Powercat trawlers vs traditional Trawlers

[Marin]

Would you like it more if you knew it can run 6.25 kt on less than 5 hp? Or on a modest 150 hp breaks 20 kt.

No. Fuel efficiency is a very minor consideration in boating for us. Far more important to us is what the boat can do: its interior configuration, its user-friendliness, its ease of operation, and its aesthetic appeal. Running an awkward or ugly boat is not something we have any interest in doing at all regardless of how fuel efficient it might be.

A big part of boating for us is being on the water in a well-designed (by our standards) boat. Something we can take pleasure in simply from its looking "right" on the water.

While I don't think the Grand Banks design is anything to write home about, it does a pretty good job of capturing the essence of the type of boat that inspired its looks, the helm-forward, small-forecabin commercial fishboat.

But Euroswoop boats, multi-hulls, solar panel boats, and so on are-- to us--- just plain ugly. We would take no pleasure--- or pride--- in being on the water in one no matter how efficient in terms of energy use it might be. We would probably be embarrassed to be seen in such a craft.

Now make sure you understand this is almost entirely subjective. This is how WE feel. It is NOT how we believe anyone else should feel. If a boater's primary interest is in efficiency and in pursuing that they build a solar panel electric catamaran or trimaran or monohull that we feel is really atrocious in appearance, we would certainly not condemn them for doing this. If they like it, that's the only thing that's relevant.

PS-- If someone made a super-energy-efficient boat that we thought looked good and had the same performance figures you listed, absolutely, we would be very interested. But nobody ever does that. All the so-called energy-efficient boats I've seen (in photos mostly) have terrible aesthetics by our standards.

 

[deckofficer]

OK then, this is how I see it. If your a weekend warrior, only getting on the water 10 weekends a year for an overnight cruise, then your in a position to sacrifice functionality for whatever form is pleasing for you. If you plan to live aboard and cruise far and wide, the efficiency and functionality would (or should) trump form, at least in my book. If I'm cruising full time, I want my Swiss Army knife type of boat, and the hell with what others think of its looks, just like my hot rod, I don't care.

 

[FlyWright]

Thanks, Marin. After your comment, I had to go back and look at it myself. Maybe you're right.....maybe it's one of those times the forward rake works. Still, one could GB the boat a bit....you know, like this Aspen "Classic". Looks a bit like a Rosborough now.

DANG!!! You're good!

 

[Marin]

If you plan to live aboard and cruise far and wide, the efficiency and functionality would (or should) trump form, at least in my book.

Depends totally on the person. In our book, if we were going to cruise the world on a full time basis, the look of the boat would be every bit as important as it is for our locally used boat. We would sacrifice efficiency to be able to cruise in a good-looking boat, something we enjoyed looking at. To us, an ugly boat is an ugly boat regardless of its purpose, and it's not anything we would want any part of.

So functionality may trump form for some people, but not all people, even people to whom efficiency is important, like the full-time cruiser.

The inability (so far) of the super-efficiency crowd to build boats-- or vehicles-- that are aesthetically pleasing is one thing that will continue to limit the popularity of these machines. For whatever reasons, most people continue to want aesthetically pleasing "things" be it a car or a spouse/partner. It's why people swoon all over Ferraris and Aston Martins and ignore Priuses in terms of vehicles to lust after.

When the day comes that the super-efficiency folks combine that with good aesthetics, be it using traditional lines or modern lines that look good, then they'll have something. Tesla has managed to do this with cars. Unfortunately, they are extremely expensive.

 

[deckofficer]

Here is something we can all agree is truly butt ugly, and from the picture you don't get an idea of its underwater form, which is hideous. It is diesel-electric and performs the almost impossible function of tightly holding its position in all conditions, whatever the winds and currents. My practical side favors function over looks, and maybe I'm in the minority on this. A cruising sailboat capable of 250 nm 24 hour runs just isn't going to look like the nice traditional sailboat that has a good day's run at 1/2 that distance.

 

[rjtrane]

Woodwork in a Power Cat

I've been on the Jet Tern power cat in Zhuhai - the interior is as nicely finished in teak as any of the Selenes. Here's a photo of our saloon - ALL the finish is teak except for the overhead. Just because there's two hulls (or more) doesn't mean you can't have a nice-looking finish. Of course, weight isn't minimal.

