Convert trawler to motorsailer?

[cardude01]

I purchased a 2008 Island Packet PY Cruiser in November. The "cousin" to this boat is the SP Cruiser, which is the same boat but with a sail rig.

I bought my boat in a repo auction fairly cheap, probably because the PY doesn't have much of a following. I could turn my PY into an SP with a factory refit, and still be in the boat for 20% less than what like year model and equipped SPs are selling for now (actual sales prices from a brokers report-- not asking prices). Plus, the SPs seem to have more of a market since there are more of them.

My question is, is that worth doing? My longer range plans are to cruise the Caribbean, and if we actually do that then the refit seems to make sense for stability and get home ability, plus we can sail if we want to. If we don't make it to the Caribbean then it probably doesn't make sense.

My plan is to spend some time on the boat this summer cruising the Keys with my wife and see if the boat really fits us, and then maybe think harder about doing the refit after that.


The PY


The SP

 

[bligh]

I love the SP cruiser. (except for the hot tub). Adding sail to it seems like a logical choice depending on cost.

 

[cardude01]

I actually like the "hot tub". Kind of an interesting place to sit with the table inserted. But it does make the lines of the boat a little funky looking.

Do you think my assumption is correct about when it comes time to sell, the SP would be more desirable? Plus, the sail rig would still be fairly new if I decide to sell in say 5 years.

 

[O C Diver]

Simple answer is decide if you want to sail after this summer. You can probably buy a cruising lifetime of fuel for the price of the sail rig. Maybe the boat sells better with the sail rig. Maybe you don't recover the price of the sail rig when you sell it, who knows. I wouldn't waste the energy over thinking this till after you cruise it for the summer. If you decide to sell, then the question is pure economics.

Ted

 

[CPseudonym]

It's easy for me to spend your money and tell you to go for it but waiting a year seems more prudent. In our case we simply didn't know what we didn't know after purchasing our boat. I suspect it is the same with many boat owners but a year or two of use really puts feathers on the darts of your ideas.

How could a sail rig adversely affect your current use? Bridge or dock clearance and such. If halyard slap is annoying in the marina it won't be more palatable in the anchorage you choose. That kind of stuff. Motor sailors are a niche market but it sounds like your powerboat version may be more so.

 

[dhmeissner]

I would do it. If you don't like it, sell it to me in a few years.

 

[Larry M]

I would do it...

2012, we were in Trinidad and later that year in Grenada. We spent time with the then current owner of Bruce Van Sant's boat, author of Gentleman's Guide to Passages South. The boat is a Shucker 440. The current owner was on his way to Saint Martins to put a mast back on. Bruce got rid of the standing rigging and turned the Shucker into a full displacement trawler. If you want to do the EC in a FD vessel, stabilization is important.

 

[cardude01]

2012, we were in Trinidad and later that year in Grenada. We spent time with the then current owner of Bruce Van Sant's boat, author of Gentleman's Guide to Passages South. The boat is a Shucker 440. The current owner was on his way to Saint Martins to put a mast back on. Bruce got rid of the standing rigging and turned the Shucker into a full displacement trawler. If you want to do the EC in a FD vessel, stabilization is important.

That's funny. Reading Bruce's book got me looking at Schuckers. I also looked at the SP Cruisers (kind of like a modern-day Schucker IMO) but didn't want to pay that kind of $$$.

Finally, I stumbled onto this PY and liked it, partly because it was similar to a demasted Schucker maybe? Who knows...

Now I'm thinking about remasting a PY. ?

But I agree, I probably need to cruise around for longer than a summer before I spend the money to refit my boat with a sail rig. I have this buddy who is a sailor however, and he's making me think in strange ways.

 

[cardude01]

I would do it. If you don't like it, sell it to me in a few years.

Deal. Let's draw up the option contract now so we both have a contingency plan. What's that option worth?

??

 

[caltexflanc]

Is the sail version exactly the same below the water line?
Contrary to the SP/PY balance of sales, motorsailers have never enjoyed much popularity, having a tendency to do two things rather poorly compared to purpose built boats. Go cruising for awhile, get out there. Pay attention to how many actual cruising sailboats have their sails up at any point in time, let alone motorsailers.

 

[bligh]

Do you think my assumption is correct about when it comes time to sell, the SP would be more desirable? Plus, the sail rig would still be fairly new if I decide to sell in say 5 years.

Last time I looked on YW, there was only 1 used sp cruiser for sale. So the answer is most likely, "yes".

 

[cardude01]

Is the sail version exactly the same below the water line?
Contrary to the SP/PY balance of sales, motorsailers have never enjoyed much popularity, having a tendency to do two things rather poorly compared to purpose built boats. Go cruising for awhile, get out there. Pay attention to how many actual cruising sailboats have their sails up at any point in time, let alone motorsailers.

Yes, it's the same. Also the same 5000 LB ballast.

I agree. Need to use the boat as is for awhile, but the boat is in FL and I'm in Texas so my mind wanders...

 

[AusCan]

cd - I agree with doing it, and also not rushing into it.

