good full service boat yard, the entire crew will take part in the refit process. Your boat will probably be one of just a few full service refits they do that year. The crew will take pride in seeing their labor transform your boat.

Second advice is plan on repowering. Plan on a new generator. People might argue this point but the best part of a total refit is zero time equipment. New hoses, new everything. Research your big decision choices and buy the best.

In the end, you will have for all intent a new boat at a fraction of the price.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:52 PM   #49
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Can someone describe the actual re-coring process? I`m thinking it involves removing all fiberglass on one side of the core, to get at, remove, and replace the core. Followed by fresh fiberglass. If you only do to the waterline, does the soggy core above re-wet below, or is the new core impermeable? Does the re-glassing require controlled conditions of warmth & humidity?
If the numbers stack up I suppose it is feasible economically, but it seems a huge job with an ever present risk of nasty $ surprises. And once you are on the tiger, there is no getting off.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:59 PM   #50
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Can someone describe the actual re-coring process? I`m thinking it involves removing all fiberglass on one side of the core, to get at, remove, and replace the core. Followed by fresh fiberglass. If you only do to the waterline, does the soggy core above re-wet below, or is the new core impermeable? Does the re-glassing require controlled conditions of warmth & humidity?
If the numbers stack up I suppose it is feasible economically, but it seems a huge job with an ever present risk of nasty $ surprises. And once you are on the tiger, there is no getting off.
Depending on the severity of the project, It later could involve can's of solvents, tightly cinched (plastic tie wraps) electrical wiring behind the panel wrapped with tissue paper, all 110 appliances turned up to high, and a quick trip to a place with many witnesses of your whereabouts at the time of the accident, which should take place in oh, 30 minutes. Oops, wrong forum, I thought I was on the _ _ _ _ _ _ Lightening forum.
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:53 AM   #51
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Bluewater, better then original with a modern synthetic core vs balsa and epoxy/vinylester resins vs polyester.
As far as I know Kadey Krogens never had balsa cored hulls. They are foam cored but they eventually abandoned using cores below the waterline. Balsa cores were used on the decks and other parts of the superstructure.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:26 AM   #52
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Steel Hull maintanence problems....ha...ha

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Can someone describe the actual re-coring process? I`m thinking it involves removing all fiberglass on one side of the core, to get at, remove, and replace the core. Followed by fresh fiberglass. If you only do to the waterline, does the soggy core above re-wet below, or is the new core impermeable? Does the re-glassing require controlled conditions of warmth & humidity?
If the numbers stack up I suppose it is feasible economically, but it seems a huge job with an ever present risk of nasty $ surprises. And once you are on the tiger, there is no getting off.
Reading thru this subject thread just had to make me laugh at all of those naysayers that talk about the maintenance issues with modern steel hull construction I've suggested for the Pilgrim redesign.
Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

...so much for those maintenance-free fiberglass hulls....
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:27 AM   #53
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If the numbers stack up I suppose it is feasible economically, but it seems a huge job with an ever present risk of nasty $ surprises. And once you are on the tiger, there is no getting off.


In addition to Bruce's sage advice, for a total rebuild I suggest:
  • Once the budget is made, double the time estimate,
  • add 50% to your best budget forecast,
  • then be faced with owning a resurrected vessel that will not come close to getting top dollar on the resale market.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:37 AM   #54
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In addition to Bruce's sage advice, for a total rebuild I suggest:
  • Once the budget is made, double the time estimate,
  • add 50% to your best budget forecast,
  • then be faced with owning a resurrected vessel that will not come close to getting top dollar on the resale market.

Actually unless you are refitting a sunk or fire damaged vessle, you will be able to sell your refitted vessle for top dollar when compared to other vessles of the same model in its age class.

You will not be able to sell it for what you have in it, but thats typical of boats

You will not be able to sell it for as much as a newer vessle of its caliber.

Having been through it, I can say that a total refit provides a very much new vessle experience for the owner at a fraction of the price.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:40 AM   #55
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...so much for those maintenance free fiberglass hulls....
Who said maintenance free?

The early KK cored/composite hulls were, ahem, an experiment that KK abandoned. So did SeaRay. Most Westports have composite/cored hulls too, but with hopefully better results as time rolls on.

Steel you say Brian, well I can tell you first hand of a Feadship steel hull that failed survey due to a very small area of internal rust and corrosion around the shaft tube. The owner took a very large discount to sell this one - much more than the cost of repairs.

Over time, yacht quality builds that suffer hull corrosion or FRP issues get nicked. That is why a well maintained, or better yet meticulously maintained vessel, from a well respected builder/designer is highly sought after.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:53 AM   #56
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Who said maintenance free?

The early KK cored/composite hulls were, ahem, an experiment that KK abandoned. So did SeaRay. Most Westports have composite/cored hulls too, but with hopefully better results as time rolls on.

Steel you say Brian, well I can tell you first hand of a Feadship steel hull that failed survey due to a very small area of internal rust and corrosion around the shaft tube. The owner took a very large discount to sell this one - much more than the cost of repairs.

Over time, yacht quality builds that suffer hull corrosion or FRP issues get nicked. That is why a well maintained, or better yet meticulously maintained vessel, from a well respected builder/designer is highly sought after.
Some manufacturers just do a better job of designing and building cored hulls.

In terms of production numbers the Bayliner 45 and 47 pilothouse models I believe come close to or are at the top of large motor yachts, and every one of them had a cored hull using a synthetic foam. Every one, and I have never heard of one of these boats needing a bottom re glass. Probably a thousand boats. Yes, good design, and good construction make all the difference.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:54 AM   #57
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Actually unless you are refitting a sunk or fire damaged vessle, you will be able to sell your refitted vessle for top dollar when compared to other vessles of the same model in its age class.
.
Kevin, I agree with you provided the bones of the vessel are sound to begin with.

Here we are "theoretically" speaking of a soggy hulled vessel from the builder's experimental era that requires resurrection. Or as suggested earlier in the thread - patch it, use it and be happy. Having recently been on a soggy hulled mid eighties KK 42 and also the last KK42 built (solid FRP hull) the differences are night and day. KK came a long way in those 15 or so years.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:23 AM   #58
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Reading thru this subject thread just had to make me laugh at all of those naysayers that talk about the maintenance issues with modern steel hull construction I've suggested for the Pilgrim redesign.
Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

...so much for those maintenance-free fiberglass hulls....
and all those that laugh at "best practice", modern FRG construction...
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:29 AM   #59
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Kevin, I agree with you provided the bones of the vessel are sound to begin with.

Here we are "theoretically" speaking of a soggy hulled vessel from the builder's experimental era that requires resurrection. Or as suggested earlier in the thread - patch it, use it and be happy. Having recently been on a soggy hulled mid eighties KK 42 and also the last KK42 built (solid FRP hull) the differences are night and day. KK came a long way in those 15 or so years.
I do agree with you completely, just having a bit of fun. Too much morning coffee.

If I were to get involved with a boat like the pone referenced in this thread I'd tackle the hull issues first, and wouldn't buy the boat until I had an expert evaluate it.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:31 AM   #60
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In terms of production numbers the Bayliner 45 and 47 pilothouse models I believe come close to or are at the top of large motor yachts, and every one of them had a cored hull using a synthetic foam.
What construction does Meridian do today with hull bottoms, solid or core?

Respect him or not, Pascoe says, "Buying a cored bottom boat in my opinion is little more than a roll of the dice."
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