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Old 09-22-2015, 07:30 PM   #21
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Old 09-23-2015, 05:04 PM   #22
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:55 AM   #23
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City: Willsboro Bay Marina
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If you are thinking about a special boat to travel in or whatever you want....that has it all this is the one! You owe it to yourself to check this one out!


We are planning to travel the Erie Canal next boating season.
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Old 09-30-2015, 12:10 PM   #24
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Take a $100,000 boat and put $30,000 in maintenance and repairs and end up with a marketable boat with a value or $100,000.


I assume the gear and equipment is working. A non functioning item reduces the value. Repairing or replacing doesn't add to the value, it only restores it. Take the $100,000 boat and don't fix, repair or replace and you're down to $70,000. Fix, repair, replace and your back to $100,000.


This math is the equivalent of starting at $100,000, repairing/replacing for $30,000 and adjusting valuation to $130,000. It simply doesn't work that way.

A lot of effort was made to attempt to justify the asking price. I see too much emotional attachment or unrealistic valuation here. An inflation calculator to justify sell price is a new twist though.


Best of Luck.
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Old 09-30-2015, 08:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REAL MOUNTIE View Post
We are planning to travel the Erie Canal next boating season.
So why are you selling?
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Old 09-30-2015, 09:07 PM   #26
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I love the look of this boat but find detailed specs hard to come by. I am wondering how much of the hull is balsa cored ? The only reference I can find in original brochures is
"Hull stiffened with end grain balsa where required".
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:27 AM   #27
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City: Willsboro Bay Marina
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Vessel Model: 1986 PILGRIM 40 HULL No 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donsan View Post
So why are you selling?
First, I would like to thank you for asking.

The reason motivating our decision is that we cannot cruise or sail more that 183 day in US waters per calendar year from the IRS perspective, so we file every year file the required 8840 forms, as the IRS has the right to request to file an actual US tax return. You don’t want that because you are subject to US tax on your worldwide earnings. First, you have to do a three-year calculation that determines whether or not you have a “substantial presence” in the US, based on the IRS rule.

We want to enjoy boating on Lake Champlain during the next summer seasons.

We will go back to sailing on a day sailer for less days (2 months approx.) during the summer season and use the remaining days (4 months approx) to travel in Florida and other parts of USA during the winter season.

Another reason is that we are also getting older and the winter cold is hard on us even if we live in a Condo 5 minutes from a Ski resort ( last year my wife skied 47 times and I skied 14 times and managed to fall on the hip with no fracture).

The Pilgrim 40 is made for cruising.

We will maintain and keep upgrading the boat until sold to the right person. This is why we will plan for the Erie Canal next year, why not?

The decision to sell REAL MOUNTIE was difficult and emotional. It is made, now.

May be I should go ahead and "lecture" on the the philosophy of price (agreed value and replacement value (which was 500, 000$ based on the 1989 Survey) but I have found those people who understand that philosophy don't need to be told.

Only I can say, you cannot build a Pilgrim 40 at this price today, period.

Yes, it is emotional. I prefer to talk about what an incredible "one of a kind" condition loved and exquisitely cared for vessel it is.

The boat got surveyed this spring, and the surveyor was lying on his back in the engine compartment and smiled at me and said:" Your boat smell good!" You don't know, how bad it is in some boat that I survey, my eyes are watery.." This summer I want to show your boat to my wife when we come to Willsboro Bay.." I guess he was emotional...

Like any one, we have gone to look at boats and we have seen how "tired" they are ... So one, can only imagine what was not cared or that you don't see!

A perfect example is that boat that person who said was $90k less ...just compare.

I think it is a matter of choice.

You either pay now or you pay later.