 

[rjtrane]

My bad! Forgot the photo!

 

[healhustler]

I've already given up my need for aesthetics over function, but there has to be something warm and precious about my boating environment. If, on the other hand, I did produce the "Swiss army knife" of trucks some time ago, and if I could do it in boats, I know with the length limitations of 40 or under, I'd have to begin with making a decision on having either one hallway of space (a skinny mono-hull), or two hallways of space with a large space between them. Faced with that, I'd take the two hallways of space and do the best I could with lightweight materials for style and beautification. It would be asymmetrical, and look like a bigger version of the Aspen Photoshop Mod I did earlier with the best I could incorporate from working designs. BTW, I know this is a boating forum, but I really enjoyed Bob's analogy of his Swiss Army Rod.

 

[Marin]

I Just because there's two hulls (or more) doesn't mean you can't have a nice-looking finish. Of course, weight isn't minimal.

It's not the interior finish that totally turns me off . It's the two or three hulls. To me, there is no way to make a multi-hull look good no matter how nice the interior finish might be.

Again, a totally subjective opinion.

 

[Codger2]

No. Fuel efficiency is a very minor consideration in boating for us. Far more important to us is what the boat can do: its interior configuration, its user-friendliness, its ease of operation, and its aesthetic appeal. Amen

A big part of boating for us is being on the water in a well-designed (by our standards) boat. Something we can take pleasure in simply from its looking "right" on the water. Amen, again.

While I don't think the Grand Banks design is anything to write home about..... I think it's a great looking boat for what it was designed for.


PS-- If someone made a super-energy-efficient boat that we thought looked good and had the same performance figures you listed, absolutely, we would be very interested. No comment as I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

Marin:
Quick question. When is your latest book "How to influence People and Make Friends" coming out?

 

[Marin]

Marin:
Quick question. When is your latest book "How to influence People and Make Friends" coming out?

The project has changed. The working title is now "How to Piss People Off so They Stay the Hell Out of Your Life with no Consequences to You Whatsoever."

I'm way too busy to write it so the project is being handled by my publisher. It's an easy one, though. It's just a compilation of specific posts to this forum with some editing and transitions to make it all flow together and to make it relevant to non-boating readers, too.

Not sure when it's coming out, though, because I keep adding new material. Amazon's been on my ass because they want to put it in their Kindle bookstore but they'll just have to wait until it's ready.

 

[deckofficer]

Reuben's main salon is too nice for me, I'm a salty old mariner. For me a aluminum unpainted hull is just fine, strong, and no painting needed. I have had light tan leather seats in a lot of my cars, and that is a favorite color and texture for me. Love leather, how it feels against the skin. Most here have seen Steve Dashew's FPB series (do you know what FPB stands for? I do, straight from Steve)? I like this, and it is a mono..........

 

[sunchaser]

Reuben's main salon is too nice for me, I'm a salty old mariner. For me a aluminum unpainted hull is just fine, strong, and no painting needed. I have had light tan leather seats in a lot of my cars, and that is a favorite color and texture for me. Love leather, how it feels against the skin. Most here have seen Steve Dashew's FPB series (do you know what FPB stands for? I do, straight from Steve)? I like this, and it is a mono..........

One look at the Dashew videos, reading Dashew's books and web site, a visit to NZ to talk to the builders or to be on an FPB in rough weather is enough to convince me why I would never consider a cat. For the interested, pull up the pilot boat YOUTUBE videos from Scotland and the North Sea to get a feeling as to a pilot boat's near invincibility on the water. Never ever would you see a cat put to these tests and survive.

Selene's Cat is pushing about $2M

 

[Erik C]

Dashew's boats are out of my reach otherwise nothing would come close.

 

[deckofficer]

Dashew's boats are out of my reach otherwise nothing would come close.

Same here.

 

[healhustler]

Dashew's boats are out of my reach otherwise nothing would come close.

Mee too. But I can dream.

 

[deckofficer]

Healhustler,

Your getting rather creative on your jpeg software.

 

[healhustler]

Healhustler,

Your getting rather creative on your jpeg software.