Make a list of all the differences between the PY & the SP. Mast, sails, standing rigging, running rigging are obvious. Is the rudder the same? Is deck reinforcing required for mast, chain plates or winch installations?

Then you can start sniffing around for deals. It may be possible to find a wrecked hull with all the main components required for the makeover. Then it will only require a large amount of money and hundreds of hours labour. Much better than a massive amount of money and hundreds of hours labour.

btw -Don't expect your sailing friends to fully agree with your proposal. A motorsailer owner is a bit like a halfbreed. You'll never be accepted completely by either community.

 

[cardude01]

Last time I looked on YW, there was only 1 used sp cruiser for sale. So the answer is most likely, "yes".

Just looked at the SPs for sale on YW. Looks like two for sale. Asking like $400k for each for the ones in the US. Strange thing is, two are for sale in in the UK and they are waaaaay cheaper-- $264k and $317k. I don't understand that.

http://m.yachtworld.com/mobile/sear...luom=126&cit=true&slim=quick&sm=3&Ntk=boatsEN

 

[Pack Mule]

I'm with Ted on this to use the boat at least one summer . My boat has a ceiling fan over the back deck . That was the first thing I was going to take off when I got the boat . But I left it on and now I don't think we could live without it . The sail rig to me kinda balances out the look of the boat but it would be a pricey add on .

 

[cardude01]

I'm with Ted on this to use the boat at least one summer . My boat has a ceiling fan over the back deck . That was the first thing I was going to take off when I got the boat . But I left it on and now I don't think we could live without it . The sail rig to me kinda balances out the look of the boat but it would be a pricey add on .

Yeah, the full factory rig is very pricey with all the electric winches and roller furling sails and adding the chain plates and running the lines under the saloon floor etc etc.

I wonder what it would cost to rig up a simple steady/get home sail. Maybe $10000 or so? Can you do a short mast without having to mount chain plates?

 

[healhustler]

cd - I agree with doing it, and also not rushing into it.

btw -Don't expect your sailing friends to fully agree with your proposal. A motorsailer owner is a bit like a halfbreed. You'll never be accepted completely by either community.

Yeah, Bill. Your riding dangerously on the edge of acceptability to TF trawler puritans already, a place where subsequent anchor selection or esteemed hull-displacement classification may be the only rescue options available!

I think you've got a really good boat there. Don't do what I did. Spend the bucks on fun instead of equipment and improvements.

 

[eyschulman]

While you use the boat look for a used sail rig of similar size or shorter mast. You really don't need all the fancy stuff a reliable roller furling head sail and lazy jacks and jiffy reefing will do. If I were doing it I would use about 3/4th of the mast height a full batten main and small working jib and use the boat as a true motor sailor. That way you would hardly ever have to reef and would have all the stability get home and efficency advantages.

 

[AusCan]

Yeah, the full factory rig is very pricey with all the electric winches and roller furling sails and adding the chain plates and running the lines under the saloon floor etc etc.

I wonder what it would cost to rig up a simple steady/get home sail. Maybe $10000 or so? Can you do a short mast without having to mount chain plates?

It all depends on the sail area and the stresses involved, and how solid your deck to hull attachment is . I only have a chainplate bolted to the bow for the the forestay. The other standing rigging is just bolted through the deck with a backing plate. But I only have 300 ft2 of sail area. I'd guess the factory SP has at least double this amount of sail.

 

[AusCan]

While you use the boat look for a used sail rig of similar size or shorter mast. You really don't need all the fancy stuff a reliable roller furling head sail and lazy jacks and jiffy reefing will do. If I were doing it I would use about 3/4th of the mast height a full batten main and small working jib and use the boat as a true motor sailor. That way you would hardly ever have to reef and would have all the stability get home and efficency advantages.

A motorsailer will never be a club racer; Keep it simple, reliable and easy to operate.
Keep your eye out for a rig with about 500 square feet of total sail area.

 

[LarryM]

Most successful motorsailers have SA/D (sail area/displacement) ratios between 12.0 and 14.0. Assuming your boat has a displacement of about 23,000# your rig should have a sail area between 610 and 710. SA/D of less than 12.0 will leave your boat underpowered, even by motorsailer standards.

The Island Packet 41 SP has published sail area of 733 and a SA/D of 14.5.

The idea of a fully-battened main with a solid vang, and a self-tending jib of less than 100% foretriangle would make it a very easily handled rig. I doubt that you need electric winches, but you definitely want to use the factory chainplates. The forces generated by a rig that size on a boat of that displacement and beam increase very quickly.

You can run the numbers using this SA/D calculator.

 

[markpierce]

Part of keeping it simple(r) is to have roller furling and no sail hanks or tracks. A boom isn't even necessary.


Not a motorsailer:





Mast is on a tabernacle resting on the pilothouse's fiberglass roof mounted on a steel superstructure. Seven stays hold it up: two split stays going to each stern quarter gunwale, two lower guys attached to the pilothouse sides, two upper stays attached to the hull gunwales, and a bow stay attached to the stem. The rig will get one home if it is down wind, but it's not designed to sail the boat. The hull is pure motorboat and sails small, but with beam winds it can help stabilize the boat and add a half-knot or so if one isn't already powering near hull speed.