I hope these comments will answered the question.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:47 AM   #28
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Didn`t we "Redesign the Pilgrim 40", over an extended period?
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:27 AM   #29
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I'm reminded of the similarities between trawlers and motorhomes. When we decided to buy a motorhome to travel and live in we looked at used ones. After a bunch of research and looks we decided we would either buy an older Prevost, Wanderlodge, or Newell. We bought a Newell, which are custom built, factory has been building since the late 60's. These 3 brands in particular are built to a much higher standard than all of the other motorhomes on the road. In searching for "our" Newell we looked at quite a few. Prices ranged all over the place mainly due to the care and maintenance done to that particular coach. Some needed many thousands of deferred maintenance while others were "ready to go". There is no free lunch, like said above you can either pay now for a nice, ready to cruise trawler or buy a cheaper one and spend pretty much the same amount or maybe more money to get it in similar condition. Your choice. And I do understand people are looking for bargains, but do bargains always work out? Not in my experience. Even with a barn find or estate sale there is usually lots of deferred maintenance and updates needed.
Good luck with your sale!
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REAL MOUNTIE View Post
First, I would like to thank you for asking.

The reason motivating our decision is that we cannot cruise or sail more that 183 day in US waters per calendar year from the IRS perspective, so we file every year file the required 8840 forms, as the IRS has the right to request to file an actual US tax return. You don’t want that because you are subject to US tax on your worldwide earnings. First, you have to do a three-year calculation that determines whether or not you have a “substantial presence” in the US, based on the IRS rule.

We want to enjoy boating on Lake Champlain during the next summer seasons.

We will go back to sailing on a day sailer for less days (2 months approx.) during the summer season and use the remaining days (4 months approx) to travel in Florida and other parts of USA during the winter season.

Another reason is that we are also getting older and the winter cold is hard on us even if we live in a Condo 5 minutes from a Ski resort ( last year my wife skied 47 times and I skied 14 times and managed to fall on the hip with no fracture).

The Pilgrim 40 is made for cruising.

We will maintain and keep upgrading the boat until sold to the right person. This is why we will plan for the Erie Canal next year, why not?

The decision to sell REAL MOUNTIE was difficult and emotional. It is made, now.

May be I should go ahead and "lecture" on the the philosophy of price (agreed value and replacement value (which was 500, 000$ based on the 1989 Survey) but I have found those people who understand that philosophy don't need to be told.

Only I can say, you cannot build a Pilgrim 40 at this price today, period.

Yes, it is emotional. I prefer to talk about what an incredible "one of a kind" condition loved and exquisitely cared for vessel it is.

The boat got surveyed this spring, and the surveyor was lying on his back in the engine compartment and smiled at me and said:" Your boat smell good!" You don't know, how bad it is in some boat that I survey, my eyes are watery.." This summer I want to show your boat to my wife when we come to Willsboro Bay.." I guess he was emotional...

Like any one, we have gone to look at boats and we have seen how "tired" they are ... So one, can only imagine what was not cared or that you don't see!

A perfect example is that boat that person who said was $90k less ...just compare.

I think it is a matter of choice.

You either pay now or you pay later.

I hope these comments will answered the question.
Without a doubt, you have one of the nicest if not the nicest Pilgrim. I have read the blog of M/V Liberty and was quite impressed with the functionality of the boat. My only dislike is the engine, not that the Westerbeke isn't a fine engine and the generator in my boat is a Westerbeke. I believe the owner of M/V Liberty re-powered with a Beta. His may have had many more hours than yours.

You seem rather thoughtful so I assume you already considered taking the boat to FL and leaving it there to be a floating condo for the winter and hauling it at the end of the season. I also assume the IRS presence requirement pertains to the person(s) and not the boat. As a Floridian, I have always thought our government was quite generous with Canadians in permitting them to own property here and use the infrastructure without paying national or state income taxes (but no state income tax in FL!). Certainly many will disagree with that. Anyway, I would think you could find some way to work around the 183 day thing and keep your beautiful boat.

Good luck on selling it and hope you find a loving buyer. I don't think posters are telling you the boat isn't worth what you are asking but rather the market is such that buyers may be unwilling to fork up that much for a 30 year old boat no matter what its condition is. It is a tough market for older boats.
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Old 10-01-2015, 12:58 PM   #31
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City: Willsboro Bay Marina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donsan View Post
Without a doubt, you have one of the nicest if not the nicest Pilgrim. I have read the blog of M/V Liberty and was quite impressed with the functionality of the boat. My only dislike is the engine, not that the Westerbeke isn't a fine engine and the generator in my boat is a Westerbeke. I believe the owner of M/V Liberty re-powered with a Beta. His may have had many more hours than yours.