You may recognize the boat as "Isabel", a famous restoration of a classic mono-hull woody. The original photo was in front of the Hong Kong skyline, I think. These silly photoshop renderings are a release for me when I've been concentrating too long on something else.

 

[hollywood8118]

"A cruising sailboat capable of 250 nm 24 hour runs just isn't going to look like the nice traditional sailboat that has a good day's run at 1/2 that distance"

Your right.. a cruising sailboat that can do those distances will be a cat!.

Personally.. for a cruising I think a " trawler" a cat has merit .
Contrary to popular belief as sail boats they don't turn turtle very often.. are very comfortable to live on.. have lots of space and deck room ( most often under a grand bimini).

The reason cats are not more prolific is they cost more.

But I also totally get that they are not a mass market boat... any more than a totally electric car.

HOLLYWOOD

 

[Peter B]

The project has changed. The working title is now "How to Piss People Off so They Stay the Hell Out of Your Life with no Consequences to You Whatsoever."

I'm way too busy to write it so the project is being handled by my publisher. It's an easy one, though. It's just a compilation of specific posts to this forum with some editing and transitions to make it all flow together and to make it relevant to non-boating readers, too.

Not sure when it's coming out, though, because I keep adding new material. Amazon's been on my ass because they want to put it in their Kindle bookstore but they'll just have to wait until it's ready.

Hey Marin, you're not related to Doc Martin are you..? Do you get Doc Martin over there. If not, get it out on DVD. IT's a hoot. You could be brothers...soul mates anyway...

 

[deckofficer]

"A cruising sailboat capable of 250 nm 24 hour runs just isn't going to look like the nice traditional sailboat that has a good day's run at 1/2 that distance"

Your right.. a cruising sailboat that can do those distances will be a cat!.


HOLLYWOOD

A few cats can make that kind of 24 hour run, more tris can pull it off though, and all of Dashew's Sundeer and Deerfoot line which are long and lean monos. A good friend has a Sundeer 64, Nick aboard S/V Jedi is currently at Shelter Bay Marina in Panama, here is his S/V Jedi.








And laid back Nick.

 

[Marin]

Do you get Doc Martin over there...

Yes, we've seen all the Doc Martin episodes. Interesting role for Martin Clunes, who is a terrific comedian. The first time I saw him was in "Men Behaving Badly," the British original, not the fairly pathetic American knock-off.

 

[Peter B]

Yes, we've seen all the Doc Martin episodes. Interesting role for Martin Clunes, who is a terrific comedian. The first time I saw him was in "Men Behaving Badly," the British original, not the fairly pathetic American knock-off.

I believe they are filming series 6 even as we speak, so to speak...

I get a kick out of of it because apart from the great acting, and lovely countryside port, etc, being a Doc myself I find it sort of cathartic that he often says or does what I would love to say or do sometimes, (just sometimes...you know what I mean), but if you did it here, you'd end up on the receiving end of a complaint to the the Health Rights Commission.

He actually starred in another made for TV movie which was particularly good which featured NZ and some interesting takes on Maori culture, where he played the role of a museum official, sent out by a prestigious London museum to try and placate a Maori Village, who wanted the smoked head of a long dead chief back. He falls for one of the Maori maidens he encounters, and also finds out he was being made a sort of patsy, because they never intended to return it anyway, so he goes back and steals it and takes it back in spite of that. It is really funny, but gives quite a good insight into the native culture at the same time. Unfortunately I can't find it on DVD, but it is worth a look. No, stop press...found it, called The Man Who Lost His Head...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0995856/

A bit like Whale Rider in that respect. As an aside, I grew up often fishing off the very beach where Whale Rider was shot. We went back there in 2008...nothing has changed. I always wondered what the story was behind the carving of a human figure riding a whale atop the Marae. It was a real legend of that tribe. It was not made up to fit the story.

Sorry, thread hijack over...guilty as charged...as a moderator I'll slap my own wrist.

 

[FF]

Contrary to popular belief as sail boats they don't (cats) turn turtle very often..

Sure , BUT 1 big wave and the boat is as stable inverted as right side up.

Cats like most boats are sold on the interior space , and stability dockside, and in smooth water.

Performance could be "better" than a monohull , but seldom is.

If the hulls are over about 6-1 LB on the waterline , in theory the boat will be easier to push at higher speeds.