 

[FF]

"Mast is on a tabernacle" ,,although your rig will be 100% larger , I would install a tabernacle too.

The ability to unrig the stick would be best for coastal work, and the Loop.

Full sailing ability (ghosting) will not be required , so I would look for a used rig .

Smaller than stock will be OK for your intended use. In the Windwards 15K is common and its a reach.

For Get Home use ,( For the sq rt of the LWL speeds), a remarkable tiny amount of sail is required .

I was demoing a Wood Freeman AP on a Vagabond 46 ft boat and just the inner stay sail gave 6K , adding the main , fore stay sail and mizzen added speed , but only 1.5K

To have any windward sailing ability a better prop will be required as the drag is huge on a 3 blade.

Paul Luke makes props for motoring that feather , far more powerful underway than a prop made for a sail boat to power on occasion.

A 90/90 is a great way to cruise , the 1930s 50/50 is long dead as the early compromises need not be made.

AS a sail boat 10% is lost to the weight of the engine and drag of the prop.

As a motor boat 10% is lost to the space of the sails , the weight and air drag of the rig.

If you intend to actually sail, not just broad reach or wallow downwind , roller shade head sails wont cut it.

A fully battened main with broad dutch style headboard is the best mainsail made for cruising.

When headed into the wind the sail will not flap and tear it self apart.Very useful setting or sailing out the anchor , or motoring inshore following a channel.

 

[cardude01]

One issue with not going for the full factory refit is while it would be cheaper, I probably would not get any money back out of it when I sold it. The other, bigger, negative is I don't know how to install a sail rig,
so if the factory doesn't do it I would not know who to turn to for a quality install.

With the full factory SP refit I THINK I would actually be increasing the value of the boat to what the SPs are selling for.

All that being said, I will probably just do nothing for now (many times the best course of action for my ideas) and enjoy the boat for at least a year.

 

[psneeld]

As long as the attachment points at the hull are already there, and hardware just needs to be attached, there are plenty of very talented expert riggers out there. If hull strengthening is required, while they still might do it, factory transmitted engineering details may be required. Especially if any hull warranty is involved.

They actually may suggest plenty of improvements over a factory install.

 

[cardude01]

"Mast is on a tabernacle" ,,although your rig will be 100% larger , I would install a tabernacle too.

The ability to unrig the stick would be best for coastal work, and the Loop.

Full sailing ability (ghosting) will not be required , so I would look for a used rig .

Smaller than stock will be OK for your intended use. In the Windwards 15K is common and its a reach.

For Get Home use ,( For the sq rt of the LWL speeds), a remarkable tiny amount of sail is required .

I was demoing a Wood Freeman AP on a Vagabond 46 ft boat and just the inner stay sail gave 6K , adding the main , fore stay sail and mizzen added speed , but only 1.5K

To have any windward sailing ability a better prop will be required as the drag is huge on a 3 blade.

Paul Luke makes props for motoring that feather , far more powerful underway than a prop made for a sail boat to power on occasion.

A 90/90 is a great way to cruise , the 1930s 50/50 is long dead as the early compromises need not be made.

AS a sail boat 10% is lost to the weight of the engine and drag of the prop.

As a motor boat 10% is lost to the space of the sails , the weight and air drag of the rig.

If you intend to actually sail, not just broad reach or wallow downwind , roller shade head sails wont cut it.

A fully battened main with broad dutch style headboard is the best mainsail made for cruising.

When headed into the wind the sail will not flap and tear it self apart.Very useful setting or sailing out the anchor , or motoring inshore following a channel.

Thanks for the info FF. I look forward to you looking over my boat when I get to your dock.

 

[fryedaze]

Check out a sailing Grand Banks.
A grand banks with a hybrid twist | Soundings Online

 

[Mule]

Why not Paravanes? Should keep your air draft down, give you the stabilization needed. Likely cheaper, certainly less complicated.

 

[cardude01]

Check out a sailing Grand Banks.
A grand banks with a hybrid twist | Soundings Online

Wow. What an adventurous life they have led. Makes me feel a little anxious about my relatively boring life. Don't get me wrong--I've had a good life so far. Owned a couple of good businesses, made decent money, good wife, smart/healthy kids.

But I do yearn for some adventure, and since I've turned 50 that desire has grown much stronger. Frustratingly, my wife's sense of adventure is not yet on the same page. I need to work on that...

As for that sailing Grand Banks, I think it's cool as hell they figured out what would work for them. That's what I'm trying to do, although I'm starting out with much less boating knowledge and skills.

 

[cardude01]

Why not Paravanes? Should keep your air draft down, give you the stabilization needed. Likely cheaper, certainly less complicated.

I like the idea of paravanes for stability, but I was trying to incorporate an alternate means of propulsion as well. I thought the sail rig, while expensive, would do a decent job at both. If I give up on the need/want for alternate propulsion I think paravanes are the best plan, if they can be installed on this boat that is.