You seem rather thoughtful so I assume you already considered taking the boat to FL and leaving it there to be a floating condo for the winter and hauling it at the end of the season. I also assume the IRS presence requirement pertains to the person(s) and not the boat. As a Floridian, I have always thought our government was quite generous with Canadians in permitting them to own property here and use the infrastructure without paying national or state income taxes (but no state income tax in FL!). Certainly many will disagree with that. Anyway, I would think you could find some way to work around the 183 day thing and keep your beautiful boat.

Good luck on selling it and hope you find a loving buyer. I don't think posters are telling you the boat isn't worth what you are asking but rather the market is such that buyers may be unwilling to fork up that much for a 30 year old boat no matter what its condition is. It is a tough market for older boats.

First I want to thank you, Donsan, for your kind comments on us having one of the nicest Pilgrim 40 although we think that Pilgrim 40 are all nice.

Personally, I think M/V Liberty is so far the nicest Pilgrim 40 of the fleet. Our Westerbeke engine has been very good to us so far (touch teak wood) and it has 3489 hours ( not much for 30 years)

It is a fact that I did considered and definitely I will reconsider taking the boat in Florida if the boat doesn't find the right loving buyer.

But I also have another reason or issue regarding the boat and the persons on board in US in-land waterways: The cruising licence and particularly the renewal of the licence...

Customs and Border Protection's (CBP) has implemented the Small Vessel Reporting System (SVRS) which available to all Canadian citizens who are nationals of a Visa Waiver Program country.

We enlisted and registered (with a BR Number) with the SVRS since 2012. If you remain in Lake Champlain, you do not need a cruising licence.

When we left Lake Champlain, we had obtained our cruising license from Rouses Point U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Port of entry.

The licence is free and valid for up to 365 days (one year maximum) depending of our itinerary or Float Plan.

SVRS is good as it enabled us to report quickly and easily to CBP.

The Master shall have a Cruising license and shall report to a Call 1 (800) 432-1216 or 1 (800) 451-0393 its location when anchored or at a different port of call.

We reported 37 times during cruised in Cape Cod during summer 2012. We got used to it and the morning after the 37th reported call, we were boarded just before Albany, NY on our return trip.

Everything was OK and they were courteous and very professional.

Before we leave Lake Champlain, for our next year cruise on the Erie Canal, I will take the boat to report and obtain a cruising licence at Rouses Point U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Port of entry. i.e. If I choose to cruise the Erie Canal and decide to go to Chicago.

I must report to a 1-800-number to the Customs (Homeland Security) region as soon as I anchor or stop in any port or town during my cruising period. Officer Waterbury (SVRS manager) was very clear and specific. He said we want to know where you are and who is on board.

Therefore, I keep on Log the time, date, name of officer of Customs (Homeland Security) I report to.

Also I learned that Foreign-flagged yachts (including Canadian ones, even if they are in possession of a cruising license), are required to notify Customs (Homeland Security) when moving from one customs region to another, i.e.from Ft Lauderdale to Miami.

There are fines for vessels who do not comply.

(source*:http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/USA/?rc=Formalities )

So the biggest issue is the cruising licence renewal!

Under CBP policy, non-U.S. residents are not eligible for successive cruising licenses.

A new cruising license will not be issued unless the following two conditions have been met:

(1) At least 15 days have elapsed since the previous license either expired or was surrendered, and

(2) The vessel arrives in the U.S. from a foreign port or place.

(Customs Directive 3130-006A) CBP will want to see foreign clearance paperwork as evidence that you are arriving from a foreign location.

Non-residents are cautioned to plan carefully so that the mandatory 15-day period does not fall in the middle of a planned stay in U.S. waters. (Which is most of my situation as I want to cruise the inland waters)

It may make sense to surrender your cruising license to a CBP Officer when you leave U.S. waters and then obtain a new one when you re-enter the U.S.

Traveling outside of U.S. waters while your cruising license is still in effect does NOT fulfill the 15-day requirement.

Therefore, if I choose to take the boat to Florida, I will have to carefully plan and meet ALL the cruising licence requirements! That the issue I am facing.

Once again,Donsan,

I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain the reasons motivating the decision to sell REAL MOUNTIE to the right person who will enjoy cruising it.