With even a 50% advantage (not possible) few cruisers want to run 15-20K at 1 GPH., The semi plaining boat might get to 12K with the same fuel burn .

At lower speeds the extra wetted surface of the long hulls causes more drag at usual trawler speeds 6K-8K.

Sort of a loose, loose , unless you are in love with the interior layout and volume.

 

[rjtrane]

FF:" With even a 50% advantage (not possible) few cruisers want to run 15-20K at 1 GPH., The semi plaining boat might get to 12K with the same fuel burn ."

Do you intend to say MPG?

A light cat or Tri may stay afloat for days upside down. Many monohull a that get turned onto their beam ends could founder and sink.

I tend to agree with much that has been said here. I like traditional-looking boats. I also like those were form had triumphed over function. And I agree that your darling (boat or spouse) should look good to you upon approach.

Most importantly is the fit. To your personality. Your lifestyle. Your budget. Your "real" use (vs. "imagined"). It she fits, then you'll use and enjoy her. If not, she'll collect barnacles and rust.

I have known boaters who buy a Nordhavn for the Great Loop. Kinda like having a HumVee for negotiating I 95. But it was perfect for them.

On long and lean - Francis Herreshoff designed Marco Polo, a log lean schooner. Faster that a shorter boat of the same displacement but with sails small enough for a couple to handle. I do not know of a long lean design that has enough added wet surface to make a difference

 

[deckofficer]

I have known boaters who buy a Nordhavn for the Great Loop. Kinda like having a HumVee for negotiating I 95. But it was perfect for them.

That's a good one I'll have to remember. I also have friends with a Nordhavn 43', and they with their daughter did the Great Loop but also Florida, The Keys, Bahamas, Caribbean, transited the Canal, Central America and currently in the Sea of Cortez. Here is their blog Three@Sea

It has been fun watching Alya grow up during their travels. At 11 she started a video series called "From the Pilothouse". A cable network is considering producing a series on them, here is the sizzle reel.
Three@Sea Sizzle Reel - YouTube

The age progression, at 12

Nice to see a young girl not afraid of heavy machinery while it is running.

At 16 and almost jumping ship to sailboats

 

[CPseudonym]

Perhaps we should poll the membership concerned with the possibility of a cat turning turtle.

Exactly how many posters on this forum has been aboard a boat that has rolled completely over?

Not that "almost felt like it might" or "could have". Actually rolled your boat. My guess is none to two max. Most wont ever be out in conditions approaching that dangerous.

 

[deckofficer]

Never been there Craig, and I used to push a Cal 40 hard.

 

[FF]

Do you intend to say MPG?

Yes

"Tis many a slip tween the cup and the lip"

The Marco Polo was designed (at least according to Herrishoff from his book) as a motor sailor.

The concept was a boat that could run 10K with motor or sails or usually both.

I had the pleasure of going aboard a long time ago and aklthough the boat was interesting it suffered from When it was built.

Engines ,were HEAVY and as an ocean going boat the scantlings , frames and the rest of the construction was first rate but HEAVY.

The fwd cabin or aft was only accessible thru the cockpit , hardly a delight .

A modern version probably would never sell, tho the performance could be vastly improved.

The Deerfoot 64 shows the problem, marine motorists today do not want to be down in the hull, they want to be up looking out thru a glass wall at the view.

At only $3+ million a pop the 64 is beyond most ocean voyagers ability.

I am not convinced a similar boat , sans the fancy woodwork , and many of the fun stuff, flopper stoppers at $2K rather than a $50K hydraulic fins , the boat could not be built for way less . perhaps 1/6 to 1/10 .

But KISS would have to RULE!!!

 

[AusCan]

Exactly how many posters on this forum has been aboard a boat that has rolled completely over?

Uhhmmm...yes...at least 10 or 12 times.

Mainly sailing dinghies and Hobie cats though. Nothing bigger than 20 ft.
On small sailing vessels its all part of the fun.
Actually - its part of basic dinghy sailing lessons, - a mandatory capsize.

Hmmm.... adding kayaks and canoes I could be getting close to triple digits. ( It took me many tries to learn an Eskimo roll)

I'm guessing you meant power boats though. Still at zero there.
( if you don't count the one I bailed out of before capsizing)