Kindest regards, Normand
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:19 PM   #32
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What a pain in the ass... apparently nobody told these agencies that cruising is supposed to be fun. Give us a shout when you're around Oneida Lake, maybe we'll cross paths next summer!
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:57 PM   #33
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City: Willsboro Bay Marina
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Vessel Model: 1986 PILGRIM 40 HULL No 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
I love the look of this boat but find detailed specs hard to come by. I am wondering how much of the hull is balsa cored ? The only reference I can find in original brochures is
"Hull stiffened with end grain balsa where required".
Dear Boatpoker, I certainly appreciate your question about the hull. Actually, I met two happy Pilgrim 40 owners that are Marine Pilot in New Orleans (Hull 22) and the other a Cruise Ship captain (Hull 34).

First I am quite honoured by your credentials, being yourself a well known SAMS Accredited Marine Surveyor in Canada, a Transport Canada Licensed Master, a Transport Canada, Appointed Tonnage Surveyor, ABYC Certified Technician, ABYC Standards Certified, ABYC Certified Corrosion Analyst and BoatUS Approved Surveyor.

I wanted to answer your question to the best of my knowledge:

When I changed the Diesel tanks this spring, I installed the Moeller True Hull Vents, I examined predrilled holes in each side of the hull and it was solid fiberglass (no Balsa core).

I also had to drill the deck on each side to install the Diesel Fuel, Stainless Steel, Flange and it was solid fiberglass (no Balsa core).

REAL MOUNTIE was surveyed in 1989 by David C. Robertson, AMS.
YACHT SURVEYING & CONSULTING 3415 North A1A, Ft. Pierce, Fl 34949 Phone: 772-342-5833. Fax: 866-927-0567
Society Of Accredited Marine Surveyors

HULL CONSTRUCTION TYPE: Displacement hull with keel hung rudder.
MATERIAL: Molded FRP (fiber reinforced plastic)
EXTERIOR HULL: Cream with red boot top and black PVC rubrail.
DECK CONSTRUCTION
TYPE: Serviceable hand-laid FRP (fiberglass) weather-decks with painted cream surfaces.
MATERIAL: FRP (Fiber Reinforced Plastic) molded composite deck construction, core not sampled.
HULL-TO-DECK JOINT TYPE: Reverse overlap secured with stainless steel mechanical fasteners. The original wooden rubrail has been replaced with
a black PVC rubrail in good condition.
BEDDING COMPOUND: Appeared to be elastomeric compound.
SUPERSTRUCTURE MATERIAL/TYPE: FRP (fiber reinforced plastic) tug profile with trolley car windows, pilothouse and smoke stack, dingy stored
on port side with hardtop extending over the side decks and quarter deck supported with 1" dia. tubular stainless steel stanchions accessed via six-step ladder off the quarter deck starboard side.

The superstructure's exterior surfaces were percussion sounded with a phenolic hammer approximately every 6" to 8" and was sound with no detectable evidence of voids or delamination. A serviceable manually operated searchlight is located on the hardtop, forward - starboard side.
WINDOWS/PORTS/DOORS: The vessel is accessed via sliding doors off the quarter deck or via the pilot house doors of the port & starboard weather decks. All are serviceable and can be secured correctly.

SUPERSTRUCTURE HOUSE TO DECK JOINT: Serviceable superstructure to deck joint with no stress cracks sighted.

PILOT HOUSE TYPE: Access to the pilothouse is gained off the port & starboard weather decks and quarter deck. The lower helm station is located centerline with engine controls/instruments, navigational instruments and destroyer type stainless steel wheel.
Access to the master stateroom is to port. The hard top is accessed via a six-step ladder off the quarter deck; a decorative smoke stack is located centerline for LPG gas cylinder stowage with the upper helm station, three bench seats
and engine controls/instruments. A stainless steel safety rail runs from the pilothouse aft on the starboard side with fender holders and fenders, a dinghy is secured on chocks on the port side with launching mast/boom and 12-volt winch systems.
MATERIAL: FRP (fiber reinforced plastic).
AFT DECK: The FRP aft deck is fully enclosed with wing doors, transom seat, two wicker seats and cooler, teak planked deck
with serviceable lazerette hatch mounted centerline. All planking is well secured with the seams in good condition.

One reassuring point is that the Pilgrim 40 manufacturer is still in business contrary to so many boat builders that close or go bankrupt.

The Gozzard family still make vessels and still service the Pilgrim 40. You may contact them*:

North Castle Marine Ltd.
197 Huckins Street - P.O. Box 373
Goderich, Ontario. CANADA
N7A 4C6
Phone: (519) 524-6393
Fax: (519) 524-9180
E-mail: info@gozzard.com
Gozzard Yachts
Gozzard Yachts Brokerage - Gozzard Yachts Brokerage.

Once again, I thank you for your comments. Kind regards, Normand
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:18 PM   #34
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City: Willsboro Bay Marina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfarer View Post
What a pain in the ass... apparently nobody told these agencies that cruising is supposed to be fun. Give us a shout when you're around Oneida Lake, maybe we'll cross paths next summer!
Dear Dave,

It is the security requirements that prevails on cruising fun. We will give you a shout when we get to Oneida Lake next summer.

For your information, I wrote to U.S. Customs and Border Protection Info Center : https://help.cbp.gov/app/home/search/1


Madam, Sir, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to ask about the Cruising licence.

Before we leave Lake Champlain, for our next year cruise on the Erie Canal, I must report and obtain a cruising licence at Rouses Point U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Port of entry. i.e. If I choose to cruise the Erie Canal and decide to go to Chicago. I must report to a 1-800-number to the Customs (Homeland Security) region as soon as I anchor or stop in any port or town during my cruising period.

Officer Waterbury (SVRS manager) was very clear and specific. He said we want to know where you are and who is on board. Therefore, I keep on Log the time, date, name of officer of Customs (Homeland Security) I report to.

Also I learned that Foreign-flagged yachts (including Canadian ones, even if they are in possession of a cruising license), are required to notify Customs (Homeland Security) when moving from one customs region to another, i.e.from Ft Lauderdale to Miami. There are fines for vessels who do not comply.(source :http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/USA/?rc=Formalities )

Q1: Is that a fact?

Foreign-flagged yachts (including Canadian ones, even if they are in possession of a cruising license), are required to notify Customs (Homeland Security) when moving from one customs region to another, i.e.from Ft Lauderdale to Miami. There are fines for vessels who do not comply.
Q2: What are the penalties or fines?

My biggest issue is the Cruising Licence renewal while I am cruising in Land US waterways during a one year period (knowing that I cannot remain in US more than 183 days from the IRS perspective, we file our 8840 each calendar year) :

Under CBP policy, non-U.S. residents are not eligible for successive cruising licenses. A new license will not be issued unless the following two conditions have been met:

(1) At least 15 days have elapsed since the previous license either expired or was surrendered, and
(2) The vessel arrives in the U.S. from a foreign port or place. (Customs Directive 3130-006A) CBP will want to see foreign clearance paperwork as evidence that you are arriving from a foreign location.
Non-residents are cautioned to plan carefully so that the mandatory 15-day period does not fall in the middle of a planned stay in U.S. waters. It may make sense to surrender your cruising license to a CBP Officer when you leave U.S. waters and then obtain a new one when you re-enter the U.S. Traveling outside of U.S. waters while your cruising license is still in effect does NOT fulfill the 15-day requirement.

Q3; How can I cruise the US inland waterways (doing the Great Loop or Great circle) using less than 6 month at a time per calendar year and fulfill the requirements of the cruising licence renewal without being required to leave U.S. waters?

Q4: Do you have any suggestions?

Thank you for your service and Kindest regards,

J. R. Normand Vallée, Master
On board of Canadian Motor Vessel
REAL MOUNTIE
112-385 De Vaudreuil, Bromont, Qc Canada
J2L 0A8

I should get an answer eventually:Thanks for submitting your question. Use this reference number for follow up: #151001-001875
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:09 PM   #35
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City: Willsboro Bay Marina
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Vessel Name: REAL MOUNTIE
Vessel Model: 1986 PILGRIM 40 HULL No 28
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A great example:

Hull #12 a beautiful 1984 Pilgrim 40 was SOLD Last Listed Price:
US$ 75,000 on Yachtworld. In Miami, Florida:

1984 Pilgrim Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

It is stated: THIS BOAT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A PROJECT BOAT. IT RUNS WELL, IS FULLY OPERATIONAL, BUT HER NEXT PORT OF CALL SHOULD BE THE BOAT YARD. PRICE IS FIRM, OWNER DOESN'T HAVE TIME TO WORK ON HER.

The reason it needs to go to the yard is because the rudder has to be re-secured, there is a water leak in the shaft tube, and the bottom paint is down to the primer. It needs cosmetic detailing and the wiring is mess. With that said, it is turn key for what the owner uses it to do, go for cocktail cruises in the intracoastal.

I have no doubt that the new owner will enjoy his vessel as it is a great project to upgrade.

A Pilgrim 40 construction cost would be expensive to built in 2016. I would not hesitate to ship it to Gozzard for complete refit.

I would like to read from anyone opinion in this forum, whether he has the experience or not to estimate to the best of his knowledge the cost of material and labour on the refit project to bring this boat up to standard?

Would it be fair to say another 25,000$ for material and labor?
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:51 PM   #36
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City: Willsboro Bay Marina
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Vessel Model: 1986 PILGRIM 40 HULL No 28
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Here is another opportunity for a project boat. The asking price is 123,500$. Just plan to invest 100K (parts & labour) and she will be Bristol:
1984 Pilgrim North Castle efficient Trawler Pilothouse Power Boat For Sale -
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Old 01-05-2016, 05:27 PM   #37
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Here is another opportunity for a project boat. The asking price is 123,500$. Just plan to invest 100K (parts & labour) and she will be Bristol:
1984 Pilgrim North Castle efficient Trawler Pilothouse Power Boat For Sale -
Have you been aboard this Pilgrim 40?
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Old 01-06-2016, 09:22 AM   #38
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Hello Marty,
No I have not been on board. I was informed last week by an experienced friend who owned two Pilgrims. He said a Broker told him the demand for Pilgrims remains high. In fact, my friend believe, the Broker is closing on one this week in Florida. He saw, Thin Blue Line. It is my estimate (based on his comments and the pictures of repairs anticipated)
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Old 01-08-2016, 12:23 AM   #39
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City: Willsboro Bay Marina
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Vessel Model: 1986 PILGRIM 40 HULL No 28
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Hello again Marty,

I thought it could useful to mention that All Pilgrim 40's are not the same as they were purchased with different options.

If someone want to buy a Pilgrim 40, that person must try to find the one that fits her needs, style and cruising requirements.

As an example "PAPILLON" a beautiful Pilgrim 40 for sale at a very good price considering her equipment for the money, if it meets and fit a person needs of course:

1987 Pilgrim 40 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

As for another example Dave & Bobbi Forsman, having over 100 years of combined boating experience, have owned various sail, power (and human powered) vessels, ranging from 8' rowing prams to now "LIBERTY" a beautiful Pilgrim 40.

Dave and Bobbi went to visit "PAPILLON" and made arrangements to see her on January 4th 2016 with an eye towards having a Pilgrim 40 down south and a Pilgrim 40 up north!

You can follow them and also read interesting comments on their blog: https://pilgrimliberty.wordpress.com...age/#like-2116.

I have great admiration and respect for Dave and Bobbi, I consider them as a reference as they know the inside and out of a Pilgrim 40.

They shared and contributed with their boat projects experience to the Pilgrim 40 owners community:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/...oject_Page.htm


I hope this will be useful in understanding what makes the Pilgrim 40 so attractive and still in demand as there are only 41of them.
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Old 01-08-2016, 02:36 AM   #40
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Dave and Bobbi went to visit "PAPILLON" and made arrangements to see her on January 4th 2016 with an eye towards having a Pilgrim 40 down south and a Pilgrim 40 up north!

You can follow them and also read interesting comments on their blog: https://pilgrimliberty.wordpress.com...age/#like-2116.
They make some interesting comments on Papillon concerning the complexity the stabilizer and water maker add to the boat. I can't help but wonder if they REALLY want two Pilgrim 40's and suspect they were looking for some one else. Their trips up and down the ICW seem like too much fun!
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